MTFCA Forum

Hello everyone,

I recently noticed a rythmic, loud clacking noise coming from my 15 touring that developed after a (relatively) long drive. The speed of the noise increases with speed and is gone when at a standstill. It's loud enough to hear over the engine and other associated driving sounds, even when moving at around 35 mph. At ~25 mph it happens maybe twice per second or so. It sounds similar to having really loose wheel spokes, but the wheels are new (less than a year) and nice and tight so it isn't those. I am thinking it's a failing u-joint or perhaps a differential issue since likely neither have been serviced in quite some time. Does anyone have any ideas on how to confirm my suspicions or about what else I should look into that may be the source? Thanks

Check all the spokes in your wheels. Loose ones will make a clacking. Another thing which will is a chip in one of the gear teeth.
Norm

You can remove the u-joint grease cup & look inside @ it while slowly rotating.
I had a situation similar noise. Sounded like the transmission. Was actually the drive shaft inner race shattered. As the ring/pinion mesh got wider it got noisier until the teeth would un-mesh on deceleration. Noise traveled up the driveshaft. I checked the u-joint also to rule it out.

Could a rough check on thrust washer condition be made by jacking up the rear wheels and pulling/prying inward and outward on the rear wheels? If so, how much play would indicate trouble?

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:31 am

Could a rough check on thrust washer condition be made by jacking up the rear wheels and pulling/prying inward and outward on the rear wheels? If so, how much play would indicate trouble?

In spec .005-.010". Virtually no perceptible movement. The thrust washer pins protrude around .062". Anymore movement than that, the steel thrust washers can override.
Pulling on the right wheel, there is less room to move. Ring & pinion will hit(mesh). If it moves a bunch, D/S bearing. Pulling on left with a lot of movement, its likely a Babbitt washer. Movement is limited by parking brake shoes, especially in a small drum. Normally the problem will present in scraping noises & steel fuzz inside the parking brake drums.
A proper test is with the wheels off.

When it comes to Babbitt washers, One never knows WHEN it will explode, unless they have been replaced with bronze.

Jack up the rear end with both rear wheels off the ground and place the car in neutral. Turn the engine over with the hand crank and listen. Then do it with only one wheel off the ground. If it’s something clanking or clicking you should hear it and get pretty close to isolating it doing it this way.
Good luck.

You can do all kinds of detective work and come up with all sorts of theories. Bottom line is, even if you happen to figure it out, it won't go away by itself, or without removing the rear end and fixing it, whatever "it" is. I say, haul it out and lay eyes on the actual issue.

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:59 pm

You can do all kinds of detective work and come up with all sorts of theories. Bottom line is, even if you happen to figure it out, it won't go away by itself, or without removing the rear end and fixing it, whatever "it" is. I say, haul it out and lay eyes on the actual issue.

I couldn't agree more.

Stephen

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I am likely going to overhaul the rear end regardless (I like the piece of mind of knowing it's in good shape). A few more clues after a closer look and some measurements: the rear driver-side wheel is at a slight negative camber compared to the rear passenger-side wheel and the rear driver-side wheel drum is sticking out from the hub slightly (such that there is about a ~1 mm gap between the drum and hub), which is not present on the other side. Thrust washers are a prime suspect I think. I will report back (for posterity) when I have time to take everything apart.

erkbrn wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:40 pm

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I am likely going to overhaul the rear end regardless (I like the piece of mind of knowing it's in good shape). A few more clues after a closer look and some measurements: the rear driver-side wheel is at a slight negative camber compared to the rear passenger-side wheel and the rear driver-side wheel drum is sticking out from the hub slightly (such that there is about a ~1 mm gap between the drum and hub), which is not present on the other side. Thrust washers are a prime suspect I think. I will report back (for posterity) when I have time to take everything apart.

Sounds like your 6 wheel hub bolts are loose and your wheel is ready to fall apart. After you got your new spokes, and you installed the hubs, did you peen over the ends of the 6 hub bolts?

The wheels were made by Stutzman and I am pretty sure he uses blue loctite on the threads. They didn't look peened over but I assume that Noah knows best when it comes down to it. Have other received wheels from Stutzman where he peened the hub bolt heads?

Does it sound like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khk1BkFTYjc

"Negative Camber"

Listen to Jerry

How do you suppose he concluded (correctly) that the wheel was rebuilt without your telling him?

Yikes on the wheel, on the bright side...possibly there's nothing wrong with the rear axle.

I had wheels redone by Mr. Stutzman a few years ago. Great wheels by a true craftsman.
I picked them up at his Ohio shop (a treat to visit) and he specifically told me the hub bolts were NOT peened over as he believes whoever finishes the wheels with varnish or paint will want to remove the hubs. He made a point to tell me to certain to peen over the bolts.

Also if you are buying the hub bolts, buy the more expensive higher grade bolts. The cheaper ones stretch!
jon Crane
Rochester Mi

In addition to the thrust washers, check the outer wheel bearing. Negative castor indicates the wheel is leaning out at the bottom. This could happen if the outer bearing is very worn causing the axle to drift upward at the outer end. As the wheel turns, it might also flop around in the sleeve and causing the noise. Another possible cause could be if the nut is very loose on the end of the axle causing the hub to move outward and the wheel flop up and down as the car is driven.
Norm

Jeff5015 wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 10, 2021 3:29 pm

Does it sound like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khk1BkFTYjc

No, much louder and much less frequent. The wheels were making similar sounds to this before rebuilding, which is why I sent them out. The new sound also sounds like its coming from closer to the center of the car.

I will take the wheels off and inspect the tightness of the hub bolts, as well as do the peening.

What Norm said resonates, as the front bearings were pretty worn out when I replaced the front wheels (they pretty much fell apart in my hand when I removed them). It is likely the rear ones may be in a similar shape.

Here are some pictures attempting to show the wheel camber and the gap between the drum and the axle housing.

Normal-looking fitment on the passenger side: Fitment on the driver side (with negative camber): Passenger side drum closeup: Driver side drum closeup: Attempt to better show the slight gap not present on the other side:

Driver's side is the side that appears to fit properly with respect to the location of the edge of the drum to the backing plate. The passenger's side goes on at least 1/4" too far.

As far as "negative camber" I don't see anything which remotely resembles a problem.

Rear axle making grinding noises, that's a concern, but the last place I'd look is the driver's side wheel at this point.

Set that far inboard, I'm not sure how on earth the passenger side wheel nuts are NOT hitting the perch nut.

And the nuts/bolts do need to be piened.

Eric, when I saw your photos, my attention was drawn to the road easer shock absorbers. They look like the Richards Wilcox English made ones often fitted by Duncan and Fraser to the cars sold by them in Adelaide, South Australia. Then I took a closer look at the way the corner panels are fitted to the bodywork, and that looks like D & F work also. So I looked for wheel spokes with the inside to outside taper on alternate spokes as our Canadian sourced cars have, but as you have Stutzman rebuilt wheels, they may have been discarded.
Can we have a couple of photos of the whole car?

Allan from down under.

Take the wheels off and inspect the hubs & axle tapers. Then pull out the rear end and inspect everything. All of the above is guesswork and largely, a waste of time. Your car has a problem that needs a hands-on fix.

Eric,
I notice that you live in San Diego, however, are not on our club roster. What area in San Diego do you live? Perhaps I could come over and look at your car and listen to it clack. It would be easier to diagnose in person.
Also, I would like to invite you to join our club. We will be meeting this Wednesday evening at Maggie's starting at 6:00 PM (Many arrive about 5:30.) This location is in the area near I- 8 and I- 805 at 3232 Greyling Drive This is about a block off Gramercy and south of Aero Drive.
Norm

Allan wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:38 am

Eric, when I saw your photos, my attention was drawn to the road easer shock absorbers. They look like the Richards Wilcox English made ones often fitted by Duncan and Fraser to the cars sold by them in Adelaide, South Australia. Then I took a closer look at the way the corner panels are fitted to the bodywork, and that looks like D & F work also. So I looked for wheel spokes with the inside to outside taper on alternate spokes as our Canadian sourced cars have, but as you have Stutzman rebuilt wheels, they may have been discarded.
Can we have a couple of photos of the whole car?

Allan from down under.

Allan, I don't know about any of those things for sure or much about the history of the car. I know it has been in Southern California for at least 15 years, and sometime prior to that it was in Washington state but not much else. I kept pieces of the spokes from the previous wheels (thought maybe they would make an interesting chess set or something), I attached some pictures. Not sure what else on the car you're looking to see, but here's a couple more shots. It's currently in a tight garage so good pics are difficult to get. When I had the wheels rebuilt, I sent some of the spokes to Noah Stutzman and I believe he made them the same way.

Spokes: Front axle: Underside:

Norman Kling wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:04 am

Eric,
I notice that you live in San Diego, however, are not on our club roster. What area in San Diego do you live? Perhaps I could come over and look at your car and listen to it clack. It would be easier to diagnose in person.
Also, I would like to invite you to join our club. We will be meeting this Wednesday evening at Maggie's starting at 6:00 PM (Many arrive about 5:30.) This location is in the area near I- 8 and I- 805 at 3232 Greyling Drive This is about a block off Gramercy and south of Aero Drive.
Norm

Norm, I am part of the San Diego club already (two years or so), I haven't been to a meeting since the pandemic started but I am planning to attend the meeting you mentioned. I live around El Cajon now, so not far from you. I will reintroduce myself then and we can talk more about it.

Update for posterity...this may have had something to do with the noise I was hearing

Babbitt washers gone or D/S bearing/sleeve gone?

The thrust washers were still in good shape (one was bronze, one was babbitt) and so was the DS bearing. The DS bearing sleeve had a chip or two out of it, but it was still there and holding tight otherwise. Could be the chips from the bearing sleeve caused the devastation. Could also have been that most of the gear oil had leaked out and been replaced by engine oil. Perhaps all of the above. There was no shortage of metal pieces in the fluid that was drained out, that's for sure.