MTFCA Forum

I offered to drive down from Rochester New York to the little village of Scio New York to help their fire company get their model TT running. It’s a great original pumper but the person who used to take care of it died years ago and the responsibility fell to some without enough experience to keep it up. This engine hadn’t run forma few years.

I took with me a small “testing” gas tank, a timer, rebuilt and tested coils and original Champion X plugs and a known good Kingston carburetor. The first thing I did was clean all the spark plug terminals on both ends with fine sand paper. Then I had someone put their thumb on the spark plug openings to check for compression and all cylinders seemed good, no stuck valves. I replaced the dirty modern type plugs with my Champion X plugs. I disconnected the gas tank and installed my small tank filled with fresh gas. I removed the roller type timer and cleaned it out with rages and ether soaked paper towel. Also cleaned the roller. The timer was a little worn but I figured it would run. The timer I brought with me was a New Day and I decided I didn’t want to have to re calibrate the timing on this try.

I wired a 6 volt flash light battery to the battery terminal of the coil box and grounded the other end to the frame near the engine compartment. I opened the needle valve on the carburetor around 1 1/2 open from cranked it about five times with the ignition off. Then I turned on the ignition to battery and gave it a few cranks and eventually got one or two cylinders to fire. Eventually got it all to fire and run on magneto. And …. started it on magneto. Great !

Now …. Went to lunch and came back to do some more tweaking and we could not get it to start again except for a few revolutions. I switched out the carburetor … no change. Tried their old plugs … no change. Put my plugs back in and looked at the wires a did notice that the brass ends of the spark plug wires were not soldered and loose. Tried to clean the inside of the brass terminals and crimped them with vice grips. No start. Very interesting … not used to things not working. On the way home I did realize that I did clean out the timer but forgot to add any lubrication. Not sure if that would prevent starting and running. Also thought about all the old crappy wires … maybe the cumulated effect of all the bad wiring could have been the problem after shaking it from running.

Anyway, I made a list of things they needed to replace including the wiring harness, spark plug wires, spark plugs, rebuilt coils and timer. Also to have their original has tank clean and sealed and once those are installed I’ll go back. But what does this group think might be the possible problems. I did post a video on the model T Facebook site.

Start with the basics like it never had started....
Check spark, timing, fuel and compression.
One of them has to be the culprit.
Could be the valves are hanging up.
A little MMO might help.

80% of starting and running problems are usually electrical in nature. Go through everything again, sounds like it needs new spark plug wires or just solder the old one's together. Go through that timer again. I wouldn't think lack of lube would make a difference at this point. Maybe try that New Day, but I hope it's better than the "new New Day" that I had on my Fordor that I subsequently replaced with a great working TW timer. Check the timing too. There was a recent post on here about setting it up, it's not that hard using the "3:30" crank pin position with #1 cylinder rising up on compression. Check the mag post for any crud on it. Go from there.

Try using a motorcycle or lawn and garden type 12 volt battery. Beyond that, I'd suspect the timer or carburetor. Plenty of gas? The ignition switch contacts may be corroded, and giving it some light exersize might wake it up. I doubt the valves would be stiking after it has been started and run. Some MMO won't hurt it, and spraying the inside of the timer with WD 40 might help clean and loosen it up. A long shot is that running it for a short time may have loosened old, thick carbon deposits and allowed some of it to stick under valves, which would make starting it difficult.

My sense is that changing all the wiring, a new timer and cleaning the contacts in the coil box switch will make the difference.

A stronger battery should do it. A friend one time used a flashlight battery as a hotshot and it only worked a couple times.

You probably checked already but were the coils buzzing when you tried to start it? Ignition switch to loose feeling? Work the switch back and fourth several times. Those switches can fool you. When you get it started again slightly wiggle the switch and see what happens. Good luck.

Yes, the coils (which are in excellent shape) were all buzzing when I cranked it over. I only thought about the switch after I got home and running the different scenarios in my head.

I agree with the recommendation to install a stronger (higher capacity) battery. That little lantern battery would be severely taxed supplying enough current to fire all four coils.

Last year another member called me about problems starting his TT. He was also using a lantern battery. Switching to a higher capacity battery made all the difference for him.

Of course, if it will start on magneto, than the battery discussion is moot.

Right … I started it twice by hand cranking with the switch on magneto. As far as dry cells .. used one in my 1919 for years. Methinks it is something related to old wiring that got shaken with my first successes in getting it started. Something really simple.

I don't recall reading anything about coolant. I would imagine that was checked out and found to not have been drained in the past?

Maybe also check the oil for signs of coolant contamination from a bad head gasket?

Yes, the radiator was full of antifreeze and there was oil in the crankcase. These were the first things checked out. Then we established compression. The gas tank only had around 1” of gas and that’s why I bypassed it using a small gas tank I brought with me. We actually got it running without doing anything to the carburetor aside from draining the bowl. Later when I couldn’t start it I switched out the carburetor with one I brought thinking that some sludge may have redistributed in there.

Mark, I had a similar experience a few years back. Drove to a store and all was well. Came out and the car would not start. Turned out the key switch was intermittent on
The battery position. No contact when turned all the way to the left. Have to turn all the way left but then turn back right just a little or the contact over shoots the battery position contact. That would also explain why you were able to start on Mag.

Steve Jelf had a similar issue where he showed how to sand down the insulator surface to expose the fixed contacts and prevent overshooting them. Good luck with finding the root cause.

Well, actually there was audible sound from the coils and when we removed the plugs and laid them on the cylinder head they also showed a connection. When I said it started on mag that was during the first session where it both started on battery and mag. I had the engine running and smoothly. After letting it sit for about 1 1/2 hours I could only get a few hits on battery but not enough to keep the engine going.

The small gas tank was empty.

Been there done that!