Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

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Model T Ron
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Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Model T Ron » Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:13 pm

Hey Everyone
I have seatbelts in my 1929 A but am not sure if I should put them in my 1915 Touring car. What are your thoughts on seatbelts in a T?

Thanks
Ron


Burger in Spokane
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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Burger in Spokane » Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:33 pm

When I was an EMT, I went out on a call where 2 women and 5 kids were balled
up in what had been a Chevette, after they pulled out on the highway in front of
a semi. It was Donesville for everyone in the car, but what was really amazing was
the following outcry by the news and other stupid people about wearing seatbelts.
This would be like suggesting that wearing a hardhat will save you as you step in
front of a speeding train.

Some situations just do not compute for certain safety practices, and I am kinda
thinking that seatbelts (tied to WHAT ?) in a Model T is a waste of time and an exercise
in pointlessness. Better to invest one's time in thinking about how to avoid a crash
in the first place and how to take evasive measures, should someone else bring the
problem TO you. Once impact has occurred, the odds are against us for any sort of
"good" outcome. With some things, you just accept the risk that comes with the fun
and take appropriate precautions.

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More people are doing it today than ever before !

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Henry K. Lee
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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:40 pm

I could not agree more with Burger. A touring car has zero rollover protection or energy absorption in its design. Best to be thrown clear than to be retained.

Hank


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Art M » Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:48 pm

I installed GM seat belts in the rear of my 23 touring 38 years ago when our second child was born. Prior to this time, the older child sat between my wife and me. They are now tucked under the bottom cushion.
Generally, safety enhancements seemed to be acceptable by the model t community on cars used for touring.
Art Mirtes


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Les Schubert » Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:54 pm

I put the time and effort into better brakes on my T’s. I have front brakes on 2 of them now and am planning to install them on the rest of the collection. On two they are replicas of era accessory ones!

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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:56 pm

I have them in the rear seat of our '14 Touring to strap the "state law required" child restraint seat for my 6 y.o. granddaughter - if it wasn't a "required" law, she be sitting up front with me & NaNa !
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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Art M » Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:58 pm

The belts not the children are tucked under the seat. The belts are anchored well enough to keep the children from climbing out, but would most likely breakaway on an impact.
Today, I only give children rides in a yard or a parking lot, but not on the public roads.
Art Mirtes


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Norman Kling » Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:43 pm

IMHO, I think the belts would be safer bolted to the body than to the frame. Many T accidents separate the body from the frame and a belt anchored to the frame could cut you in half. I also agree with some that it would be better to be thrown from a T in a rollover than to be strapped in. And if you could duck down in front of the seat, it might be safer than to be sitting up.
I remember 2 teens were driving a Model A roadster which was in a crash. I saw it just after the accident, but didn't see it happen. The sheriff deputys came down and saw it, the two boys came back and looked as onlookers would. It seems they were thrown out and they said they went to get a cup of coffee before they came back!
Norm


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by John Heaman » Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:11 pm

Mr. Haney from Green Acres used rope. That may be adaptable to a Model T!?!

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I’m reading a book about anti-gravity. I just can’t put it down. :lol:


Topic author
Model T Ron
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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Model T Ron » Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:22 pm

Norman Kling wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:43 pm
IMHO, I think the belts would be safer bolted to the body than to the frame. Many T accidents separate the body from the frame and a belt anchored to the frame could cut you in half. I also agree with some that it would be better to be thrown from a T in a rollover than to be strapped in. And if you could duck down in front of the seat, it might be safer than to be sitting up.
I remember 2 teens were driving a Model A roadster which was in a crash. I saw it just after the accident, but didn't see it happen. The sheriff deputys came down and saw it, the two boys came back and looked as onlookers would. It seems they were thrown out and they said they went to get a cup of coffee before they came back!
Norm
Like I said I have seatbelts in my 29 A but I feel they offer at least a little bit of safety as the A has more steel around it than a T. Just wanted to get opinions about seatbelts in Model T's as I am of the opinion that they off little to no protection and should the body separate from the frame you are better off without them. I am still new to my 1915 Touring but I do have rear disk brakes and the car does seem to stop well.....can someone give more comments on front brakes as I did not even know they had them available?


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:27 pm

I'd be leery of adding belts. Model Ts, especially the older, open cars, do not have the cabin area structural integrity of later model vehicles, even such cars as the Model A. Do get rid of plate glass, if you haven't already, and do make every reasonable effort to have steering, springs, brakes, wheels, tires, alxle bearings, u-joint, door latches, etc. in good working order. If you do add belts, for whatever reason, give plenty of thought to how the installation is made. You might inadvertently create a potentially greater hazard than lack of restraints. Cars driven in traffic ought to have improved lighting, even if it is of the clip-on variety.
Last edited by TXGOAT2 on Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:33 pm

One thing to consider about front brakes on a T is that the front axle and suspension parts were not designed to deal with the heavy stresses that front brakes can develop. Neither were the wheels. Front brakes can develop much greater braking force than rear wheel brakes can, and front brakes that are not equal in braking power left and right could be a real problem with a Model T steering system. A grabbing front brake could easily lead to loss of control.


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Harry Lillo » Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:41 pm

Hopefully none of us will ever be in a situation where we need to rely on the top bows and windshield frame to keep a touring car from crushing us.
Unfortunately I was first on the scene on two different tours where touring cars with the tops up had rolled completely over and I found the cars with wheels side up.
I have to respectfully disagree with the experts here that the top and windhield frames will not support the car.
The first was a1913 Overland. The driver was thrown clear and bruised. His wife (the passenger) remained in the car and had significant bruises her hip but the roof held the car up and off her. I was able to slide her out from under the car after determining there were no back injuries. I was afraid the car's weight would crush the top but it did not.
The second was a 1914 Model T touring. They had two young children in seat belts and car seats.
No injuries to either child. Again the top held the car up so no one was significantly hurt. The mother recieved cuts on her forehead from a plate glass windshield. Others were shaken up but no injuries.
In both cases I was amazed at the strength of the top system.
Harry Lillo

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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:42 pm

Here are a few old discussions about seat belts
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1227743374
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/82 ... 1525963371
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/25 ... 1357017596
Couple of photos related to Newton's first low of motion"
"An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force." Like a windshield
Now some will argue getting thrown out of the car into a traffic lane is better than getting pinned under the car. The compromise is to wear a helmet.
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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:55 pm

I haven't researched this, but I expect most Model T collisions are not rollovers. Are people killed or seriously injured in non-rollover wrecks? If I had a dollar for every news item that included the words "died when he was ejected from the vehicle" I'd be sitting on a pretty good pile of money. You could add the words splattered on the concrete like a bug on a windshield to drive home the point. No doubt there are situations where belts are a detriment, but I think the odds are pretty strongly in the other direction.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by DHort » Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:09 am

I rarely drive with my top up, so I do not think that would help. If I am in my Speedster, I would rather be thrown. Ask Mark Osterman what it is like to have a car on top of you and gas leaking on you. The T is just not made for seat belts. Even at the hill climbs where seat belts and helmets are required it does not say the belt has to be buckled and some helmets are made of leather.


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Model T Ron » Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:58 am

I read some of the associated trends posted above and to be honest I now have no idea is seatbelts are good or bad in a Model T. I think being thrown from a car is always a bad idea so seatbelts would be good. I have a 1915 touring and I agree you ride on the car and not in it so if the car flips you are better off without belts. In my 29 Model A lap belts were an easy decision for me but not so much for my 1915 Touring.


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by bdtutton » Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:17 am

I talked to friend who is a policemen and he said very few accidents are rollovers. The most dangerous thing that can happen to you is to be thrown from the car because you will either crack your head on the pavement or be run over by another car. So...statistically you are better off wearing seat belts in a Model T.


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Burger in Spokane » Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:51 am

I would expect most Model T's would more or less "dissolve" in any
serious impact crash, leaving the passengers pretty much in a "thrown"
situation anyway. Except with belts, they are tied to part of that broken
metal mass, now tumbling across the crash site. Belt or no belt, the best
plan is to be hyper vigilent in avoiding ever being in that crash in the
first place.
More people are doing it today than ever before !


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Allan » Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:39 am

My tourer has child seat restraints fitted to the rear seat. This is to satisfy the road traffic authorities requirements. It also guards against them climbing all over the place and risking falling out. They are conditioned to the seats in modern cars and find their use in a T as matter-of-fact. As the engineer who checked the fitment commented, "If they are to be injured in a prang because of the restraints, you are already in a heap of trouble."

Allan from down under.


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:23 am

Few people realize that there was an important accessory suit that came with Model T’s from the factory, designed to keep the driver safe. Here is a very rare photo of the accessory suit for those that are lucky enough to find one at a swapmeet.
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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Tim Rogers » Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:45 am

Seatbelts, turn signals, LED lights and etc. will not make you any safer in a model T. If you're afraid to drive one you probably shouldn't own one...

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<o><o><o><o> Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks - Forum member since 2013 <o><o><o><o>

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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:09 am

I'm with Art M. Years back on the Forum there were a series (3-4 ?) of single car accidents listed. This was the first time I heard the statement "Better off being thrown out of the car". I really hit home for me. I stopped giving rides to children and will only take adults for drives in the development I live in. No traffic. Don't care if your car is as rebuilt as Dean Yoders (and almost all aren't) The thing is just too damn unsafe to chance my Grand kids in it.
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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by TWrenn » Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:15 am

Didn't take the time to read all the posts but I agree with Burger. And lately it seems we are getting more and more people bringing the possible accident TO me (us) on the road. Just last week on our picnic tour with 5 of us in tow, we had THREE cars pass us one by one after each other in a dangerous double-yellow-line zone with multiple hills! Insane. We leave plenty of space between each other for "cut in" but no, they had the pedal to the metal with their 4 bangers roaring to beat us all at once. Just lucky no one was coming the opposite way. Some day it's gonna happen.


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:20 am

Lights signal driver intent and add visibility. They do add a substantial measure of safety, day and night. Believe it or not, a few modern day drivers do look where they're going and do pay attention to traffic around them. Don't leave them guessing what you're up to, especially if you're the slowest vehicle on the road and you have limited resources for avoiding a crash and injuries in a crash.


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by John Codman » Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:17 am

I use seatbelts faithfully in my modern cars, but I totally agree with Burger when it comes to my T.

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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Henry K. Lee » Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:23 am

I will respectfully disagree with a modern policemen's statement of low number rollovers (true in modern vehicles. but not pre 1930 vehicles). Here is why.., the evolution of the automobile was a development from a horse drawn buggy to what is seen today. The model T was only a slight improvement of the buggy, that being said, a very high center of gravity on two axis's (trinity suspension). This in turn makes it top heavy and prone to rollover with the added fact of a high travel suspension and a flexible frame (look at last years rollover on the Montana 500). Most people did not die of direct impact in the era or internal body injuries as speeds were much lower, they died from bleeding to death due to pane glass not safety glass. Rick Rice and I had a direct impact at about 32 mph, no seatbelts too. The steering wheel being at its angle actually prevents chest injury but will break your teeth, I used my foot to the firewall and braced my hands against the dash with a slight break in my elbows. If a side impact occurs in a tin over wood constructed vehicle, the outcome either way with or without a seat belt is not going to be good. Just stating what has been learned in the development of the automobile.

Hank


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:09 am

"All-steel" bodies have some energy absorbing ability due to the nature of steel, which absorbs energy as it bends. Once bent, it stays bent, more or less. Hardwood will bend some, then snap. If it doesn't snap, it will rebound with great force, like a bow. The fenders on a T can absorb energy in a low speed crash as they crumple. As for being "thrown clear", that's a deadly business. Ask the folks who pick up after motorcycle accidents. If you can find a copy of "Youth At The Wheel", a driver education textbook from about 1934, buy it and read it. Deadly hazards (among many) in a Model T crash are plate glass and the steering column, pedals, and levers. The doors are very apt to spring open, too. That's true of most any car built before about 1954. Even in a minor crash or ditch-dive, the steering wheel on a Model T is apt to spin with violent force.

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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by paddy1998 » Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:18 am

Driving a Model T on modern roads in traffic is a safety compromise; which is to say, not safe.

There are things you can install to reduce the risk, like well functioning wheel brakes, turn signals and brake lights to effectively communicate your intentions, etc.

I don't know about seatbelts in a T. All I know is that I'm so vulnerable in my Touring that I drive it with EXACTLY the same mindset and practices as I ride a motorcycle.

And my motorcycle doesn't have seatbelts either.

Life is a safety risk.


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:19 am

A Model T rolling along at a sedate 30 miles per hour is traveling 44 feet every second. I wonder if Tom McCahill ever tested a Model T for stopping distance, lateral g force, etc?


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:22 am

This about sums it up: (Quote)
"I don't know about seatbelts in a T. All I know is that I'm so vulnerable in my Touring that I drive it with EXACTLY the same mindset and practices as I ride a motorcycle."


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by HandymanJason » Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:02 pm

In 2019 I was in a T accident while letting a friend drive my T down a country road.
We ran into a ditch and crashed head first into a tree.
Very thankful there was no seat belts because we were both "safely" thrown from the vehicle during the collision.
I have no plans to ever have seat belts in any of my T's.
But I also rarely go over 35 miles per hour (car does 44 mph top speed) and almost all my driving is on country roads.


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:14 pm

This is a true story. In 1926 My grandfather and uncle drove T touring along the newly opened route 66 east from Los Angeles. I have met two people they visited during the trip, one in Kansas and the other in upstate New York. They went all the way to Plymouth Rock and then through part of eastern Canada before driving back.
Somewhere along the way they ran off the road and the car was on it's side in a ditch. Many people came along to look. My grandfather said," Help me get the car back on it's wheels on the road". They picked it up and put it back on the road and grandpa thanked them and they got in and completed the trip!
Norm


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by SurfCityGene » Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:53 pm

This topic should also include which oil and antifreeze...

I mostly use the seat belts installed in my Torpedo. I believe MOST accidents involve an impact to the front of the vehicle without a roll over in which case staying inside the vehicle may be better than ejection or injury from impact into the windshield.
Yes, we can post about the accidents of the past but so many are the One of a Kind not the normal and more frequent mundane that are never reported or make the Forum news.

One such recent accident of just last year resulting in the death of the driver THROWN CLEAR and Died of his head injury during a rollover while the passenger in the Roadster remained in the car during the rollover and crawled out with minor bumps and scrapes!

Each driver must decide what risks they are willing to take and be comfortable with the decision they make when driving their antique car. Sort of like motorcycle helmet laws across the country??
1912 Torpedo Roadster


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Model T Ron
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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Model T Ron » Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:59 pm

SurfCityGene wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:53 pm
This topic should also include which oil and antifreeze...

I mostly use the seat belts installed in my Torpedo. I believe MOST accidents involve an impact to the front of the vehicle without a roll over in which case staying inside the vehicle may be better than ejection or injury from impact into the windshield.
Yes, we can post about the accidents of the past but so many are the One of a Kind not the normal and more frequent mundane that are never reported or make the Forum news.

One such recent accident of just last year resulting in the death of the driver THROWN CLEAR and Died of his head injury during a rollover while the passenger in the Roadster remained in the car during the rollover and crawled out with minor bumps and scrapes!

Each driver must decide what risks they are willing to take and be comfortable with the decision they make when driving their antique car. Sort of like motorcycle helmet laws across the country??
I do agree that the decision has to be made by each driver. Still on the fence about seatbelts in the Model T because I feel like I am sitting on top of the car and mine is a 1915 Touring with a high center of gravity. My 29 Model A is also an open car (Phaeton) so you could call it a Touring as well. I feel like I an sitting inside the car and the center of gravity is lower than my Model T, and the Model A does have more steel around you. Putting seatbelts in my Model A was a no brainer but not so much in my Model T.

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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by varmint » Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:54 pm

We put seat belts in our '53 Chevy, anchored to the body.
We put seat belts in our '50 Ford F1 pickup, anchored to the body.
We will be putting seat belts in our '26 Coupe, anchored to the body once the seats are ready.

I was at a stop light with a motorcycle beside me. We looked at each other and he was wearing a helmet. The light turned green and he was gone but never made it to the next light. He passed me, hit the median, was thrown to the ground, bike doing summer salts in the air. When I reached him, his helmet was thirty feet away. I stayed with him until police and EMS showed up. A seat belt would not have saved his life.
Vern (Vieux Carre)

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Oldav8tor
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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Oldav8tor » Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:37 pm

I'm a firm believer in seatbelts.....in modern cars. The design of today's cars along with airbags and seatbelts definitely save lives. As to my model T, I'm not so sure. You only have to look at accident photos from "back in the day" to see that Model T's did not stand up well in a collision. When I was learning to drive in the mid-60's, I was taught that if a front collision was imminent, to throw myself away from the steering wheel as I might otherwise be speared in the chest. This was before collapsing steering columns were standard equipment. I wouldn't want to take a Model T wheel in the chest.

At this point I have no plans to install seatbelts. I do have rear disc brakes - I have flashing magnetic lights that I attach to the back when driving on busier highways - I have good mirrors to let me watch traffic coming up behind me - I also choose when and where I drive. I also maintain my car in good condition and make sure that cotter pins are installed where they're supposed to be. The MTFCA and MTFCI safety checklists are a good guide for seeing if your car is road ready. To drive a Model T is to accept a certain degree of risk....we must do what we can to mitigate that risk and drive within our comfort level.
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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Southfork Creek » Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:36 pm

The trouble with the "I'd rather be thrown clear" theory if in town is curbing. I have had 2 very close friends, in separate motorcycle accidents,found DRT (Dead Right There, a police term) when tossed off their motorcycles not wearing helmets, when they each slid down the road head first and cracked their skulls when the curbs that stopped them.

If in town, surrounded by many passing cars traveling at high rates of speed and concrete structures and paving, frankly I'd prefer to stay in the T if I had my choice. Getting in an accident is bad enough, but then getting run over by a passing car is just adding injury to insult.

But I almost never drive my T on busy city streets: I just tune it up on the side streets and then trailer it to the country. I agree you don't need seat belts in the country. But, driving a T in town there days where I live is in my view tantamount to a death wish these days, as cars on the arterial in town go 50 MPH or faster. And I would not consider driving a motorcycle in town here either as many drivers can't see them.


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:57 pm

"A ship in harbour is safe, but that is not what ships are built for" - Wm. Shedd

I imagine if he'd lived in another time, he'd have said something similar about Model Ts.
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Dan Haynes » Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:20 pm

1914 california roadster.jpg
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1915-model-t-ford-touring-3.jpg (41.61 KiB) Viewed 3063 times
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333549.jpg (30.79 KiB) Viewed 3063 times
"The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it." -George Orwell


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Model T Ron
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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by Model T Ron » Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:12 pm

I realize the Model T is more likely to flip in a crash but in reality what percentage of low speed crashes result in a flipped car? I would think it's well under 10%. If that's the case one would be far better off remaining in the car as opposed to being thrown.

I did like the comment about driving the Model T as if it was a motorcycle but if one does not get thrown I would think the Model T is just tad bit more safe than a bike.


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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by DHort » Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:55 pm

A number of years ago on a tour Ken Meeks car rolled over. She survived, he did not. They probably had their top up because it was about 100 degrees that day.

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Re: Anyone have Seatbelts in your T

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:20 am

Seat Belt laws for cars before 1965 varies by State
If the car is older than 1965, the seat belt law is not valid because cars manufactured before this date often did not have seat belts. If the car has been fitted with belts, then seat belt laws apply even to older vehicles.
Car Insurance Claims Versus Personal Injury Lawsuits
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia ... claim.html
If you're injured in a car accident, and the at-fault driver is insured, you likely have a number of options for getting compensation for your losses stemming from the crash -- including your medical bills, lost income, "pain and suffering" and other "damages."
... a claims adjuster will conduct an investigation to determine:
-how the accident happened (including who was at fault for the crash), and
-the nature and extent of your claimed injuries.
At the end of the investigation, the adjuster will probably deny your claim or offer you a certain amount to settle it. This is the stage at which your failure to wear a seatbelt will likely first come into play. If the settlement offer seems unfairly low (and the adjuster points to your seatbelt law violation as one factor behind the number), you can try to negotiate a better deal yourself, or put your case in the hands of an experienced personal injury attorney who will evaluate the situation and your options, including taking the matter to court via a personal injury lawsuit.

You are likely to suffer a brain injury whether getting thrown or through the windshield of your T or pinned under it wearing a seat belt.
So use your head in making a decision :roll:
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger

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