Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
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Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
I have been hearing about fan failures and damaged radiators, hoods and other bits for years. I converted the '23 Runabout to the newer fan & ball bearing hub years ago & more or less forgot about them. They don't give any issues.
Now I'm working up a '14 Touring to be a tour car and got to thinking about the fan & hub. The hub throws grease all over the engine bay and the old fan while very elegant, worries me. Some previous owner replaced the original engine with one from a '19. In looking over the parts suppliers online catalogs I see the hub is for '21 and later and the fan is for '20 and later. Would they work on the '19 engine in the '14 car or would something bad happen?
Paul
Now I'm working up a '14 Touring to be a tour car and got to thinking about the fan & hub. The hub throws grease all over the engine bay and the old fan while very elegant, worries me. Some previous owner replaced the original engine with one from a '19. In looking over the parts suppliers online catalogs I see the hub is for '21 and later and the fan is for '20 and later. Would they work on the '19 engine in the '14 car or would something bad happen?
Paul
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
I believe fan failures are due to rivets fastening blades to the hub. Without looking at my ‘14, I think there’s 4 rivets per blade - or 16 total. You’ll be OK running a later model fan and hub.
I don’t know why I turned out this way. My parents were decent people.
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
The fan that is on it now is a good looking one. I'm not sure if it is from the '14, the '19 or something else. This is the best picture I could find of it.
Paul
Paul
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
Are the paper gasket & felt fan shaft washer needed with the ball bearing hub & new fan set-up?
Paul
Paul
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
The ball bearing brass hub fan is $$$, and a little different from the original design, but I have one on my '11 and am pleased with it.
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
Well, it appears that you’re running one of the fans with 4 rivets per blade. Grab each blade and shake it watching its 4 rivets. If none are loose, you’ll might be OK.
I don’t know why I turned out this way. My parents were decent people.
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
Thanks George, I'll take a closer look at the fan and see if there is any looseness.
KW, I see the brass one online. It looks like an older style fan has to be riveted to it?
Are the gasket & felt washer needed with either of the ball bearing units?
Paul
KW, I see the brass one online. It looks like an older style fan has to be riveted to it?
Are the gasket & felt washer needed with either of the ball bearing units?
Paul
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
I believe you need to rivet the fan on yourself.
Keith
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
Hello,
I have seen many cracked fan blades.I will not argue with look for loose rivets, but I do not feel the is the primary cause of most fan blade failures.
And I feel this applies to not just the early four blade riveted fans but the next version what I call the one piece pear shaped fan assembly.
In most cast I believe the cracking problem was solved with the last version with the rectangular fan blade assembly.
Take the fan assembly off the car. Clean the fan blades next to the rivets thoroughly. Look for cracks that will usually propagate out from the two outer rivets on the fan blade. If a pear shaped fan look for cracks near the intersection of the fan blades at the hub.
I believe new replacement four blade fan blades are one gauge thicker than the original and when properly riveted to the fan hub will reduce the likely hood of fan blade failure considerably.
One last suggestion. Make sure all fan related components are matched. Make sure crank pulleys and fan hubs are the correct sizes for what you are running. An example is if you are using a later engine with a large crank pulley and and early fan with a small hub you can easily over rev the fan and cause stresses on the fan blade that will cause fan blade failure. Bottom line, make sure all fan components are matched to minimize potential for fan blade failure.
Terry
I have seen many cracked fan blades.I will not argue with look for loose rivets, but I do not feel the is the primary cause of most fan blade failures.
And I feel this applies to not just the early four blade riveted fans but the next version what I call the one piece pear shaped fan assembly.
In most cast I believe the cracking problem was solved with the last version with the rectangular fan blade assembly.
Take the fan assembly off the car. Clean the fan blades next to the rivets thoroughly. Look for cracks that will usually propagate out from the two outer rivets on the fan blade. If a pear shaped fan look for cracks near the intersection of the fan blades at the hub.
I believe new replacement four blade fan blades are one gauge thicker than the original and when properly riveted to the fan hub will reduce the likely hood of fan blade failure considerably.
One last suggestion. Make sure all fan related components are matched. Make sure crank pulleys and fan hubs are the correct sizes for what you are running. An example is if you are using a later engine with a large crank pulley and and early fan with a small hub you can easily over rev the fan and cause stresses on the fan blade that will cause fan blade failure. Bottom line, make sure all fan components are matched to minimize potential for fan blade failure.
Terry
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
I have a 14. I know there is a ball bearing adapter. Running ball bearings V/S a bushing doesnt concern me. Its the 4 individually riveted blades that come off in search of a radiator tank to pierce. I do like the heavy, late repo fan blades. I believe the are too large far use on a brass radiator. I suppose one could be cut down to fit. In this situation I am more concerned with performance over originality.
My burning question is: Is there a safer replacement fan blade/fan unit to use in place of the "correct" 4 piece blades.
My burning question is: Is there a safer replacement fan blade/fan unit to use in place of the "correct" 4 piece blades.
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
The later aluminum pulley with sealed bearings and the accompanying fan blade will not fit with a brass 14 radiator without trimming the fan blades down. I have a ball bearing brass fan pulley with riveted blades on my 15 and am very happy with it. I would go that route over trimming the blades, but either way will work.
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
You poor guy...you keep asking the same question and everyone is so intent on solving problems you haven't mentioned, there's never been a response
so
No, you don't need paper gaskets with a new brass ball bearing fan hub
Now, I'll pontificate some too...they are very nice, but you will have to make a custom spacer to keep it in one place on the fan shaft. I installed one about a year ago (had to buy the blades separate as the full assembly was not in stock) and I vaguely remember that something about the length wasn't quite right. The instructions don't mention it and apparently neither will the forum. The gauge of the blades is slightly heavier than original as previously mentioned, and importantly, seem to have less pitch to them and definitely draw less air when sitting. Once all installed it worked just fine.
You were given good advice to inspect the old blades very carefully. If they are not cracked and still run pretty much in the same plane, you're good to do any repairs you see fit. Myself, I fit new bronze bushings to the old cast iron hubs and gently grease them as they were meant to be. Thus repaired with a .0015 clearance to a new shaft, they will constantly throw a small amount of grease while continuing to run another 95 years. It's an antique car. They throw grease. And drip oil.
so
No, you don't need paper gaskets with a new brass ball bearing fan hub
Now, I'll pontificate some too...they are very nice, but you will have to make a custom spacer to keep it in one place on the fan shaft. I installed one about a year ago (had to buy the blades separate as the full assembly was not in stock) and I vaguely remember that something about the length wasn't quite right. The instructions don't mention it and apparently neither will the forum. The gauge of the blades is slightly heavier than original as previously mentioned, and importantly, seem to have less pitch to them and definitely draw less air when sitting. Once all installed it worked just fine.
You were given good advice to inspect the old blades very carefully. If they are not cracked and still run pretty much in the same plane, you're good to do any repairs you see fit. Myself, I fit new bronze bushings to the old cast iron hubs and gently grease them as they were meant to be. Thus repaired with a .0015 clearance to a new shaft, they will constantly throw a small amount of grease while continuing to run another 95 years. It's an antique car. They throw grease. And drip oil.
Scott Conger
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
There was a crack in one of the fan blades on my '27 when I bought the car. There was also grease from the fan pulley all over the engine compartment. In one of the few areas where I have departed from original, I bought a new fan and Aluminum sealed-bearing pulley from Lang's. No fan issues, no more grease. I'd do it again. I also understand that the later style pulley may not fit the earlier engines; if you are not going to show the car, if I were you I would see if there's a way to make the new-style pulley fit. JMO.
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
John
I, too, run the same pulley as you do on one of my cars that I used to tour with. I agree that it is nice not to have the grease sling, but I can say that the bearings are wearing, and I carry a spare. The belief that ball bearings are superior in service life or a longer-lasting fix over the plain bearing is not necessarily rooted in reality, but it certainly is true that they are cleaner and require no service other than to check for slack due to wear...and if significant wear is detected it is best to replace them sooner than later.
As for fitting it to an earlier car, there really is no need to go to the effort as a ball bearing model of the earlier hub is available. I put one in a friend's car and it was well made and worked fine. Time will tell if the bearings used are robust enough for the use.
I, too, run the same pulley as you do on one of my cars that I used to tour with. I agree that it is nice not to have the grease sling, but I can say that the bearings are wearing, and I carry a spare. The belief that ball bearings are superior in service life or a longer-lasting fix over the plain bearing is not necessarily rooted in reality, but it certainly is true that they are cleaner and require no service other than to check for slack due to wear...and if significant wear is detected it is best to replace them sooner than later.
As for fitting it to an earlier car, there really is no need to go to the effort as a ball bearing model of the earlier hub is available. I put one in a friend's car and it was well made and worked fine. Time will tell if the bearings used are robust enough for the use.
Scott Conger
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
My concern is with the 4 riveted blades working loose. Bushings VS ball bearings dont concern me. So, converting an early hub to ball bearings doesnt gain me enough. A little slung grease dont bother me.Scott_Conger wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:44 amJohn
I, too, run the same pulley as you do on one of my cars that I used to tour with. I agree that it is nice not to have the grease sling, but I can say that the bearings are wearing, and I carry a spare. The belief that ball bearings are superior in service life or a longer-lasting fix over the plain bearing is not necessarily rooted in reality, but it certainly is true that they are cleaner and require no service other than to check for slack due to wear...and if significant wear is detected it is best to replace them sooner than later.
As for fitting it to an earlier car, there really is no need to go to the effort as a ball bearing model of the earlier hub is available. I put one in a friend's car and it was well made and worked fine. Time will tell if the bearings used are robust enough for the use.
I like the sturdiness & added peace of mind of the late repo type fan blades. I am thinking my answer is a late ball bearing hub (might as well do the upgrade to bearings if I am going non stock anyway) & late fan trimmed to fit a brass car. Your thoughts?
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
Scott,
I would assume that the bearings are standard units. If so, it should be possible - perhaps even easy, to purchase the bearings and either press them in yourself or have any halfway decent automotive machine shop press them in for you. If you have a decent-sized vice, you have a bearing press. So far no issues with bearing wear in my T. In this application I suspect that it is the quality of the bearings that will determine service life. As bearings go, the fan pulley bearings are not particularly stressed, and if of good quality should last longer then we will.
I would assume that the bearings are standard units. If so, it should be possible - perhaps even easy, to purchase the bearings and either press them in yourself or have any halfway decent automotive machine shop press them in for you. If you have a decent-sized vice, you have a bearing press. So far no issues with bearing wear in my T. In this application I suspect that it is the quality of the bearings that will determine service life. As bearings go, the fan pulley bearings are not particularly stressed, and if of good quality should last longer then we will.
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
Thanks to all for the information, it has been helpful. I was hoping to simply repeat the setup on the '23 but now understand that this will not work, the new fan is too big to clear the brass radiator.
I guess the next step will be to remove the existing fan/hub unit and see what condition it is in. I'll check the rivets for tightness and the blades for cracks. Also, I'll check the bushings & the shaft for wear. Possibly nothing needs to be done.
Will the felt washer will be needed on reassembly?
If I do find issues, what then? I see new blades and a ball bearing hub are available but I know nothing about driving rivets. Could I sub screws & nuts with lock washers & Locktite?
Paul, sorting it out bit by bit . . .
I guess the next step will be to remove the existing fan/hub unit and see what condition it is in. I'll check the rivets for tightness and the blades for cracks. Also, I'll check the bushings & the shaft for wear. Possibly nothing needs to be done.
Will the felt washer will be needed on reassembly?
If I do find issues, what then? I see new blades and a ball bearing hub are available but I know nothing about driving rivets. Could I sub screws & nuts with lock washers & Locktite?
Paul, sorting it out bit by bit . . .
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
there are no felt washers, gaskets or anything else...just bushings
the bushings are like no other, and unless you're a machinist, you'd buy replacements from a supplier and likely ask a machinist friend to install and line-ream. That in itself may drive the price of a repair up enough that the new ballbearing model starts to look appealing.
My '13 and '15 are sporting rebuilt original hubs. Those have the bushings soldered in place in a barely-machined casting and are bored in place. Those take a good deal of care to replace and get right. The later fan hub like yours is more completely machined and should not be a challenge for a machinist, but in any event will require line-reaming (and for the honing boys, feel free to replace "line reaming" with "Honeing").
Just don't make it too tight...at least .0015" clearance but not much more.
Most fan-hub failures/seizures are due to mistaking "close fit" for "proper fit" in an attempt to keep grease slinging to a minimum.
the bushings are like no other, and unless you're a machinist, you'd buy replacements from a supplier and likely ask a machinist friend to install and line-ream. That in itself may drive the price of a repair up enough that the new ballbearing model starts to look appealing.
My '13 and '15 are sporting rebuilt original hubs. Those have the bushings soldered in place in a barely-machined casting and are bored in place. Those take a good deal of care to replace and get right. The later fan hub like yours is more completely machined and should not be a challenge for a machinist, but in any event will require line-reaming (and for the honing boys, feel free to replace "line reaming" with "Honeing").
Just don't make it too tight...at least .0015" clearance but not much more.
Most fan-hub failures/seizures are due to mistaking "close fit" for "proper fit" in an attempt to keep grease slinging to a minimum.
Scott Conger
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
On second thought. The later ball bearing hub will slow my fan speed, maybe too much. Now I think the better solution for myself is to make a small diameter pulley hub from a chunk of T6 with 4 holes to mount the later fan blades. Machine for sealed bearings & Trim the blades.
Paul: If you have the later large crank pulley, you could use the late ball bearing hub, but, you would need to trim the fan blades also. I think the fan blades are different diameters. Fan speed should be considered. (Assuming you have the same rivet phobia) I will confirm when I get to the shop.
If your crank pulley is the later large, your fan is currently spinning faster than intended. Might lead to premature riveted blade failure?
"Will the felt washer will be needed on reassembly?" The early fan doesnt use the cup washer & felt. Thats why its messier.
"If I do find issues, what then? I see new blades and a ball bearing hub are available but I know nothing about driving rivets. Could I sub screws & nuts with lock washers & Locktite?" I also dont trust my rivet skills on such a critical part. There is interference to a straight bucking of the inside rivet head.
I have seen the job done with screws & lock nuts. A mutual fried had loose rivets also. I believe he bought a complete unit from langs with rivets installed.
Paul: If you have the later large crank pulley, you could use the late ball bearing hub, but, you would need to trim the fan blades also. I think the fan blades are different diameters. Fan speed should be considered. (Assuming you have the same rivet phobia) I will confirm when I get to the shop.
If your crank pulley is the later large, your fan is currently spinning faster than intended. Might lead to premature riveted blade failure?
"Will the felt washer will be needed on reassembly?" The early fan doesnt use the cup washer & felt. Thats why its messier.
"If I do find issues, what then? I see new blades and a ball bearing hub are available but I know nothing about driving rivets. Could I sub screws & nuts with lock washers & Locktite?" I also dont trust my rivet skills on such a critical part. There is interference to a straight bucking of the inside rivet head.
I have seen the job done with screws & lock nuts. A mutual fried had loose rivets also. I believe he bought a complete unit from langs with rivets installed.
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
I'm not sure how to tell early from late crank pulleys. This motor could have anything. It is a '19 but has a 4 dip pan. As I understand it, it was built by a good Model T mechanic in the 1960s with the best "stuff" available at the time.
I had another look at the fan & shot a few pics. It has a T number on the shaft and looks to be steel rather than brass. From what I can see on the car, everything looks solid. It will have to come off for closer inspection.
Earlier in this thread a complete new assembled ball bearing hub with the new blades already riveted on was mentioned. Lang's lists it on the website. This would seem to solve all problems, it needs only paint. A new shaft would eliminate fitting worries also. All this is all great but it is very spendy.
I can see how to get the fan/hub assembly off by removing the adjusting bolt. How does the fan/hub assembly itself come apart? I do not see anything to take it all loose. Its been almost 2 decades since I did the '23 & I do not recall much about the process.
Paul
I had another look at the fan & shot a few pics. It has a T number on the shaft and looks to be steel rather than brass. From what I can see on the car, everything looks solid. It will have to come off for closer inspection.
Earlier in this thread a complete new assembled ball bearing hub with the new blades already riveted on was mentioned. Lang's lists it on the website. This would seem to solve all problems, it needs only paint. A new shaft would eliminate fitting worries also. All this is all great but it is very spendy.
I can see how to get the fan/hub assembly off by removing the adjusting bolt. How does the fan/hub assembly itself come apart? I do not see anything to take it all loose. Its been almost 2 decades since I did the '23 & I do not recall much about the process.
Paul
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
The crank pulley on your 23 is the large style. Your pix doesnt show it. Compare them. The early version is at least 1" smaller in diameter.Your fan hub is later 17 ish. The grease fitting on the inboard side of the fan acts as a lock nut. When you remove the fan assembly, you will see a disk in front with 2 flats to unscrew it from the arm.Hudson29 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:55 pmI'm not sure how to tell early from late crank pulleys. This motor could have anything. It is a '19 but has a 4 dip pan. As I understand it, it was built by a good Model T mechanic in the 1960s with the best "stuff" available at the time.
I had another look at the fan & shot a few pics. It has a T number on the shaft and looks to be steel rather than brass. From what I can see on the car, everything looks solid. It will have to come off for closer inspection.
Earlier in this thread a complete new assembled ball bearing hub with the new blades already riveted on was mentioned. Lang's lists it on the website. This would seem to solve all problems, it needs only paint. A new shaft would eliminate fitting worries also. All this is all great but it is very spendy.
I can see how to get the fan/hub assembly off by removing the adjusting bolt. How does the fan/hub assembly itself come apart? I do not see anything to take it all loose. Its been almost 2 decades since I did the '23 & I do not recall much about the process.
Paul
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
As an FYI, your fan bracket arm is the earlier "bent" style. You may wish to change it out to the longer, straight version which would be correct for your car. It will require purchasing a longer fan belt but will bring the fan up a bit to where it belongs.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
I believe you might be mistaken Scott - all brass radiator cars use the bent fan arm as far as I know - I have 3 brass T's - I don't believe the straight arm will put the fan in the correct position.
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
Steve, his car is much later than brass...and I agree with you, BTW
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Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
The T is a frankin 14.(aka tour upgraded?) Has a later block & other stuff. Fan & hardware has to be compatible with "brass" era.Scott_Conger wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:52 pmSteve, his car is much later than brass...and I agree with you, BTW
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
Thanks John for clearing up my fuzzy thinking
SORRY STEVE! My error.
I looked at the title and have long forgotten about the initial description, including the first picture clearly showing a brass radiator. I'm usually pretty careful to read the question and all of the replies in order to remain relevant to the conversation, but I surely flubbed this one.
SORRY STEVE! My error.
I looked at the title and have long forgotten about the initial description, including the first picture clearly showing a brass radiator. I'm usually pretty careful to read the question and all of the replies in order to remain relevant to the conversation, but I surely flubbed this one.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
We're all good !
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
This car was "restored" in the 1960s. I have DMV docs dating back to 1965. It looks to be made up from a combination of good solid original 1914 sheetmetal, body & other bits like the front axle mixed with a starter/generator motor from a 1919. John had looked at the pictures of the undercarriage and identified the chassis as having come from a later model. The car has about every accessory available at '60s swaps.
My goal is to make it into a reliable tour car that looks as correct as possible without going overboard. Someday if I find the parts needed to be a proper '14 it may be actually restored without the quotes.
Paul
My goal is to make it into a reliable tour car that looks as correct as possible without going overboard. Someday if I find the parts needed to be a proper '14 it may be actually restored without the quotes.
Paul
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
Quite a nice looking car
It's a '14 unless you get a nit-picker to go all over it. Drive more than you park and that will not happen.
Buy the Lang's ball bearing fan and just be done with it
It's a '14 unless you get a nit-picker to go all over it. Drive more than you park and that will not happen.
Buy the Lang's ball bearing fan and just be done with it
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
BTW, I just noticed, your fan arm pivot bolt doesnt have a cotter pin. Having seen one back out & bite the radiator, consider installing one soon.Hudson29 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:55 pmI'm not sure how to tell early from late crank pulleys. This motor could have anything. It is a '19 but has a 4 dip pan. As I understand it, it was built by a good Model T mechanic in the 1960s with the best "stuff" available at the time.
I had another look at the fan & shot a few pics. It has a T number on the shaft and looks to be steel rather than brass. From what I can see on the car, everything looks solid. It will have to come off for closer inspection.
Earlier in this thread a complete new assembled ball bearing hub with the new blades already riveted on was mentioned. Lang's lists it on the website. This would seem to solve all problems, it needs only paint. A new shaft would eliminate fitting worries also. All this is all great but it is very spendy.
I can see how to get the fan/hub assembly off by removing the adjusting bolt. How does the fan/hub assembly itself come apart? I do not see anything to take it all loose. Its been almost 2 decades since I did the '23 & I do not recall much about the process.
Paul
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
I just ordered one already riveted from Lang's. I have a lot of work to do on this car (I'm working on it today) to bring it up to speed and this seemed the best way to get the project moving along. You are right about the cotter pin. I will fit one and check the '23 to make sure I didn't forget it there.
Its a pretty car and a nice driving car. I anticipate many years of pleasant touring in the future.
Paul
Its a pretty car and a nice driving car. I anticipate many years of pleasant touring in the future.
Paul
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
Much to my surprise, a package from Lang's arrived today in the mail. I just ordered the fan/ball bearing hub assembly late last week, possibly Thursday and it has come all the way across the country in two working days plus the weekend. They had to do the riveting job too. That's service!
The fan & hub look great, no looseness in the blades. I also ordered the shaft to fit and with the spacers installed the fan whirls merrily. I'll bet I'll save a 1/4 horsepower to help get up those hills . . .
Next will be to degrease & paint it semi gloss black. A co-worker saw it while I was looking for fixtures to paint it and objected to my painting the brass hub. What material was the hub of a 1914 made from? Was it steel or brass?
Paul
The fan & hub look great, no looseness in the blades. I also ordered the shaft to fit and with the spacers installed the fan whirls merrily. I'll bet I'll save a 1/4 horsepower to help get up those hills . . .
Next will be to degrease & paint it semi gloss black. A co-worker saw it while I was looking for fixtures to paint it and objected to my painting the brass hub. What material was the hub of a 1914 made from? Was it steel or brass?
Paul
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
Hub was brass on 14.
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
What is that sleeve and washer for in the pics above? Do you need those with the ball bearing fan? I just ordered one from Lang’s and I don’t see any references to those two parts.
1913 Canadian Touring & 1905 Queen, both cars are 4 generation family owned cars
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
OK, I may leave it unpainted. I will need to hand paint the rivet heads if I leave it brass . . .
Paul
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
The two spacers came with the hub/fan assembly. The shaft was separate. Putting all together it makes a nice tight unit. Assuming your hub was the brass one, possibly it came with different bearings that did not need the spacers? How does the assembly work?Darren J Wallace wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:04 pmWhat is that sleeve and washer for in the pics above? Do you need those with the ball bearing fan? I just ordered one from Lang’s and I don’t see any references to those two parts.
The man with a watch always knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
Here I go again! I have a genuine original Ford brass pulley fan in my '13. It has over 55,000 miles on it and is still working like Ford intended. Why switch? I did have to add a washer to the back side of the fan bracket to get the belt to track right. I have found the Gates belts that Langs sells to work much better than any other.
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
Larry, the reasons are pretty well discussed at the beginning of this thread, just read the early posts. I understand you do not agree.Original Smith wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:58 amHere I go again! I have a genuine original Ford brass pulley fan in my '13. It has over 55,000 miles on it and is still working like Ford intended. Why switch? I did have to add a washer to the back side of the fan bracket to get the belt to track right. I have found the Gates belts that Langs sells to work much better than any other.
Paul
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
The fan is out of the paint shop & ready to install. Its out baking in the sun right now to get that modern paint as hard as it can be to resist scratches while being installed.
Paul
Paul
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
My original fan is really worn out and someone cut the corners of each blade a long time ago. Until I decide a course of action with it, I’ve installed the modern ball bearing version. I had to rivet it together myself but that’s no problem in my own machine shop. I installed it today and have to say it’s not a bad repro. It’s not exactly like the original but it’s good and it works. I chose to paint the entire assembly as my original was that way. I must say the brass and black does look nice in the above pics!
1913 Canadian Touring & 1905 Queen, both cars are 4 generation family owned cars
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
I wonder why they cut your fan that way? Is it well balanced?
I'm far from sure if the fan & hub should have been painted. I have seen plenty of photos that seem to indicate that motors in the later cars like my '23 should be painted black. Other photos seem to indicated that possibly the earlier cars like the '14 might not have been. I decided to split the difference and paint the steel parts leaving the brass as it was. After a few years it will hardly matter as the brass will tarnish and get coated with oily grime.
I see your grease cup is in a different place than mine is. Is that an earlier or later version?
Paul
I'm far from sure if the fan & hub should have been painted. I have seen plenty of photos that seem to indicate that motors in the later cars like my '23 should be painted black. Other photos seem to indicated that possibly the earlier cars like the '14 might not have been. I decided to split the difference and paint the steel parts leaving the brass as it was. After a few years it will hardly matter as the brass will tarnish and get coated with oily grime.
I see your grease cup is in a different place than mine is. Is that an earlier or later version?
Paul
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
I got the fan installed Sunday. The old one did not have any loose rivets or cracks that I could see but there was some wear in the shaft or bushings so that a fair amount of slop was present.
The new assembly went together well and spins freely with just a bit of end float. I found it easier to get the fan belt back on by removing the crank. An oddity here, the ratchet part would not allow the in to go through until I tried it 180° out from the first attempt.
Overall it looks good & I expect the new fan and ball bearing hub will give good service.
Paul
The new assembly went together well and spins freely with just a bit of end float. I found it easier to get the fan belt back on by removing the crank. An oddity here, the ratchet part would not allow the in to go through until I tried it 180° out from the first attempt.
Overall it looks good & I expect the new fan and ball bearing hub will give good service.
Paul
Last edited by Hudson29 on Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
Since you asked. Your grease elbow is not correct. The fan bolt takes a special grease cup. The base acts as a jamb nut for the fan shaft.(like your elbow) Imagine that dope cup base with the 1/8 pipe threads cut off & hexed area with an internal thread. Your setup is easier on the fingers to lube.
Woodie C. was about driving & function over originality.
Woodie C. was about driving & function over originality.
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
I've assembled and installed one for a friend and was very pleased with it
Some unsolicited advice:
The small amount of axial movement on my friends was in the range of 3/64" and I made a custom spacer for it. Now, you don't want to load the bearing, but you do want to bring axial movement to a very minimum to the extent that you can. I checked my work a couple of times at different operating temperatures so as to be certain that no material movement occured sufficiently to load the bearings. When I was done, there was just barely perceptible movement along the shaft. Ideally, you want the proper designed preload on them, but I do not know the kind of bearings used and do not want to risk damage by excessive preload, and neither do you. You want this so that the balls are not subjected to banging on the races axially. Folks don't realize it, but automobiles shipped by rail used to have wheel bearing failures due to brinelling that occured during transportation. A version of that failure is possible with bearings in this sort of use as well, though in this case it would be fretting, not brinelling. I had to modify my '23 ball bearing hub similarly.
Note: this zero-slack or minimal preload is for precision caged ball bearings. You do NOT want a preload on your front wheels (for anyone else reading this) as they are an entirely different ball bearing design. Just barely slack is ideal (and don't try to load one extra ball into the mix in an effort to fill that gap!)
You can effect this reduction in slop by selecting and purchasing the correct combination of shims here, and avoid any custom machining: https://www.mcmaster.com/shims/shape~ring/ring-shims-7/
Finally, the bearings are considered permanently lubricated (decide for yourself if this is true) and with shields in place, cannot be lubricated externally, so you might want to take off the elbow contraption and reinstall the grease cup as the locknut that it is intended to be. Since it is no longer functional, the extra plumbing is unnecessary.
Don't throw the old fan away!! Someone wants it and will rebuild it if it's surplus to your needs.
Glad you're making progress
Some unsolicited advice:
The small amount of axial movement on my friends was in the range of 3/64" and I made a custom spacer for it. Now, you don't want to load the bearing, but you do want to bring axial movement to a very minimum to the extent that you can. I checked my work a couple of times at different operating temperatures so as to be certain that no material movement occured sufficiently to load the bearings. When I was done, there was just barely perceptible movement along the shaft. Ideally, you want the proper designed preload on them, but I do not know the kind of bearings used and do not want to risk damage by excessive preload, and neither do you. You want this so that the balls are not subjected to banging on the races axially. Folks don't realize it, but automobiles shipped by rail used to have wheel bearing failures due to brinelling that occured during transportation. A version of that failure is possible with bearings in this sort of use as well, though in this case it would be fretting, not brinelling. I had to modify my '23 ball bearing hub similarly.
Note: this zero-slack or minimal preload is for precision caged ball bearings. You do NOT want a preload on your front wheels (for anyone else reading this) as they are an entirely different ball bearing design. Just barely slack is ideal (and don't try to load one extra ball into the mix in an effort to fill that gap!)
You can effect this reduction in slop by selecting and purchasing the correct combination of shims here, and avoid any custom machining: https://www.mcmaster.com/shims/shape~ring/ring-shims-7/
Finally, the bearings are considered permanently lubricated (decide for yourself if this is true) and with shields in place, cannot be lubricated externally, so you might want to take off the elbow contraption and reinstall the grease cup as the locknut that it is intended to be. Since it is no longer functional, the extra plumbing is unnecessary.
Don't throw the old fan away!! Someone wants it and will rebuild it if it's surplus to your needs.
Glad you're making progress
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
Thanks guys, I'll order the proper grease cup and switch it out. The elbow will go in the spare parts box with the fan and the old shaft. The old assembly looked pretty good except it was worn and a bit loose. I'll bet a new set of bushings and a new shaft would set it right. I'm still not sure about cracks and feel happier with the new one.
Thanks Scott for the McMaster page. I have an account there for my business and would not mind ordering a selection of shims to fit the fan shaft. What size would I need to order to fit that shaft?
That sort of shim also look like they would work for the rear axle. I have always heard that these axle nuts should be tightened as far as possible & then backed out to the next section of the nut so as to be able to fit the split pin. I tighten them pretty tight with a 3/4 drive socket & breaker bar but had to back the nut off to get the pin in. Now its snug but not really tight. I read somewhere here on the forum that the bottom of the nut should be filed to allow it to go to the next position. I tried this and could hear the nut laughing at me. It hurt my pride to be laughed at by a nut but then so many things on the Model T seem to have the same sense of humor that I have just gotten used to it.
OK, I can't file it but a circular shim ought to do just as well. What size would be needed to fit on the axle? I might as well order a selection of them for both applications.
Paul
Thanks Scott for the McMaster page. I have an account there for my business and would not mind ordering a selection of shims to fit the fan shaft. What size would I need to order to fit that shaft?
That sort of shim also look like they would work for the rear axle. I have always heard that these axle nuts should be tightened as far as possible & then backed out to the next section of the nut so as to be able to fit the split pin. I tighten them pretty tight with a 3/4 drive socket & breaker bar but had to back the nut off to get the pin in. Now its snug but not really tight. I read somewhere here on the forum that the bottom of the nut should be filed to allow it to go to the next position. I tried this and could hear the nut laughing at me. It hurt my pride to be laughed at by a nut but then so many things on the Model T seem to have the same sense of humor that I have just gotten used to it.
OK, I can't file it but a circular shim ought to do just as well. What size would be needed to fit on the axle? I might as well order a selection of them for both applications.
Paul
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
No axle nut shim. Tighten with your breaker bar, then use your weight to the next hole or 2. Has to be real tight. 90#? If your pin hole is outside the castle, add a grade 8 washer. If you had a wheel off, tighten & recheck torque after a drive.Hudson29 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:59 pmThanks guys, I'll order the proper grease cup and switch it out. The elbow will go in the spare parts box with the fan and the old shaft. The old assembly looked pretty good except it was worn and a bit loose. I'll bet a new set of bushings and a new shaft would set it right. I'm still not sure about cracks and feel happier with the new one.
Thanks Scott for the McMaster page. I have an account there for my business and would not mind ordering a selection of shims to fit the fan shaft. What size would I need to order to fit that shaft?
That sort of shim also look like they would work for the rear axle. I have always heard that these axle nuts should be tightened as far as possible & then backed out to the next section of the nut so as to be able to fit the split pin. I tighten them pretty tight with a 3/4 drive socket & breaker bar but had to back the nut off to get the pin in. Now its snug but not really tight. I read somewhere here on the forum that the bottom of the nut should be filed to allow it to go to the next position. I tried this and could hear the nut laughing at me. It hurt my pride to be laughed at by a nut but then so many things on the Model T seem to have the same sense of humor that I have just gotten used to it.
OK, I can't file it but a circular shim ought to do just as well. What size would be needed to fit on the axle? I might as well order a selection of them for both applications.
Paul
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Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
Paul
I am not holding a shaft in my hand right now, but the answer is to buy whatever ID shim(s) it is that is a dead slip-fit over the shaft, in the thickness an indicator would dictate is prudent. This will get clamped between the very short spacer and the bearing nearest the engine and remove the excessive fore/aft play. "Excessive" children's play is measured in decibels, "excessive" fan play is measured in thousandths. Reducing either when it is necessary, is beneficial.
I am not holding a shaft in my hand right now, but the answer is to buy whatever ID shim(s) it is that is a dead slip-fit over the shaft, in the thickness an indicator would dictate is prudent. This will get clamped between the very short spacer and the bearing nearest the engine and remove the excessive fore/aft play. "Excessive" children's play is measured in decibels, "excessive" fan play is measured in thousandths. Reducing either when it is necessary, is beneficial.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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- Posts: 279
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:41 pm
- First Name: Bill
- Last Name: Hoffer
- Location: Mars, PA
- MTFCA Number: 32571
- MTFCI Number: 24364
- Board Member Since: 2016
Re: Ball Bearing Fan Hub & New Fan for '19?
Sometimes my excessive play with my T is measured in decibels, too!