Modern distributor or T timer
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Topic author - Posts: 10
- Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:35 am
- First Name: Al
- Last Name: Cereske
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Modern distributor or T timer
I’m new to T’s. Have seen pictures of modern distributors being used on model T engines instead of the original timers. What’s the purpose of purpose doing so and is the magneto sill available to use. I know these are really dumb questions but I will be taking delivery of a 26 coupe this summer that has the distributor set up. This is my 1st T.
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
Al welcome to the disease. There is no vaccine. Some folks think the distributor is an option they want, others are more of the “the way Henry built it” group I fall most of the time with the second group but for some safety reason I will use optional improvements( in my opinion) to use in my builds.
That said there is nothing better than to hear the rhythmic sound of the coils singing while on a drive in the country. Depending on what’s going on with your engine you may, if you’d like, be able to switch to the original coil system. Good luck and you’ll get tons of help from the folks here on the forum. Oh, you may want to ask what type oil others are using and how much Marvel Mystery Oil they use.
Glad I can help.
That said there is nothing better than to hear the rhythmic sound of the coils singing while on a drive in the country. Depending on what’s going on with your engine you may, if you’d like, be able to switch to the original coil system. Good luck and you’ll get tons of help from the folks here on the forum. Oh, you may want to ask what type oil others are using and how much Marvel Mystery Oil they use.
Glad I can help.
Last edited by JTT3 on Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
Al
For now leave it with the distributor. You have a LOT to learn about the safe and reliable operation of your new TOY!! Observe others and listen and learn. Then in a year or two you can decide. I’ve used both and each system has its advantages
Welcome aboard!
For now leave it with the distributor. You have a LOT to learn about the safe and reliable operation of your new TOY!! Observe others and listen and learn. Then in a year or two you can decide. I’ve used both and each system has its advantages
Welcome aboard!
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
Oh, you may want to ask what type oil others are using and how much Marvel Mystery Oil they use.
John....oh wow, just threw him to the wolves did you?!?
Just kidding of course! He's probably already gotten a bit of a taste of it before now, if he's done
any lurking on here!
There's a great little mom and pop restaurant in his city, called Tony's.
John....oh wow, just threw him to the wolves did you?!?
Just kidding of course! He's probably already gotten a bit of a taste of it before now, if he's done
any lurking on here!
There's a great little mom and pop restaurant in his city, called Tony's.
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
My observation has been that there's an assumption that the original timer & coil ignition is unreliable or poorly performing. What happens is someone gets a T, falls into the trap of thinking the ignition system is just a matter of making coils buzz, and then gets frustrated when it won't work properly. The apparent simplicity is a trap for the unwary, and the frustration leads to the installation of something more familiar; i.e. a distributor. The other reason for the installation of a distributor is because of a dead or removed magneto and the assumption the original Ford coils won't work properly without it - which is again a fallacy if the system is otherwise in good condition. The magneto is not suitable for directly driving a distributor type ignition. It can however be used to charge a battery which then powers the distributor.
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
There should be an electrical connection at the top of the transmission housing. That would be under the top section of the floorboard, right in the center of the highest point of the housing over the flywheel. You can connect a light bulb from that connection to ground. If that light lights up, your magneto is working. If you rev up the engine and the light burns out, it means the magneto is working very well. If so, you can easily switch to the timer and coils. You would need a coil box which on a 26 is mounted on the drivers side of the top of the engine. You would also need a good set of coils.
That would be the first test if you wish to go back to the original type ignition. If the magneto is not working, you might just as well leave the distributor. If at sometime in the future, you might need to pull the engine and transmission for some rebuilding. At that time you can work on the magneto and switch to the timer and coils.
Norm
That would be the first test if you wish to go back to the original type ignition. If the magneto is not working, you might just as well leave the distributor. If at sometime in the future, you might need to pull the engine and transmission for some rebuilding. At that time you can work on the magneto and switch to the timer and coils.
Norm
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
Yes, welcome to the affliction. I've been enjoying the Model T hobby for a little over 10 years now and learned of the various camps along the way. Here's what I have learned and observed.
The spectrum ranges from those who prefer the car as built by Henry with limited exceptions for safety (eg. safety glass vs plate glass) to speedsters and after market customizations that range from period correct accessories (Distributor) to modern technology (alternators, A/C, Electronic ignitions). To each his own. Most here draw the line at hot rod conversions (Modern engine, wheels, etc).
The original Model T engine and ignition system (Trembler/Buzz coils and low tension magneto) perform remarkably well when all components are in good condition, properly adjusted and properly maintained. Smooth, responsive, acceleration and sufficient power to easily achieve 45+ MPH. Unfortunately, the details associated with ignition setup, adjustment and maintenance are alien to most new to the early automotive technology. They get a car that runs well but are unprepared when normal wear slowly degrades engine performance (lacking power, poor acceleration, rough running, surging, etc.). The Timer (aka commutator) and trembler coil point contacts require periodic maintenance/cleaning and adjustment. Understandably, many opt to simply install a period correct distributor which they are more familiar rather than learn nuances of the Model T ignition system. The distributor solution only operates on battery and does not necessary perform better than a properly maintained original Model T ignition system. Especially if the distributor does not provide some means of automatic spark advance.
Learning to setup, maintain and adjust the original Model T ignition system is not overly difficult to learn but does require some special tools to adjust the coils for equal and consistent firing time. Some folks rather send their coils out periodically for professional adjustment and just maintain/clean their own timer/commutator. Another option is to replace the stock mechanical time with a maintenance free (solid-state) timer. Yet another option is to install a drop in electronic ignition that looks like an original timer but maintenance free, eliminates the need to ever adjust coil points and provides automatic timing advance like a distributor. PM me if you would like more information on these distributor alternatives that retain use of the original Trembler coils and original ignition appearance.
Overall, its a wonderful hobby with tremendous knowledge base here and opportunity to meet many wonderful like minded folks on a multitude of well organized Tours and parts swap meets.
The spectrum ranges from those who prefer the car as built by Henry with limited exceptions for safety (eg. safety glass vs plate glass) to speedsters and after market customizations that range from period correct accessories (Distributor) to modern technology (alternators, A/C, Electronic ignitions). To each his own. Most here draw the line at hot rod conversions (Modern engine, wheels, etc).
The original Model T engine and ignition system (Trembler/Buzz coils and low tension magneto) perform remarkably well when all components are in good condition, properly adjusted and properly maintained. Smooth, responsive, acceleration and sufficient power to easily achieve 45+ MPH. Unfortunately, the details associated with ignition setup, adjustment and maintenance are alien to most new to the early automotive technology. They get a car that runs well but are unprepared when normal wear slowly degrades engine performance (lacking power, poor acceleration, rough running, surging, etc.). The Timer (aka commutator) and trembler coil point contacts require periodic maintenance/cleaning and adjustment. Understandably, many opt to simply install a period correct distributor which they are more familiar rather than learn nuances of the Model T ignition system. The distributor solution only operates on battery and does not necessary perform better than a properly maintained original Model T ignition system. Especially if the distributor does not provide some means of automatic spark advance.
Learning to setup, maintain and adjust the original Model T ignition system is not overly difficult to learn but does require some special tools to adjust the coils for equal and consistent firing time. Some folks rather send their coils out periodically for professional adjustment and just maintain/clean their own timer/commutator. Another option is to replace the stock mechanical time with a maintenance free (solid-state) timer. Yet another option is to install a drop in electronic ignition that looks like an original timer but maintenance free, eliminates the need to ever adjust coil points and provides automatic timing advance like a distributor. PM me if you would like more information on these distributor alternatives that retain use of the original Trembler coils and original ignition appearance.
Overall, its a wonderful hobby with tremendous knowledge base here and opportunity to meet many wonderful like minded folks on a multitude of well organized Tours and parts swap meets.
I-Timer + ECCT Adjusted Coils = Best Model T Engine Performance Possible!
www.modeltitimer.com www.modeltecct.com
www.modeltitimer.com www.modeltecct.com
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
Here’s a link to instructions for testing your magneto.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 760271.pdf
I’m running with a disturbutator but slowly gathering parts to revert it to coils.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 760271.pdf
I’m running with a disturbutator but slowly gathering parts to revert it to coils.
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Topic author - Posts: 10
- Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:35 am
- First Name: Al
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
Thanks to all of you for the information. I really have a lot of homework to do. I am getting antsy for late July to roll around as the “T” will be coming out of storage in the Upper Peninsula of MI and brought to the central lower part of MI. I’m having difficulty finding a local MTFCA chapter, but plan to continue looking.
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
There's only one MTFCA chapter in Michigan, but it happens to also be one of a dozen MTFCI chapters. Maybe one of them isn't too far from Saginaw. https://www.modelt.org/chapter-listings.html
I agree with Les on the disturbutor. Go ahead and drive with it while you get used to the car. Then, by all means, go original. I'm in the "Ford ignition is the soul of the Model T" camp. I don't subscribe to the superstition that distributor ignition is "more reliable". I've had a Dodge and a Chebby dead by the side of the road because of ignition failure more than once, but never a Model T. I've had T's die on account of other things, but not that. I've been told by folks who have been on a lot of tours that the T's which have the most ignition failures are the ones that have been made "more reliable" with a disturbutor. Of course, that's just hearsay for me. I wasn't there.
I wish to associate myself with the remarks by the gentleman from Alpine. If your mag works, adding the coils and timer is easy. If it doesn't, you may want to wait and fix the mag when you have the engine out for something else.
I agree with Les on the disturbutor. Go ahead and drive with it while you get used to the car. Then, by all means, go original. I'm in the "Ford ignition is the soul of the Model T" camp. I don't subscribe to the superstition that distributor ignition is "more reliable". I've had a Dodge and a Chebby dead by the side of the road because of ignition failure more than once, but never a Model T. I've had T's die on account of other things, but not that. I've been told by folks who have been on a lot of tours that the T's which have the most ignition failures are the ones that have been made "more reliable" with a disturbutor. Of course, that's just hearsay for me. I wasn't there.
I wish to associate myself with the remarks by the gentleman from Alpine. If your mag works, adding the coils and timer is easy. If it doesn't, you may want to wait and fix the mag when you have the engine out for something else.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
It’s actually very simple. Especially if you’re doing your own work. If you don’t know the system you have you’re going to have a problem sooner or later. One isn’t better than the other nor does one offer more power over the other. In my book T’s with distributors are common enough to be “normal”. Run what ya brung.
Forget everything you thought you knew.
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
Welcome to the hobby, I am also a newby. Built my T from spare parts, chose to use a distributor, alternator, 12 volt, overdrive w/ hydraulic brakes. Everyone has an opinion, but the forum has excellent info. Just finishing up the build, waiting to go to the Michigan Jamboree in Bad Axe 8/25.
John Monticciolo
Oscoda, Michigan
John Monticciolo
Oscoda, Michigan
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
I have been around Model T’s for over 50 years since I inherited my Grandfathers 24 Coupe. I now have a total of three with the last two that I restored.
For me what makes a T are the singing spark coils and using the magneto when switching to mag.
Adding accessories to a T has been around since Model T’s came about but for me changing the ignition system is a no-no. Simply because that’s what what makes a Model T a Model T !
For me what makes a T are the singing spark coils and using the magneto when switching to mag.
Adding accessories to a T has been around since Model T’s came about but for me changing the ignition system is a no-no. Simply because that’s what what makes a Model T a Model T !
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
Al
Lots of T activity in Michigan. If you can make it, register or stop by the All Ford show in Standish Mich on July 10. You can google and preregister if you like. Great folks, lots of shared knowledge and a nice show location not far from Saginaw. Many of the local Ford clubs will be represented there.
There is a T Roundup in the Thumb in August. Lots of touring and visiting.
Another great show is the Old Car Festival at Greenfield Village weekend after Labor Day.
Plan a visit to Piquette Plant in Detroit if you want to see a great collection of T's and learn about the production methods.
I believe the Gilmore Museum has a class for learning to maintain and drive a T. Nice folks and a nominal price.
Welcome to the disease.
Jon Crane
Rochester Mich
Lots of T activity in Michigan. If you can make it, register or stop by the All Ford show in Standish Mich on July 10. You can google and preregister if you like. Great folks, lots of shared knowledge and a nice show location not far from Saginaw. Many of the local Ford clubs will be represented there.
There is a T Roundup in the Thumb in August. Lots of touring and visiting.
Another great show is the Old Car Festival at Greenfield Village weekend after Labor Day.
Plan a visit to Piquette Plant in Detroit if you want to see a great collection of T's and learn about the production methods.
I believe the Gilmore Museum has a class for learning to maintain and drive a T. Nice folks and a nominal price.
Welcome to the disease.
Jon Crane
Rochester Mich
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
I go along with those who feel that the magneto ignition system is a significant part of what makes a T a T. Having said that, if my magneto went south I would not pull a perfectly good engine to repair the magneto. I would install a modern ignition system to use until I had a good reason to have the engine out. As has been posted earlier, at that point I would go back to the magneto.
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
Well said - exactly the factors for keeping or changing. There are separate arguments for Magneto, Buzz coils etc. But just focusing onJohn Codman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:11 amI go along with those who feel that the magneto ignition system is a significant part of what makes a T a T. Having said that, if my magneto went south I would not pull a perfectly good engine to repair the magneto. I would install a modern ignition system to use until I had a good reason to have the engine out. As has been posted earlier, at that point I would go back to the magneto.
the so-called "Modern" aftermarket T distributors you should realize that they both function about the same as a timer, both require manual advance while driving. Basically they are simply distributor caps. The decision to switch to a distributor would be to have one that would eliminate the need for manually adjusting the spark timing.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
As a wise man has repeatedly said on these pages, "Ford did not build more than 15 million cars with a defective ignition system." - R.P.
If the car's magneto is up to snuff, why use anything else? You can't start a distributor car with a dead battery, but you can start and drive a magneto car with a dead battery - or even without a battery.
Good magneto, good timer, good coils.
If the car's magneto is up to snuff, why use anything else? You can't start a distributor car with a dead battery, but you can start and drive a magneto car with a dead battery - or even without a battery.
Good magneto, good timer, good coils.
"The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it." -George Orwell
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
So is he saying that the 355 million Ford vehicles made after that had/have defective ignition systems? No magnetos, timers or buzz coils since.As a wise man has repeatedly said on these pages, "Ford did not build more than 15 million cars with a defective ignition system."
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
No. He is not saying that. Different does not equate to defective. Frank, you could profit by a refresher course on logical fallacies.
"Get a horse !"
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
Well Frank if your talking T models, yes. Ha, next thing you know those crazy John Deere folks will want to switch from metal wheels to unproven pneumatic tires. That’s a joke, we’ll kind of.
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
So what I’m reading is that timer or distributor, neither is inherently defective, they are just different. Therefore, both systems are viable alternatives and picking one over the other is merely a matter of personal choice. Getting back to the original question, I believe that the common answer here is that if the current ignition system is working well, regardless of design, one should let it run as is. If that ignition system eventually becomes inoperable, then repairing or replacing that system with the same or an alternative goes back to that matter of personal choice. And as always, “better” is subjective, it depends on the criteria that is being considered and the person doing the considering.Rich Bingham wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:16 pmNo. He is not saying that. Different does not equate to defective. Frank, you could profit by a refresher course on logical fallacies.
Keep crankin’
Eric
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
One point that seems to have been missed ? is the distributor ignition system only make one spark per plug when it fires. where the buzzer coils can produce multiple sparks during the timer window for that spark plug which allows for the occasional free start when the residual gas mixture left in the cylinder is just right for combustion. a little like a BBQ grill with a newer electronic igniter. keeps sparking as long as You push the button. I don't know all the benefits of multiple sparks per plug. seems like it would have made use of the rot gut gas of the day preform better and given more complete combustion. helping make the use of kerosene and other alternate fuels doable as well.
My 2 Cents worth maybe less
My 2 Cents worth maybe less
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
No joke - because it will not be long for them switching to autonomous tracked electric tractors (experimental prototype below). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzRSzu15CLk
A natural for Farmers with leased land for windmills or his own over the cost of fuel. Concept would allow a swarm (multiple tractors fielded at a time). Combines next..... JD has had technology to map & measure soil conditions, seed spacing, yield etc, the fields are already mapped. The antenna devices on top of the prototype are the same devices that have been used in Precision Farming. https://www.deere.com/en/technology-pro ... lsrc=aw.ds
More tech - "See & Spray" targeting and spraying only weeds on fallow ground. https://www.deere.com/en/our-company/ne ... ay-select/
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
I'm impressed with the electronic autonomous JD tractor above; now if the Deere engineers could just come up with a gas gauge that works for my E-140, I'd be really impressed!
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
Maybe they put work on it aside , because you may not need it in your next purchase.John Codman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:00 pmI'm impressed with the electronic autonomous JD tractor above; now if the Deere engineers could just come up with a gas gauge that works for my E-140, I'd be really impressed!
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
The last JD lawn tractor that we owned lasted 18 years and all it needed when I gave it away was a starter. I had been looking at new JD lawn tractors anyhoo. If this one lasts as long, I will be watching the hired help cut the grass, or I will be looking at the grass from the wrong side. The 2003 L-120 had a far better gas gauge, but just about everything else on the new E-140 is as good or better.TRDxB2 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:08 pmMaybe they put work on it aside , because you may not need it in your next purchase.John Codman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:00 pmI'm impressed with the electronic autonomous JD tractor above; now if the Deere engineers could just come up with a gas gauge that works for my E-140, I'd be really impressed!
I sure hope that they put work on the gas gauge aside, because if the present gauge system represents JD's best efforts, they need some new engineers.
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Re: Modern distributor or T timer
JD is a very progressive Company, that is why they have become The Major Brand. I suspect that electric lawn & garden tractors are in development since that is the direction the market is headed and a much more convenient set-up for home owners. If all you need is something to cut-the grass. Take a look below. Don't know much about it and doesn't appear to be available in the USA, but popular in Europe. I would suspect that that the issues raised in this article are being addressed given the number of electric powered mowers hitting the market (this was introduced in 2012 or so I think). I have no insider info on product development anymore - was in the Parts Division, then Corporate IT and just about everyone I ever knew retired several years ago. https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/ ... -series-iiJohn Codman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:51 pmThe last JD lawn tractor that we owned lasted 18 years and all it needed when I gave it away was a starter. I had been looking at new JD lawn tractors anyhoo. If this one lasts as long, I will be watching the hired help cut the grass, or I will be looking at the grass from the wrong side. The 2003 L-120 had a far better gas gauge, but just about everything else on the new E-140 is as good or better.TRDxB2 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:08 pmMaybe they put work on it aside , because you may not need it in your next purchase.John Codman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:00 pmI'm impressed with the electronic autonomous JD tractor above; now if the Deere engineers could just come up with a gas gauge that works for my E-140, I'd be really impressed!
I sure hope that they put work on the gas gauge aside, because if the present gauge system represents JD's best efforts, they need some new engineers.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger