Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
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Topic author - Posts: 547
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Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Had a good day getting started on the rebuild of my model T rear axle with dad. It goes under my soon to be on the road 1915 cut down touring roadster pickup. Using some of dad's home made jigs, this is his third axle rebuild and my first. I'm learning and he still is too. Trying to do it right guided by Mr. Chaffin's book.
Today was just a disassembly day. Good we took it apart. Babbitt thrust washers, a sheared off pin at the universal joint, a terrible axle end and other minor maladies were discovered and will be corrected prior to reassembly. Several times today we both said we'd never regularly drive a new to us T without going through the rear. Too many small issues that can be found and caught before they become bigger ones.
I'll update this thread as we go through the process. The axle will be completely refreshed mechanically to make it dependable and SAFE and left alone cosmetically. Thought folks would enjoy a thread like this with plenty of photos to ogle, and enjoy
Today was just a disassembly day. Good we took it apart. Babbitt thrust washers, a sheared off pin at the universal joint, a terrible axle end and other minor maladies were discovered and will be corrected prior to reassembly. Several times today we both said we'd never regularly drive a new to us T without going through the rear. Too many small issues that can be found and caught before they become bigger ones.
I'll update this thread as we go through the process. The axle will be completely refreshed mechanically to make it dependable and SAFE and left alone cosmetically. Thought folks would enjoy a thread like this with plenty of photos to ogle, and enjoy
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Last edited by Retro54 on Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Topic author - Posts: 547
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Some more shots
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Last edited by Retro54 on Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Topic author - Posts: 547
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Some more shots
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Last edited by Retro54 on Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Topic author - Posts: 547
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Some more shots
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Last edited by Retro54 on Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Topic author - Posts: 547
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Last shots until next time!
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Last edited by Retro54 on Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Topic author - Posts: 547
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Forgot a shot of the terrible axle end! There should be threads all the way out... right? Haha.. a salvaged axle will replace this one.
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
The oil return springs on the axles can be installed by removing the outer bearing on the axle and sliding the spring onto the axle. It was not necessary to split the housings to install.
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Topic author - Posts: 547
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Good to know! We never installed any, so didn't know. The safety wire doesn't quite look like a nice tight Ford installation, so we are still leaning on this being apart once or so... of not, that Babbitt is like brand new for it to be 1915 oem.Jack Putnam, in Ohio wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:17 amThe oil return springs on the axles can be installed by removing the outer bearing on the axle and sliding the spring onto the axle. It was not necessary to split the housings to install.
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
I wonder if the oil return springs will do anything if they are loose around the axle like the picture?
Mark Strange
Hillsboro, MO
1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)
Hillsboro, MO
1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
That is what is commonly known as the 1913/'14 style rear end. They were actually used a bit longer than that. Many late 1912 models beginning about July of 1912 used that style, as did early 1915 cars. Both the earlier 1912/'15 rear ends like yours, and the later 1915/'16 rear ends were used randomly from the factory for the first few months of calendar year 1915. Years ago, original survivor cars built as late as June were sometimes seen with the earlier rear ends, however there was always some doubt that maybe the rear end had been changed at some time in its past. Back in the 1960s and '70s, most of the hobby felt a need to correct such "errors" and replaced what they perceived as anachronisms, even though in many cases they were originally manufactured that way. Because of that, a lot of those things mostly don't exist today.
I would suggest keeping it the way it was.
Original era photographs rarely show enough detail of the rear end to know which style the car had. In spite of that, I have seen a few era photographs showing the 1912/'15 rear end in early 1915 cars. If I can find one in the next several days (I have thousands of era photographs saved on my computer!)? I will try to post it here so you could have evidence to support your car as being correct. If I don't post it? I didn't find it (I lost nearly a thousand saved photos to a computer partial meltdown a few years ago).
Regardless how nice those 'Babbitt' washers look? DO NOT USE THEM! They were alright a hundred years ago. And if they did fail, at the speeds and on the roads of the day? One limped it home, no harm, no foul.
Unfortunately, the metals used in that 'Babbitt' mix, are seriously susceptible to chemical reactions over the years that have made the 'Babbitt" brittle. How brittle varies from one washer or rear end, to the next. There is no safe way to know if any one of them is marginally safe to use or not. So replacing them is the only right thing to do.
I put Babbitt in '--' because although the material is technically Babbitt, it is not the same Babbitt as used in a model T's bearings. And the reason "Babbitt" is capitalized, is that it was named after the fellow that invented the stuff back in the early/mid 1800s.
I would suggest keeping it the way it was.
Original era photographs rarely show enough detail of the rear end to know which style the car had. In spite of that, I have seen a few era photographs showing the 1912/'15 rear end in early 1915 cars. If I can find one in the next several days (I have thousands of era photographs saved on my computer!)? I will try to post it here so you could have evidence to support your car as being correct. If I don't post it? I didn't find it (I lost nearly a thousand saved photos to a computer partial meltdown a few years ago).
Regardless how nice those 'Babbitt' washers look? DO NOT USE THEM! They were alright a hundred years ago. And if they did fail, at the speeds and on the roads of the day? One limped it home, no harm, no foul.
Unfortunately, the metals used in that 'Babbitt' mix, are seriously susceptible to chemical reactions over the years that have made the 'Babbitt" brittle. How brittle varies from one washer or rear end, to the next. There is no safe way to know if any one of them is marginally safe to use or not. So replacing them is the only right thing to do.
I put Babbitt in '--' because although the material is technically Babbitt, it is not the same Babbitt as used in a model T's bearings. And the reason "Babbitt" is capitalized, is that it was named after the fellow that invented the stuff back in the early/mid 1800s.
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Topic author - Posts: 547
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Wayne, thank you so much for the wisdom and info! Much appreciated. Yes, the Babbitt is being replaced, that is one of the main reasons for disassembly, although everything in the rear is getting disassembled and cleaned and inspected before reassembly.Wayne Sheldon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:00 pmThat is what is commonly known as the 1913/'14 style rear end. They were actually used a bit longer than that. Many late 1912 models beginning about July of 1912 used that style, as did early 1915 cars. Both the earlier 1912/'15 rear ends like yours, and the later 1915/'16 rear ends were used randomly from the factory for the first few months of calendar year 1915. Years ago, original survivor cars built as late as June were sometimes seen with the earlier rear ends, however there was always some doubt that maybe the rear end had been changed at some time in its past. Back in the 1960s and '70s, most of the hobby felt a need to correct such "errors" and replaced what they perceived as anachronisms, even though in many cases they were originally manufactured that way. Because of that, a lot of those things mostly don't exist today.
I would suggest keeping it the way it was.
Original era photographs rarely show enough detail of the rear end to know which style the car had. In spite of that, I have seen a few era photographs showing the 1912/'15 rear end in early 1915 cars. If I can find one in the next several days (I have thousands of era photographs saved on my computer!)? I will try to post it here so you could have evidence to support your car as being correct. If I don't post it? I didn't find it (I lost nearly a thousand saved photos to a computer partial meltdown a few years ago).
Regardless how nice those 'Babbitt' washers look? DO NOT USE THEM! They were alright a hundred years ago. And if they did fail, at the speeds and on the roads of the day? One limped it home, no harm, no foul.
Unfortunately, the metals used in that 'Babbitt' mix, are seriously susceptible to chemical reactions over the years that have made the 'Babbitt" brittle. How brittle varies from one washer or rear end, to the next. There is no safe way to know if any one of them is marginally safe to use or not. So replacing them is the only right thing to do.
I put Babbitt in '--' because although the material is technically Babbitt, it is not the same Babbitt as used in a model T's bearings. And the reason "Babbitt" is capitalized, is that it was named after the fellow that invented the stuff back in the early/mid 1800s.
This car is a January 1915 Beaudette touring. While the engine was replaced sometime before 1962, the remainder of the car does not show signs of being 'pieced together' and has enough of the 'right parts' for a car being assembled in the early part of the 1915 calendar year. That being said, it is a cut down touring and the back half of the car and rear fenders were long gone before I got it. I really, really appreciate your information on the rear axle in reference to 1915. Jibes with what I've read on Royce's website and other post regarding early model year 1915 cars.
I would really enjoy seeing the period photos and look forward to seeing one of you can find them. If you frequent Fall Hershey, you'll be able to see the car in the Chocolate field and I'd enjoy meeting you.
Andy
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
The Canadians did the same thing, using up older parts in the assembly of later cars. I know of one 1915 original and intact tourer, now restored, which not only had the earlier back axle assembly, it also had the two piece riveted steering case on the steering column.
Allan from down under.
Allan from down under.
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
A January built body would be a very early 1915 open car. Bodies may or may not have sat at the factory for awhile, and most likely would have been assembled on a car by March at the latest assuming the body did not have production flaws that needed to be fixed. If I recall correctly from Royce (who has done serious research into the early 1915 models!), only about a thousand touring cars were assembled in January. So your car was likely a very early 1915 model touring car.
Allen, Quite a few USA early 1915 cars also had the riveted steering gear cases on them! Other odd things included the transition front fenders with four rivet brackets like earlier years, but the 1915 bill and beads. When I was getting started in this hobby, I met a lot of people with late 1914s that had early 1915 engines. Most of those were changed out to "correct an error" and replaced with 1914 or even 1913 engines. We now KNOW that the 1914 style runabouts and touring cars were being manufactured as late as April of 1915 and the early 1915 engines in those cars were likely correct from the factory.
A lot of early 1915s had the four rivet front fenders, most of those got replaced by the more common three rivet 1915/'16 fenders. Again, always said to "correct an error". Personally, I think a lot of honest history was destroyed by hobbyists a half century ago. I do hope people are learning to do better?
I looked through a few hundred photos so far, and found this one.
From the look of the curves transitioning from the 'pumpkin' to the tubes, I am fairly sure this early 1915 chassis has the 1912/'15 twelve rivet rear end.
It looks to have the later one-piece steering gear case.
Allen, Quite a few USA early 1915 cars also had the riveted steering gear cases on them! Other odd things included the transition front fenders with four rivet brackets like earlier years, but the 1915 bill and beads. When I was getting started in this hobby, I met a lot of people with late 1914s that had early 1915 engines. Most of those were changed out to "correct an error" and replaced with 1914 or even 1913 engines. We now KNOW that the 1914 style runabouts and touring cars were being manufactured as late as April of 1915 and the early 1915 engines in those cars were likely correct from the factory.
A lot of early 1915s had the four rivet front fenders, most of those got replaced by the more common three rivet 1915/'16 fenders. Again, always said to "correct an error". Personally, I think a lot of honest history was destroyed by hobbyists a half century ago. I do hope people are learning to do better?
I looked through a few hundred photos so far, and found this one.
From the look of the curves transitioning from the 'pumpkin' to the tubes, I am fairly sure this early 1915 chassis has the 1912/'15 twelve rivet rear end.
It looks to have the later one-piece steering gear case.
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
I zoomed in as close as the picture would allow. While the modern digital world offers a great deal of information with just a few computer clicks, digitized images often loose considerable detail if they are not handled with extreme levels of resolution data. I have seen glass plate photos digitized on sites like Shorpy that one can see scratches in a single brick in a building across the street! Too many photos when zoomed in close have lost way too much detail in the digitization process. I suspect the original prints of this photo had considerable more detail in them.
Not likely I will ever get to Hershey. Too far for me with my limited budgets.
Not likely I will ever get to Hershey. Too far for me with my limited budgets.
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Found another one! Might not be quite the definitive example (which would be an open car early 1915?)? It is an early 1915 couplet, but clearly has the twelve rivet rear end. Being a couplet, it could have been manufactured as early as October of 1914, so use of the earlier rear end may not have been unusual.
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Awesome info Wayne, thank you. I totally understand about Hershey. I've lived 15 minutes away my entire life, so I'm spoiled.Wayne Sheldon wrote: ↑Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:46 amA January built body would be a very early 1915 open car. Bodies may or may not have sat at the factory for awhile, and most likely would have been assembled on a car by March at the latest assuming the body did not have production flaws that needed to be fixed. If I recall correctly from Royce (who has done serious research into the early 1915 models!), only about a thousand touring cars were assembled in January. So your car was likely a very early 1915 model touring car.
Allen, Quite a few USA early 1915 cars also had the riveted steering gear cases on them! Other odd things included the transition front fenders with four rivet brackets like earlier years, but the 1915 bill and beads. When I was getting started in this hobby, I met a lot of people with late 1914s that had early 1915 engines. Most of those were changed out to "correct an error" and replaced with 1914 or even 1913 engines. We now KNOW that the 1914 style runabouts and touring cars were being manufactured as late as April of 1915 and the early 1915 engines in those cars were likely correct from the factory.
A lot of early 1915s had the four rivet front fenders, most of those got replaced by the more common three rivet 1915/'16 fenders. Again, always said to "correct an error". Personally, I think a lot of honest history was destroyed by hobbyists a half century ago. I do hope people are learning to do better?
I looked through a few hundred photos so far, and found this one.
1915newearlychassis.jpg
From the look of the curves transitioning from the 'pumpkin' to the tubes, I am fairly sure this early 1915 chassis has the 1912/'15 twelve rivet rear end.
It looks to have the later one-piece steering gear case.
Sharing info like this is what makes the hobby fun. I'll have to examine your photos closer on the laptop. Thank you very much for taking the time to look through your stash. Here is a shot of my front. Fenders have the 4 rivet brackets. I can't wait to get this car on the road, it'll be fun!
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Got back to the home garage on Friday and spent a relaxing afternoon with Dad, taking the last of the rear axle apart, organizing parts, and checking some against tolerances to see if they need replacing. Sure is coming along ! Dad has been working steadily cleaning things up between the last time out, which helps me out a lot staying on track with getting this back together. Not much more cleaning to do, soon it is time for reassembly! I'll post some photos in a few minutes showing the progress. Not too much to see, but everyone likes pictures right??
Andy
Andy
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Last edited by Retro54 on Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
More pictures! That took more than a few minutes!
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
The car... awaiting the rebuilt rear axle and new rubber!
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Got out to dads garage July 3rd and got the new wear parts installed in the the driveshaft and the driveshaft ready to go back in the car. Next time will be the rear axle and housings. Getting there!
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Some more shots!
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Drive shaft pix shows 1 washer. Should be 3 pieces. 2 thrust washers & a caged ball bearing between.
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
We prefer cage-less free range ball bearings. More natural that way.
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
You didn't catch my joke... on these earlier ones there are two 'race washers' and 15 free floating ball bearings. Not shown in the photos to protect the innocent.speedytinc wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:09 pmLove to see a pix of it. Is that something you came across thru a T vender or your research?
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
That explains it. I see that now. I dont use this type too often. Thanks.
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Some more updates from the last few weeks of Re-assembling the 1915 era rear axle for the RPU. Gonna be a big photo dump, as it's in the truck now.
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Next Steps in our process... we are not cigar smokers.. but a neighbor is! The boxes make great parts storage units for parts such as those on the rear axle. Each box is a different sub-assembly and different side of the axle.
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Last edited by Retro54 on Sun Aug 08, 2021 10:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
And yet another set of pics!
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- A roller bearing greased with Lucas Red N Tacky grease is back home in a new sleeve and supporting the axle end. Fun fact, if you do not get the new inner seal seated correctly in the axle housing, the sleeve will not go in far enough and even if it LOOKS right, that darn roller bearing will not go in. We learned this the frustrating way, but knowledge gained is knowledge earned!
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
And yet another set of photos... these rear ends are a lot of work! haha
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- The new emergency brake shoes (From Langs) have a lining bonded to them. The original ones are just metal as we all know. With the service bake is located in the transmission, having good emergency brakes is a minimum necessity to ensure safe driving. A set of auxiliary bakes are certainly in my future, but not right away, need to get the car complete first and then spend $$ on extras.
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Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Now to get this thing in the car. My brother (Also a member of the message board) has a Weaver Twin Auto jack. He lent it to the project and that's what we used to install and un install the axle. What a life saver! Such a simple tool makes installation much easier! Now the next step is to paint my freshly sandblasted and primed rims, retrofit the new rubber stem tubes with old metal schraders, and mount the Universal T Drivers and then learn to drive the darn thing! haha. I can't wait. Hope people enjoyed looking at all the photos. My father and I are not anywhere near experts, but with this being his third rear he's rebuilt, we keep learning a bit each time (Mostly from manuals and other users on this board). Cheers!
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- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:56 pm
- First Name: Frank
- Last Name: Brandi
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Speedster (1919 w 1926)
- Location: Moline IL
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Thank you for the photo sequence. It really helps augment the written instructions.
I am about to tackle the similar, ' 26 axle with the Adjustable Pinion assembly..
I am about to tackle the similar, ' 26 axle with the Adjustable Pinion assembly..
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Topic author - Posts: 547
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:40 pm
- First Name: Andrew
- Last Name: Blaydon
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Cut-down touring
- Location: Middletown
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
You're welcome for sure! We certainly follow the book too. But I'm a visual guy too... Who doesn't like photos? Haha. I think the parts themselves are fun to look at. Good luck with the big drum. My brother, DanB posted a similar thread when he rebuilt his large drum ruxtle with Dad last year.
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- Posts: 6435
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
- First Name: Scott
- Last Name: Conger
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13, '15, '19, '23
- Location: Clark, WY
- Board Member Since: 2005
Re: Cut-down Touring Pickup - rear end rebuild thread
Envious of your being able to work with your dad. My dad is 2400 miles away and we don't visit often these days
Enjoy these moments while you can.
Enjoy these moments while you can.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured