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Hot rear drum....

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:29 pm
by NU2theT
Things have been working good with adjustments to the new bands and proper link angle, very little oil weeping around the hogs head and pedal shafts with the new gaskets.

So after another good long ride breaking in the new bands I went around and tightened the split rims to the wheels and noticed the right rear drum was a lot hotter than the left drum that was just warm to the touch. I assume is more normal after a good long drive.

The pictured inside drum and wear on the lower part of the outer seal between 6 & 9 O'clock is what i found. Seems the outer seal is rubbing on the inside of the hub and thinking I need to use axle shims to bring the drums outward, hoping the hub taper is not excessively worn. Any input would be great.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:44 pm
by Jerry VanOoteghem
I believe your axle seal was not installed completely. I think it should have been pressed on the axle housing further. But now, it must be removed and straightened or replaced.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:48 pm
by Scott_Conger
Either the seal and cover are too far out, or the drum goes too far on...or both

Neither can be truly accurately determined until you show us a picture of the wheel mounted back on the axle and show the relative position of the brake drum to the backing plate. A simple, close picture taken from the rear will do. From that, a definitive answer can be given, as there is a correct/designed relationship between the two.

telling us if there is an inner neoprene seal inside the axle, behind the sleeve would be important to know, too.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:52 pm
by DanTreace
You may have issue with worn hub or axle.

But first try to see if the seal cup can be tapped farther on the axle housing flange, to get more clearance. If the felt washer was placed dry, that can keep the seal cup from fully seating. The felts need to be rubbed with grease to thin them down and to provide better seal from seeping oil.
2019-09-20 15.57.25.jpg

Plus on the drum hub, you can install the hub felt that is designed to fit into the hub groove. That felt is also crimped down with grease and that felt helps prevent metal contact as it lubes the seal cap cover and also prevents seepage to the brake shoes.

Hub felt.jpg
hub flet instally.jpg

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:56 pm
by Kerry
Go with your thinking, a shim will move the hub from the seal cap.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:25 pm
by RajoRacer
I'm thinking (dangerous !) that it appears the dust cap isn't seated against the housing.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:32 pm
by TXGOAT2
Both hubs should be close to the same temperature and neither should be hot unless you've just used the brakes hard stopping repeatedly or from high speed. The axle assembly will run above ambient temperature at sustained higher speeds, but it ought not get hot to the touch under ordinary circumstances. Significantly higher heat at either brake assembly indicates an issue there, with brake adjustment being the most likely of several possibilities.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:39 pm
by Allan
I'm with Pat. That small area of contact with the seal cap is not likely to have contributed much to the heat of the brake drum. I'd be looking at brake adjustment for a slightly dragging shoe.
The seal cap does appear to e well short of completely seated on the axle housing, and tapping it further on would alleviate the contact at that point.

Allan from down under.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:39 am
by Robert Kiefaber
I agree with Allan.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:00 am
by NU2theT
Thanks for the input fellas, will snap a shot of the wheel back on and look into that axle cap set. That Ruckstell was rebuilt and the modern neoprene inner oil seals were installed.

While things are off I might go with the neoprene outer grease seal cap set, any one currently using these?

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:46 am
by Scott_Conger
With an inner neoprene seal, the sleeve will not slide in as far as it should and will stick out...if it sticks out, then the outer felt and felt cap cannot seat properly and will be overly long (as your picture seems to show). The remedy is to very slightly shorten the sleeve.

The outer neoprene seal will aggravate your existing problem in spades. It is a machined aluminum cover and is much thicker than your present cover which is stamped steel. Additionally, where your felt and stamped steel cover is designed to allow for the inherent flexing of the axle shaft, the neoprene outer seal will not, and will simply tear up the seal as the axle flexes and moves around as they all do.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:20 am
by JTT3
Pat & Allen are correct. Soak the the felt seal with grease. I actually warm the grease to a more liquid state and really drown the felt in it. Use your hands to help it penetrates the felt. When this is done it will actually be able to be reduced in thickness. That said, I believe your new brake lining is causing the heat. The brake ring may actually be sprung and not seating tighter into the clips causing steady friction thus heat. Though it may be an optical illusion, look at the upper brake boss where it meets the cam, the top boss is sprung out & not seating as low as the bottom boss. I’d also straighten the cap and seat it with a large socket for better conformity.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:04 am
by RajoRacer
Note: the "Improved" Ford rear axle housings were manufactured to accept the "new" inner leather seal & spring washer so the sleeve should not protrude out of the end of the housing - could be a simple brake rod adjustment also BUT there is definitely "contact" between the hub and dust cap.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:21 pm
by Old school
I had very similar scrap marks on the dust cover and drum. A member here advised a 3# hammer, that along with a block of wood set them properly. I have to agree its doubtful just that caused the heat but you never know. Hard to see in the images but linings look ok. Set the dust covers and take it for a ride.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:05 pm
by NU2theT
Some pictures of the Right rear back on and the left rear. Great thoughts on this subject, was suggested by Steve @ Langs to shade the inside of the drum with a sharpie and see were contact shows up. As mentioned probably the outer brake lining edges rubbing and heating things up.

I did check the clevis rods and both adjusted to operate the brake cam equally. I referenced brake drum service, adjustment by Restoring a Ruckstell by Milt Webb main text pages 46 &47.

Thanks again for the help on this matter, it means a lot. Will order a new felt/cap set and start from scratch.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:29 pm
by JTT3
Nice fit on the rear drums but there seems to be a real problem. No grease or oil anywhere. You might want to check your rear axle pumpkin.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:19 pm
by Scott_Conger
The improved Ford guys will know, but if that was pre-26, the drums would be too far on the axle. When new, the drums only came up to, not over the backing plate. Perhaps that changed in '26...

Good of you to make the effort of the photo as now you'll get accurate advice for the issue you're dealing with. Myself, I still believe it is a combination of worn hub sliding too far onto the axle, and the neoprene inner boot holding your roller sleeve from seating fully...I bet if you take the cover, washer, and felt off, you'll see the split sleeve sticking out about an eighth of an inch. If so, this will keep the cover from going on fully. It is almost always a combination of those two issues.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:53 am
by NU2theT
Thanks Scott, something I will look @ when I pull the wheels again and replace the axle housing cap set.

I will also try adding a rear axle shim then road test, for .98 ea it's worth a try and probably the culprit as that hub is just in enough to rub the side of the brake shoe.

Will order new rear wheel hubs this fall when I have the wheels built with new spokes, hopefully the current condition can be fixed with these simple parts and will keep things running this summer.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:59 am
by It's Bill
Scott, if you install new hubs, see the thread on "how do I use this tool". Scott C points out a real buster on steel hubs. Good luck, and cheers! Bill

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:45 am
by speedytinc
Drums do over hang the backing plates a bit. Sometimes switching wheels from one side to the other will get you the best match of axle & hub wear for the best clearances.
Looks like new E-brake lining. Maybe a little grinding on the outer sharp edge to match the drum radius will be enough to make the clearance you need if its not rubbing the metal part of the shoe.
As S.C. said, make sure bearing sleeve is flush or less to the housing end.
The outer felt seal cups need a lot of push to set home. I use an old transmission brake drum shaft & a 3# hammer. Dont be shy with that hammer.

I dont like shims as a permanent fix. Everyone I have taken apart has migrated in to cut the seal & cause a leak.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:12 am
by JTT3
The drums may be slightly deep but I’m not sure, 26/7 backing plates had a punch out on them so any material or liquid would drain out. I don’t think that would have been done if the drums were not suppose to be flush but I may be wrong. My 27 roadster, 26 Tudor , 26 Fordoor all had similar looking drum positions as you pictured. What I do know that when I replaced the brake linings on one of the cars I had to sand the linings a bit to give the drum some relief after making sure the brake was not sprung and tight into the clips on the backing plate. Simple way to check that is once the wheel is back on, jack that side up, with the brake lever disengaged turn the wheel an feel for drag. Lang’s gave you some great advice using the marker. I used Prussian Blue.
Hope you get this resolved so you can hit the road.
Best John

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:57 pm
by Scott_Conger
It's been pointed out to me that the improved Ford originally came with an inner seal and thus, a neoprene seal should have enough room to fit without making the bearing sleeve stick out. My apologies for giving incorrect and misleading advice. I do very little work on later cars but still should have remembered this, so am setting the record straight with regards to some of my advice.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:13 pm
by Mark Nunn
When I relined the shoes on my '26 I spent some time ensuring that the lined shoes were round and matched the drums. I placed the loose shoes in the drums, checked for high and low spots and corrected those until I was satisfied with the fit. Typically, the low spot in the shoe will be the side that is opposite the brake cam. That area receives the most bending stress.

Once satisfied, I used a bar of soapstone to rub onto the drum. Spinning drums (I have wire wheels) on the installed shoes showed where the linings needed to be sanded. The soapstone transferred onto the shoe lining.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:56 pm
by speedytinc
Scott_Conger wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:57 pm
It's been pointed out to me that the improved Ford originally came with an inner seal and thus, a neoprene seal should have enough room to fit without making the bearing sleeve stick out. My apologies for giving incorrect and misleading advice. I do very little work on later cars but still should have remembered this, so am setting the record straight with regards to some of my advice.
Not everyone knows or might equate that there is no modification needed to use the new style inner seals on improved T rear ends. (Does this apply to all large drum rear ends, even the earliest versions?) Such as early wide drum brake drums without the replacable clutch shoes? Not everyone reading this discussion has a later axle & may have just been made aware of the potential problem when installing inner seals.
In this situation, it dosent hurt to look anyway.
Do we all trust that repo inner sleeves are of the correct length? I have seen them in different thicknesses.
For the previous reasons, I would not consider your advise incorrect or misleading. I learn something new here every day.

Re: Hot rear drum....

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:40 pm
by speedytinc
This weekend I needed to select 2 outer sleeves for a rux kit build. Of the assorted new sleeves I have, I found quite a bit of variation. One set was .o62" shorter than the others. The thickness varied from .060" to .070"
I ended with the .070 thick to use with .004-.006 under roller roller bearings (I have conidered .005 under "too worn" to reuse. thats .010" extra fit slop.) with neoprene inner seals on a small drum rear end. The sleeves ended up flush. I expected to need to trim them to clear the seal thickness. The bearing fit was excellent. Axles were std. @ 1.062"

The thick sleeves, standard length came from Bob's. Great for worn, used bearings. The shorter &.060 thick, Were Chaffins "heat treated" I normally use these with 0-.001" wear bearings. Original hyatt sleeves measured .065" along with some unknown brand sleeves.

Observation: The neoprene inner seals have changed or there are different manufactures.
First generation had a 3/8" band before necking up , with a bead molded in about the center of the cone. Every one I saw after use was delaminated from the washer or shredded from too much grab. So I cut it off in the center of the bead.
The newest version has a band before the tapering cone @ 1/8" Much better! I still cut @ the center of the bead. There is still plenty of seal tension, but not excessive as un modified. Also the thickness of the material laminated to the washer is reduced to a total of.062" from about 1/8."