MTFCA Forum

I've been helping my friend (as he helped me) with the 1922 Model T he acquired recently. All had been going pretty well until today. The fan that was installed when he bought it was a 26-27 which was a poor fit for a low radiator. He bought the parts to convert it to the correct fan which also required changing the timing cover.

We got it all apart, scraped off the old gasket and gunk and discovered that the threaded hole in the casting where the fan arm attaches had been chipped out and filled with J B Weld or the like. When he tried threading the correct bolt in place and putting a little force on it the J B weld cracked.

Needless to say, the excitement of owning a Model T has taken a serious hit as my friend contemplates what to do next. Can it be repaired? Is the block scrap? We'd love to hear from anyone who has a suggestion as to how to deal with this problem. The arrows on the photo show the area that was filled in. About 2/3 to 3/4 of the original threads remain. Maybe now we know why the previous owner moved the fan mount to the upper elbow......

Now you know why a previous owner installed the later fan setup. Here is my off-the cuff idea, no guarantees.

If there's enough room on the back side for a washer and nut, you could try using the nut instead of the casting thread to hold the fan arm bolt. Once you confirm that the fan arm with the bolt and nut will hold, you could then re-apply the JB weld, then sculpt and paint it to make the casting look whole again.

A big fat maybe....worth a try.
I have used it and drilled and tapped it before.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Q-BOND-ADHES ... lsrc=3p.ds

UCK. I would not consider the block scrap. I might consider staying with the 27 fan mount, even if trimming the fan blades is necessary. Possibly a smaller belt so that the pulley is as far down as possible.
Possibly cut a 1/2" nf nut as a replacement chunk & braze it in, using the nut threads in alignment with casting threads. If you have a really talented welder- mig or tig that chunk in with a bolt in to end up with a usable threaded hole.

I don't see a structural reason to not use it almost as-is

That bolt goes through the unthreaded portion of the timing cover and relies on the block threads to retain it and you say that well more than 50% of the threads remain. That bolt isn't going anywhere and there is no need to whop down on the threads anyway.

Would a reapplication of JB Weld faced back down to provide a surface for Ultra Black be a good idea? Probably, if only to control the sealant cross section and ensure a good and even cure.

If the hole in the cover was a wobbly fit to the shaft, then it would be an EXCELLENT idea to make a custom bushing there to make the shaft a dead slip fit so as to provide plenty of support and ensure that there is no bending moment applied to the damaged casting. So long as the only force the threads see is pure linear tension, you have plenty of threads for the job they must do.

In any event while a surprising find it is nowhere near a disaster.

I have used a product in the past called "Liquid Metal" that comes in a tube and you apply it to a VERY clean surface. It dries hard and can be shaped with a file, sandpaper, etc. It is as hard as metal when dry. I can't remember if I got it at a big box store or NAPA Auto. Still holding for me and I applied it 8 years ago.

Scott, please help me understand, in the first picture the timing cover is off since we can see the gears - isn't the smooth surface we are looking at the front of the block?

Mark

you don't understand me and I don't understand you!

WHOOPS!

complete rewrite of my response!

there is no oil seal issue and the epoxy would be entirely for cosmetic reasons

center the thing on the timer and be done with it. Once snugged up I don't even think there is a moment-arm stress worth worrying about

I have used a early type 1926 motor head mount fan bracket with a low radiator on a 1920 speedster with out any problems. I had to use a later type Model T fan blade not the early 1920's type fan blade. I am sure that a later type 1926-27 fan bracket would also work . It would be the quickest solution to your problem for now. If you had to you could trim the fan blades and rebalance them, the hottest coolant is at the top part of the radiator, so cooling at a stop should be ok with shorter fan blades.

I agree with Scott. Doesn't appear that enough of the block/threads/ear is missing to present a real problem. I'd build up the missing metal with JB once again, file it flush with the surrounding surface and button it up.

As an aside, the generator gear looks very worn. I'd have a good look at that...

Jerry - with the limited angle on the generator gear, what is your clue that it is worn?

Hello Tim: I do not understand the "POOR FIT" for the 1926-27 fan mount. I have those mounts on my 1919 and my 1921 they fit like they are made for them. Maybe just lucky for me!!

POPS

Oldav8tor wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:12 pm

Jerry - with the limited angle on the generator gear, what is your clue that it is worn?

Tim,

The shape of the gear teeth appear to be "off". The teeth look a bit narrow and the shape of one side of the teeth look flatter than the other side, with the flatter, (i.e. more worn side), being the "pressure side", that the timing gear pushes against. Just something to check out.

I just read the first post to this thread.
YES the bolt hole for the fan bolt can be repaired! I have a 1919 Roadster that had the same location as yours broken off. Only mine was more than yours and a little more than half way.
I used a nickel welding rod and welded up the area a little at a time and built up the area till it was welded in a rounded profile. I then shaped it with a small hand grinder.
I then bolted the timing gear cover back on to get the center for the fan bolt. I center punched the center, drilled and tapped the new hole and all was well. That was almost 25 years ago and all is well.
DONT throw away the block! It can be repaired.

Your block has enough metal where you can use JB Weld to build it up enough to be able to use a washer and nut and would be OK by the looks of it. I would use a washer on the the back and use JB Weld to hold it on first. Then after it dries fill up the rest and carefully drill with cover bolted in place to get it centered. and then tap it. Install the cover, and use a nut to help hold it on. You should be OK.

Thanks all.

Jerry, I'll take a close look at the gear this weekend when I visit Gene.
Pops, the "poor fit" comment refers to the observation that the fan appeared to me closer to the top of the low radiator than the fan normally fitted to a 1922. In addition, the angle of the upper elbow compared to the fitting on the radiator tank aren't quite aligned, putting a little bending stress on the hose. Are either of these observations significant? I don't know.
All, I definitely think a nut or threaded piece of steel needs to be fitted to the back side of the flange and secured in place. I think we can pull it off and will report back when it's done. Thanks!

Oldav8tor wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:10 pm

Thanks all.

Jerry, I'll take a close look at the gear this weekend when I visit Gene.

Tim,

Was hoping to see you & Joan in New Philadelphia, Ohio...

Jerry - Yeah, I wish we were able to go but I committed to give Model T rides at the big airshow in Oshkosh, WI, the week following and could not arrange to be away that long (dog sitters.) I'm going to try to make next year's tour as I've never been on a national.

Tim you lucky son of a gun. Driving a model T at one of the best air shows there is.
Craig.

That block is a VERY easy repair for any machinery repair welder worth his salt. Repaired many castings such as that over the last 40+ years. Just need to know what welding rod to use. (NOT epoxys, those just make it harder to do it correctly). Brazing can work too, but requires a LOT more heat. JMHO Dave

Craig - I consider it an honor to share my Model T with visitors to the big airshow at Oshkosh and thank the Dairyland Tin Lizzies for welcoming me to their club. They are a great bunch of T people and in fact, are sponsoring the MTFCA National tour in 2022. They've been doing tours at Oshkosh under the auspices of the Ford Motor Company for a number of years...in fact, I rode with them a few times before I bought my T. They operate from 10-12 and 1-3 (weekdays) from the North side of the Ford exhibit on the main plaza of the show. If any of you are going to Oshkosh be sure to stop by. BTW, this will be my 45th consecutive Oshkosh.....for an aviation buff, it's a place you can see things that you'll see nowhere else.

Tim Juhl, send pictures from the air show of this years T’s. Are you going to be there Thursday afternoon? I plan to stop by the Ford exhibit and would love to meet you. Joe Reid.

Here is how I did a sort like repair on the cover.
I used a heli coil and J&B weld.

Good luck
Andre
Belgium