how stiff is too stiff?

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JamesD
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how stiff is too stiff?

Post by JamesD » Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:25 pm

I took the T for the longest ride I've done to date: about 5 miles round trip. By the end it feels like it has less power than at the start, and when I crank it it is quite tight as the pistons come up. It almost groans through that part of the rotation. It starts and runs, but my question is: am I being paranoid with a new engine, or should I pull the head and make sure the clearances are not too tight. I've seen a few threads on the forum about cylinders being bored too tight and the pistons getting scored. When I had the engine bored it was done by a professional engine rebuilder, but not a guy familiar with Model T's. The engine work would have been done about 20 years ago but I only really got the car on the road now so I'm not going to get any warranty! It had new aluminum pistons.


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:59 pm

If it were mine, I would not pull the head, but I also would not drive it 5 miles being that tight. I would run it in the driveway for maybe 15 minutes or so and let it cool down. Maybe do this a few times a day until she loosens up a bit.


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Dan Hatch » Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:08 pm

Did you hone the piston pins before you installed the rods on the pistons.
New Aluminum pistons pins are too tight out of the box. Dan


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:35 pm

What kind of oil are you using? Are you certain it is full of oil? Are you certain the cooling system is working properly? What about ignition timing? Late timing will cause pistons and valves to run hotter than normal. As mentioned, starting it cold and running for 10-20 minutes, then letting it cool down for an hour or so several times may be helpful. Double check everything, including the emergency brake adjustments and transmission band adjustments and anything else that could cause the engine to work harder than normal.


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by JohnM » Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:02 pm

If five miles is your longest trip, unless you believe the builder was unqualified, I would assume the engine just needs to be run in. Do as others suggested. It will groan when cranking until the rings set in the honed cylinders.


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Norman Kling » Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:59 pm

It could be that the new aluminum pistons are tight. Aluminum expands at a greater rate than steel and when the engine gets hot, they can get tight in the cylinders. Since the engine did not seize and you can still turn the crank when hot. It will probably run in with some time driving at slow speeds about 20 mph in high and occasionally speeding up to about 30 and then back to 20 for a while and trying not to overheat the engine. After you get about 1,000 miles on it, you can drive faster unless it overheats. If it runs too hot, you need to fix the cooling system.
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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by JamesD » Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:52 pm

I've run it numerous times in the driveway as suggested. It doesn't overheat, at least it doesn't boil over. The radiator seems to function well, I can feel that it's hot at the top and cool at the bottom when I have it running. I'm using 10W30 oil and yes, it has enough oil. I check it before every drive. I'm still learning where it's happy as far as timing goes. I have an oil screen, and it doesn't have much collecting in it. I can't say whether the piston bushings were honed, that would have been done by the engine shop, but there's no trouble going over TDC (where there's the most angular motion of the rod) but rather the piston going up or down, if that makes sense. I've got the bands as loose as possible without causing slippage. It will take a long time to get 1000 miles on it in <5mile increments! :D


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:03 pm

Probably tight pistons. I'd make a lot of short trips with lots of stop and go, no hill climbing, no extended hard pulls. Easing up to 20 mph or so and coasting down to 6-8 mph with the throttle off and car in gear can help cool and lubricate pistons. A pint of Marvel Oil in a full tank of gas won't hurt, either. As you get a few hundred miles on it, short periods of full throttle accelleration can be helpful to seat rings. It would be nice to know what the ring gaps are. Is it possible to put the head gasket on backwards on a T? That can cause uneven heating or overheating in some engines.


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Allan » Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:51 am

Professional engine builders have their own "rules of thumb" but if they are not familiar with Model T's, piston fit is likely to be on the tight side. Deep skirted alloy T pistons need more clearance than modern equivalents of the same size.

On my first ever total recondition, the alloy piston available at the time had solid skirts. Even with extra clearance, because the skirts were not split, It seized up, even though I had put almost a 1000km on it. On a long steady pull on the way interstate to Canberra on a National tour, it started to rattle as though it had run a rod bearing. I switched her off and coasted to a halt on the side of the road. By the time I'd gathered my thoughts, lifted the hood, checked the toolbox for the extra con rod I had poured when the motor was being done, it had cooled enough to start her up and run into a side road for the replacement rod to be fitted. The noise had gone! Self healing rod bearings!!!??

It happened again 2 days later, pushing the 3:1 rear axle into a head wind on a really hot day. The Auto club mechanic riding with me, diagnosed the rattle as a rod bearing failure. We pulled over, and discovered a half flat rear tyre. By the time we had that fixed, he asked if I wanted the back-up trailer to get us into town. He also was amazed that the noise had gone when I started her up again.

By the time we got to Canberra, I could tell when it was about to happen, so we'd stop for a while and then get back on the road a little later. The manufacturers air freighted me a new set of split skirt pistons overnight. After a light hone to clean up the bores, she went back together again and has done thousands of miles in 6 or 8 long distance interstate runs since.

Allan from down under.


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:20 am

You don't want to run an overly rich mixture and/or late spark timing with a new, tight engine.


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by speedytinc » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:22 am

Could be too tight piston or wrist pin fit. I would treat her like a new motor break in. Add 1 quart of 2 cycle oil or atf or motor oil. Lift the rear end, run in high,(Easier on the transmission bushings) put a box fan in front of the radiator. A thinner oil would not hurt. Run for 1/2 hour, 1 hour, 2 hours varying engine speed. Let cool down between running. Watch closely for seizing symptoms. Shut her down if she tightens. Take it out on the road, vary the speed. A montana racer friend goes full throttle, full off keeping the speed around 35 for ring seating. Make sure you are not running retarded. Set fuel mixture rich.


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:02 am

One thing not covered above, and could cause it to feel "tight" when cranking. That would be the compression ratio and stroke. If the engine had been modified with a longer stroke crank shaft and or high compression head or domed pistons, you would have higher compression, causing it to feel tighter on cranking. This would be more noticeable after being run because the oil would be around the rings and in cylinders raising the compression. So take a compression reading and see if it is higher than about 55 pounds pressure. If so, you don't have a problem. Another way if you could test, would be to remove the spark plugs and try cranking it. If it is much easier, you you probably have a higher compression engine, which would not be a problem either.
Norm


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:23 am

Be sure there is a little oil on the hand crank where it goes through the bushing ahead of the crankshaft ratchet. I would not run a rich mixture unless I had a good amount of oil in the gasoline.

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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by JamesD » Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:09 pm

I checked the compression today (cold). it was 50 psi on all 4 cylinders. The plugs looked like they were running rich, but I've got the mixture screw where it runs OK. If I turn it in any further it will stumble and stall. Think I'll add some oil to the gas for now and see how that works. I'll take it for short jaunts for a while and see if it loosens up. I checked the oil screen today and it was clean, changed the oil, looked at the drums/bands. Some day I'll get a new set of band springs and take the washers out. And no, they aren't bottoming out on the springs, just needed a little more compression on them.
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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:27 pm

sad to say, but there is so much wrong going on in your pictures, that it will take a list:

Washers are increasing tension on springs but at the same time are limiting travel due to potential bottoming/binding of the coils. Compression springs are designed with a certain number of coils, wire diameter, and spring rate to operate in a designed range but not be over-compressed. Simply pre-compressing them is not the answer to making them stronger. Washers need to come out and correct springs installed.

The roll pin will shear far sooner than later...at best you will lose low gear, at worst some of it will fall into the bowels of the transmission to play havoc with things

Linings on bands are not new though the engine is

Wrong washers are on the ends of the reverse and brake cross shafts and will allow nuts to fall off. At best, pedal adjustment will become looser and looser requiring constant attention, or worst, on a longer drive, will vibrate off with serious consequences.

Pressure plate wiring is not particularly robust, but this sort of thing is starting to get down in the weeds and pale in comparison to the above items

I think you have your work cut out for you getting this car sorted out. You will be well served by finding someone knowledgeable nearby and get them to adopt you and your car and help you work through things.

With this knowledge in hand, I will tell you that your car becoming stiffer as it gets hot is not at all normal. I think everyone is putting on their best face and encouraging you, but the evidence the transmission is presenting leads me to believe that some common things that can be considered acceptable for a modern engine have been put to work in a splash system engine and the end result is a bit of a crap-shoot. As others have mentioned, you very likely have wrist pins which are too tight or pistons that are fitted too closely. Pay very close attention to noises or power-loss and consider a flatbed rather than gut your way home if something really doesn't goe right. These things do not get better.

good luck
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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:29 pm

dang
why am I suddenly getting double posts?
disregard
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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by speedytinc » Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:55 pm

If this motor came from a rebuilder like this, Tear it down completely. What other stuff was done wrong or not at all. If you dont have a really good T engine guy, find one. I would look for a T builder with a good reputation for building speedster & overhead conversions. Not that you necessarily want to go fast, but a guy building go fast motors knows the "tricks" for a reliable motor.
No A builders. The differences & nuances are too different between A & T's Scott pointed out several disasters in the making from 1 pix!
Maybe you can still salvage those pistons?
You can try break in procedures. At this point, if she still starts to bind up again, throw in the towel.

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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by JamesD » Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:09 pm

Scott, I take your point on the springs, as I said I will change them out but they are not bottoming out right now. The washers are reproduction washers with the bit that keeps the nut from turning off. The bands are new Kevlar with less that 50 miles on them. I put this motor together a long time ago before I had access to the internet and all the advice I am getting from this forum. If I had to do it over I would change some things and it looks like I have some work to do now. I'll get some new springs and a proper pin for the low pedal on order and double check the washer/nut assembly. I agree that the fact that the motor feels tighter just doesn't seem right to me either. I've put lots of later engines together and I've never had one get tight when it warms up.


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:57 pm

It might be a good idea to pull the head and remove one piston assembly to check the condition of the piston, bore, clearances, including ring end gap, and so forth. That would also allow a look at the rod big and small ends. 50 psi down the line looks good, as far as that goes.

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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by JamesD » Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:09 pm

I suppose I have to remove the hogshead to replace that roll pin?


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by speedytinc » Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:30 pm

Yes. Well worth it. Those C pins can fail & find a vital spot on your field coil.


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by speedytinc » Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:35 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:57 pm
It might be a good idea to pull the head and remove one piston assembly to check the condition of the piston, bore, clearances, including ring end gap, and so forth. That would also allow a look at the rod big and small ends. 50 psi down the line looks good, as far as that goes.
This is a good idea. Also check or have the rods checked for out of true. You can look in all cylinders for signs of galling. & sticky wrist pins.


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Kerry » Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:31 pm

Some have suggested to check wrist pins, I see you say a re-build some 20 years ago. A big problem with pistons back then was there was no oil holes drilled to lube the wrist pin by some piston manufactures and a big problem as you are having now back then.

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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by JamesD » Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:47 pm

Kerry wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:31 pm
Some have suggested to check wrist pins, I see you say a re-build some 20 years ago. A big problem with pistons back then was there was no oil holes drilled to lube the wrist pin by some piston manufactures and a big problem as you are having now back then.
do you have a picture of what it should look like? I'm getting closer to the point where I'm going to pull a piston to see what's going on and I'd like to know what I'm looking for. Is it just a hole drilled from the bottom into the pin boss of the piston?


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Kerry » Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:02 pm

Yes James, that's what you would be looking for, about an 1/8" hole 1/2 way on the boss.


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:37 am

James

I saw in another thread where you quickly rectified some things found in the transmission. Good for you. You also mentioned pulling the head to check piston clearance...now that, I do not get (?)

If it were my engine, I'd be pulling the bottom inspection cover and pulling rod caps and seeing that the rods swing freely from the wrist pins and that the rods can slap back/forth freely on the piston pin. Any stiffness here will tighten up when hot. You will also be able to inspect for the oil hole in the piston boss like Kerry said. Now, findings from here may lead to removal of the head, but at least you'll have a real reason to pull it.

I think you're going to dive into the engine from the wrong end. Sort of like going to an ENT if you suspect you have hemorrhoids :)
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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by JamesD » Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:36 am

Hi Scott, My intention was to pull one piston out and check the piston clearance or if there is evidence of scuffing on the piston. At the same time look at the pins and check if there is an oil hole. I guess I can start at the bottom first before I pull the head, since I have to do that first anyway if I want to pull a piston. Just from the way it feels I think it is more likely to be pistons than pins but I'll have to check it all anyway. Is there a spec on the pin to bushing clearance? The old MTFCA engine book I have talks about the pin being just tight enough that the rod fall under it's own weight but I assume that's for a cast iron piston and an aluminum one would be slightly looser.


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by speedytinc » Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:12 pm

JamesD wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:36 am
Hi Scott, My intention was to pull one piston out and check the piston clearance or if there is evidence of scuffing on the piston. At the same time look at the pins and check if there is an oil hole. I guess I can start at the bottom first before I pull the head, since I have to do that first anyway if I want to pull a piston. Just from the way it feels I think it is more likely to be pistons than pins but I'll have to check it all anyway. Is there a spec on the pin to bushing clearance? The old MTFCA engine book I have talks about the pin being just tight enough that the rod fall under it's own weight but I assume that's for a cast iron piston and an aluminum one would be slightly looser.
Maybe I am misreading your intensions. If you pull 1 piston & its ok. Dont assume They are all ok. Check em all.

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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by JamesD » Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:45 pm

Yes, if I'm going that far I will pull them all to check them.

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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by JamesD » Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:57 pm

Well there's good news and bad news. :( :cry:

First the bad news: no holes in the pistons for the pin lubrication, #4 pin feels a tiny bit stiff, the rod bearing on #4 looks like it's damaged. Of course it has to be #4 on a 3 dip pan!

The good news: The crank looks fine, no scratches that I can feel, the cylinder bores look fine - no scoring. The other rods look fine

Looks like I'll have to find a T expert to redo the rod and check the other rods for straightness and hone the pin bushings. I'll mike the crank, the pistons and the bores to see what they are and check the clearance while I'm at it.

Anyone know of a good T engine guy in Manitoba, or Western Canada?
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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:22 pm

well, that's too bad...but better to find this out in the garage than on the road

as an FYI, when things are buttoned back up, consider this: study the cotter pin on the rod in the photo...then mentally reinstall it in the opposite direction, bending the right hand leg to the right and clinched around the rod...now it's functional. As it is, it isn't doing anything that would be considered helpful.

Best of luck. You're going to likely find that the crank is fine, though refitting #4 is going to be a $%^&. Not that awful to remove, but a doozy to lap and fit. Be patient and build a rag-dam in the back of the crankcase while you work. Some even go as far as to fabricate a sheet-metal tray that bolts in to occlude the chasm below the 4th rod. One day I'm going to make one myself.

Time-wise, if you're adept enough in the garage and are practiced at it, pulling the engine and removing the pan might (might) be as slow/quick as doing it in place and may require less Hail Mary's and repentance at the very least.
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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Kerry » Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:05 am

Some finer points are required on splash bearings for proper lubrication.
That #4 can be recovered to a good serviceable bearing. The problem was and is that at the parting lines of the cap to rod, had no oil swipes cut, relying on just the dipper is still not enough oil to lube.

Clean it up with 320 wet & dry sand paper with a lube (CRC) then a final finish with 1000/1200 paper. Check your B-end shaft sizes are all the same, if so the pick # 2 or # 3 so you have better room to work. You will more than likely find that not enough babbitt has been removed to warrant a shim to be pealed off but a light file of the cap would be enough to reset the oil clearance of .0015.


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:19 am

Be sure that the brass shims did not and do not contact the crank pin.


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:34 am

James

Kerry has given you some very good advice
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JamesD
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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by JamesD » Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:19 pm

Kerry, do you have any pictures of what the "swipes" at the parting line should look like? I found these two pictures in a post from 2011. Is it enough if I file the edge at the parting line to a 45 deg angle? I'm planning to drill out the holes in the pin boss also.
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rod babbit mtfca 2.jpg
Rod babbitt mtfca.jpg

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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by JamesD » Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:30 pm

So I did what Kerry suggested. I took some 320 and then 1000 wet/dry sandpaper and wrapped around a socket to get the appropriate diameter and polished the rod. got it pretty good I think. There are a few pits left but there's enough bearing surface to be OK. I measured the crank pin and machined a shaft to that exact size for fitting purposes. With the sanding and scraping done I put some Prussian blue on the shaft and tightened it up. I think it's OK. I measured with Plastigauge and got 0.0015" clearance.
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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:43 pm

My experience with Timesaver Yellow feldspar compound was an excellent one. I fit new rods to an old crank which had odd diameter (but consistent size/no taper) and after purchasing custom bored rods for that crank, the compound fit the rods to a dead perfect fit over 100% area and .0015" gap.

I really can't speak highly enough about the stuff. It's been around lapping Babbit for over 100 years, and that's it's purpose. It's non-embedding and breaks down to a finer and finer mesh size through use. MFG claims that you don't have to clean up, but I consider that bad practice and invites sloppy workmanship so I clean up meticulously.

Some feel it is a bandaid for "poor work". Really, nothing could be further from the truth. Particularly when trying to salvage a rod such as you're doing.

Only a very tiny bit is used at a time...far less than a thimble-full. There was once a thread where it looked like someone poured in a gallon of grey goop into an engine and a poster declared it was Timesaver and that it ruined everything. No one determined exactly what it was as the engine was an inherited problem. Quite frankly, you couldn't purchase such a volume of the stuff from the manufacturer I think, unless you were a full-blown retailer and poured in several cases of the stuff and simply stirred like it was a cement mixer. I believe that one post soured many folks and that is truly too bad.
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Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured

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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by JamesD » Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:17 pm

I've been looking online for a supplier in Canada to get some Timesaver. I could buy it online from the USA but the shipping was more than the cost of the product...I'll continue the search..
Can you answer my question of what the parting line "oil Swipe" should look like?


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Kerry » Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:38 pm

000_0746 (1).JPG
The second rod photo you posted is an original Ford, just file a 45 degree angle about 1/8" deep on cap and rod is more than enough, also file the thrust sides of the babbitt as well at the parting line.
Last edited by Kerry on Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:53 pm

Lang's Old Car Parts carries Yellow Timesaver and if you ask them to use first class and not flat rate, I'll bet that it can get to you for around $17 for a 10.50 purchase. Yes it's more than the purchase price but I'm far out from any city of any size and am forever spending 150% of purchase price on things all the time. It saves me a $20 two-hour round trip to town and I feel it's a bargain. But that's just me, I suppose. If I need something, I need it and if I need it, I get it.
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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by JamesD » Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:31 pm

Well I got the pistons honed and drilled the oil holes for the wrist pins. measured the pistons and cylinder bores (0.005" clearance) and put it all back together. It feels better now. No stiffness/seized up feeling when it it hot, just the normal resistance from compression. Thanks everyone for their advice.

Unfortunately my mag quit yesterday but I'll address that on another thread. :(

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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Will_Vanderburg » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:44 pm

Transmission pedal washers have a ridge in them that MUST sit in the notch in the nuts. Yours don’t appear to be doing that. I would not move this car under its own power again until you fix it or you’ll be yanking the entire engine and trans to fish them out.
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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by speedytinc » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:58 pm

Will_Vanderburg wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:44 pm
Transmission pedal washers have a ridge in them that MUST sit in the notch in the nuts. Yours don’t appear to be doing that. I would not move this car under its own power again until you fix it or you’ll be yanking the entire engine and trans to fish them out.
The washer lock bump is opposite the tab. The pix shows the pedal shaft slot up. Therefore if the washers were correct, you wouldnt see it.
You are correct. The poster should be certain those are the correct washers & installed correctly to lock those nuts.

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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by JamesD » Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:39 pm

Will_Vanderburg wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:44 pm
Transmission pedal washers have a ridge in them that MUST sit in the notch in the nuts. Yours don’t appear to be doing that. I would not move this car under its own power again until you fix it or you’ll be yanking the entire engine and trans to fish them out.
You may not be able to see it in the picture in this post, but I later installed the right springs and removed all the other washers. The washers on the pedal shafts are installed correctly with the tab in the slot of the shaft and the ridge in the notch of the nut, you just cant see it in the pictures. They are NOT going to fall off.

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Re: how stiff is too stiff?

Post by Will_Vanderburg » Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:41 pm

JamesD wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:39 pm
Will_Vanderburg wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:44 pm
Transmission pedal washers have a ridge in them that MUST sit in the notch in the nuts. Yours don’t appear to be doing that. I would not move this car under its own power again until you fix it or you’ll be yanking the entire engine and trans to fish them out.
You may not be able to see it in the picture in this post, but I later installed the right springs and removed all the other washers. The washers on the pedal shafts are installed correctly with the tab in the slot of the shaft and the ridge in the notch of the nut, you just cant see it in the pictures. They are NOT going to fall off.
In the pictures I saw, that was not the case. Glad you fixed it
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