Title Question

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Oldav8tor
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Title Question

Post by Oldav8tor » Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:21 pm

Does anyone have recent experience in getting a title for a Model T in Michigan that has none? A friend is looking at a '21 that was inherited after the passing of the former owner and supposedly there is no title on the vehicle. We have yet to discuss this in detail with the seller but want to go prepared with the right questions.

Ten years ago I was able to title a ex-army Jeep after they searched the VIN and I got a written appraisal. I don't know if it's so simple now.
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Humblej
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Re: Title Question

Post by Humblej » Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:50 pm

I did it in Michigan before the covid shutdown. had bought an out of state model TT with just a bill of sale. being from out of state I had to get a surity bond from my local insurance co., estimate the weight, and did the forms at the SOS office. took 2 visits to SOS office. Received the title a couple of weeks later. Easy.

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TRDxB2
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Re: Title Question

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:51 pm

Oldav8tor wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:21 pm
Does anyone have recent experience in getting a title for a Model T in Michigan that has none? A friend is looking at a '21 that was inherited after the passing of the former owner and supposedly there is no title on the vehicle. We have yet to discuss this in detail with the seller but want to go prepared with the right questions.

Ten years ago I was able to title a ex-army Jeep after they searched the VIN and I got a written appraisal. I don't know if it's so simple now.
Here is what I found
https://eforms.com/bill-of-sale/mi/mich ... l-of-sale/

Required Documents
Bill of Sale (Form TR-207);
Odometer Disclosure Statement (Form BVDR-108);
Original Certificate of Title (if lost or damaged, see Replacing a Title); https://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7-1 ... --,00.html
Valid Michigan Driver’s License;
Completed Application for Michigan Vehicle Title (Form TR-11L), if the vehicle is transferred from out of state;
Registration Fees;
Proof of Insurance with the following minimum requirements:
Personal injury protection;
Property protection;
Residual bodily injury/property damage liability insurance;
Motor Vehicle Power of Attorney, if a representative will act on behalf of the vehicle owner in any titling or registering matters.

If all else fails"If I lost the previous title before transferring the vehicle into my name and I can't find the previous owner, how can I get a title for my vehicle?" https://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7-1 ... --,00.html
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
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Re: Title Question

Post by John kuehn » Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:04 pm

I don’t live in Michigan but if it does not have a title that means the selling price goes down considering what you may have to go through in getting one. It’s can be a real hassle in time and expense to get one. I would deduct at least $500.00 from the asking price if it’s a decent car to begin with. You may can get the seller to give you a bill of sale to start with but the title itself can be another question altogether.
When you go to your states DMV just give them the basic information to start with if you can only get a bill of sale. To much information can confuse these folks since most don’t deal with old antique cars.
I would make sure that the car has the original engine that will match the year of the car. To some people who you have to deal with with the paperwork that can be very diffulcult if they start asking lots of questions about the car. Getting a bonded title is usually the way to go after all the other ways would be considered. Been there and done this in Texas to finally get it done.


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Re: Title Question

Post by John kuehn » Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:50 pm

Looking at the earlier post about what it takes to get a missing title replaced I’m glad I live in Texas and didn’t have to do all of what’s required in Michigan. Hopefully it will be easier and you won’t have to go through all of that. This is why the asking price has to come down in my view.
What I had to do for my 21 Touring was to go to the DMV and here in Texas that’s to check the serial number and to see if the T was stolen and here in Texas cars that are 25 years or older the records are expunged after 25 years. After that I went to a bonded title company that deals with antique cars and they did the rest. It took about 3-4 weeks and that was it.

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Re: Title Question

Post by varmint » Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:06 pm

If I were to drive up to Michigan with a trailer, I would jot down the engine number and pay for the history from one of those online car services and hopefully it's not stolen. Being a 1921, there is no number on the frame. I would ask for any old proof of insurance to see the number. We would complete a Bill of Sale with a notary public officiating. I would pay the notary fee unless the seller's bank has one for free. Back in Louisiana, I would have a title in two weeks.
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Re: Title Question

Post by Dan Hatch » Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:17 pm

Go to your state web site for that department and read the law. It should tell you everything you need to know. Is the vehicle from the state you want a title from? Does your state even require a title for a car that old?
Here in Alabama we did not issue titles till 1975. So if I sell you a T, I can give a title even if you want one. But your state is required to issue you one as long as the T is registered in my State.
Again, read your state law and find out what you are required to have. Good luck. Dan


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Re: Title Question

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:44 pm

Tim,

You asked for recent experience. I can't comment on anything recent, but I have gotten many titles with a simple bill-of-sale. It helps if you can claim that the car has been in Michigan "all it's life". Obviously that's a tough one, but if you can reasonably state that it's been titled in MI at some point, perhaps more recent than not, I'd say that's probably fine, (and it's what I did). You fill out a form or two, come back later, after they perform a search for past titles, leins, etc., hand them $12, (maybe more now), and in a week or so, you have a title. No inspections, no odometer readings, no appraisals. I believe I had to sign a affidavit swearing that the VIN# is correct. Do NOT give them more info than they ask for. Keep it short and concise. "I have a bill-of-sale. I need a title"

In some cases they'll mention a surity bond. I'm told that's not a big deal, but I've never had to do it.

My Speedster was titled using a pencil written Bill-of-Sale dated 1938. "Sold to Charles V. and Kenneth E., for $5, one Ford car, engine number XXXXXX. Down payment $3.25." Then later, "Balance $1.75, Paid in Full". The lady at SOS never questioned or made the least comment about it. The title came in my dad's name, which he later transfered to me. The lady never asked about my dad's buddy, Kenneth E., who was dead by then anyway... The engine in the Speedster is the one that came from that car, a 1922 Centerdoor that had been in a fire. The upper half was burned up. Dad & his buddy hacked off the top, painted it with white house paint, and terrorized the neighborhood. (No driver's licenses either...)

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Charlie B in N.J.
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Re: Title Question

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:40 pm

There are some states, believe N.Y. Is one, where a car that old might not have a title to begin with. They used something which I believe was called a transferable registration or some other such DMV jargon. In other words no title ever existed. This may have actually run into the mid/late 60’s. In any case if you read the posts on here almost none of them come from your state so you or your pal need to visit your DMV office for some straight dope. Even a bill of sale must meet certain criteria.
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Re: Title Question

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:48 pm

First response is from a Michigander and the 2nd response posts several Michigan State websites including the one which very clearly defines what a "Bill of Sale" is.

I'd say Tim's getting some quality advice, and quickly, too.
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Charlie B in N.J.
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Re: Title Question

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:05 pm

Yeah. 1938. That’ll work. I stand by my recommendation. You wanna know? Ask Joe. Face to face and write your questions down.
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TMiller6
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Re: Title Question

Post by TMiller6 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:47 pm

As a Michiganian who has gone through this process I offer the following:

1) Read up on the Michigan SOS website. The magic value is $2500. Over that you will need a surety bond.
2) The state will not believe your car is worth less than $2500 and will ask for an appraisal. I finally looped my arm around the windshield post while holding a current Old Cars Weekly value guide and had my son snap my photo. This way I was able to prove this was my car and it belonged in a scrap yard.
3) Hagerty Insurance will help you with a surety bond and they are the greatest company to deal with. The bond itself was refreshingly cheap.
4) I am of the opinion that any seller who does not have a title for the vehicle should be offered 500-1000 dollars less for the vehicle. In spite of what they say, it is not a simple matter to get a title. If it is simple, ask them to get you the title and you can wait while they hold your deposit.
5) Michigan knows all about the title services; they are not stupid.
6) And finally, now that our governor has declared the SOS to be appointment only, be prepared to wait a long time to chat with them. I just received my July driver’s license renewal and drove 130 miles to get an appointment before August or September. I couldn’t renew by mail, they wanted a new photo.
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Re: Title Question

Post by John kuehn » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:16 pm

I agree with Tmiller6. The asking price has to come down.

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Charlie B in N.J.
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Re: Title Question

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:18 pm

Yep. Tom is right on. Why do the sellers job and prove he has the right to sell the car which might not actually be his? You lay out cash with no title and go through the work and expense of titling the car for him. Not you. Suppose it comes back hot/stolen? You then lose the car and perhaps your $. Bad deal all around. Too many T’s. out there to jump at the first one you see.
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Re: Title Question

Post by John Codman » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:53 am

I would find a friendly Michigan cop and ask him/her to check the engine numbers to see if the car was ever stolen. I would then go to the DMV and find out what you have to do to get the car titled. I would not claim that the car has been in Michigan "all it's life" unless you can prove it. If I worked in the DMV and you made that statement, my next question would be "How do you know?"
As was said earlier, some states - my home state of Massachusetts included, did not start issuing titles until sometime in the 1960s. I suspect that many Model Ts went their entire lives without ever being titled.

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Re: Title Question

Post by TRDxB2 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:23 pm

Charlie B in N.J. wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:18 pm
Yep. Tom is right on. Why do the sellers job and prove he has the right to sell the car which might not actually be his? You lay out cash with no title and go through the work and expense of titling the car for him. Not you. Suppose it comes back hot/stolen? You then lose the car and perhaps your $. Bad deal all around. Too many T’s. out there to jump at the first one you see.
Absolutely! Why do the sellers job and prove he has the right to sell the car which might not actually be his?
If the seller inherited this from the former owner there should be a record of that - and that would help him or you get it titled. If there is no proof of that then - measure the risk vs the reward.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger

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Charlie B in N.J.
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Re: Title Question

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:46 pm

Here's the skinny: I've posted here a number of times about how I won't buy an untitled car for the reasons stated above. So guess what? A very close relative has stuck his foot in this exact bucket of grot. Involves a Beetle with a large amount of work done to it. Sent me some pics also road tested it and my only question was "why is it so cheap"? (4500.00). No answer. We speak weekly and he hasn't mentioned the car since. Over 6 weeks. I'm pretty damn sure he handed over the dough and might now be into the Virginia title business. Supposedly N.Y. accepts them. n. j. doesn't. This seller has a number of Beetles on his property and claims to be a Beetle repair shop. The car was on his property with a for sale sign on it. You can bet that piece of dead cow in you left rear pocket the s.o.b. knew exactly what he was doing.
Forget everything you thought you knew.

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