Frame numbers before 1925?

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Steve Jelf
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Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:43 pm

On the Model T Ford Club of Facebook page:
"Every Ford frame had a number on it too. Usually that corresponded to the engine number, but factory replacement-wide track-trucks sold for municipal use had xr and d prefixes."

And:
"...every single one of my T’s have frame numbers including the ‘12 wide track and the cut away engine mounted on a d prefix factory replacement frame."

I have always believed as the Encyclopedia states, that Model T frame numbering began December 12, 1925. Am I mistaken? Anybody here have a numbered frame before the 1926 model year? How about those letter prefixes?
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Dan Hatch
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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by Dan Hatch » Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:56 pm

If it is on Facebook it is the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me zuckerberg.
Forget what BRuce researched for years and years. Facebook knows all!!!!.


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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by Don D » Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:09 pm

When our Model Ts were made there were things called truth and integrity. Because times have changed if we just keep repeating this all of our pre 25 frames will magically have numbers appear on them.

Do the words "Fake News" come to mind.


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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:28 pm

Everything on the internet is true, until it isn't

any numbers found on frames prior to engine 12,861,044 on 12/12/25 of USA production, are put there by non-factory personnel subsequent to manufacture. Facebook expertise notwithstanding. It's a pretty well documented fact, but you knew that already, I know, from your previous posts.

My 1913 in addition to the body number stamp, has a special brass badge on its body indicating a number in the 4xxx range, but that is from the Ford Agent, who numbered EVERY car sold, from Mercer to Ford, to Cadillac, etc. It was basically an inventory number stamped on a badge which sported their name and location of business.

Who knows where the numbers came from as reported on Facebook, but they certainly did NOT come from the factory
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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by speedytinc » Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:31 pm

I believed as you do/did. Never seen earlier frame #'s. those above paragraphs are foreign to me. We'll see the other responses.

example: Harley had motor #'s only until 1970. Some 20's units show up with an upper frame #. Conjecture is dealers would use their factory stamps for police & if requested. Possibly a few states required it also.


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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by sweet23 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:18 pm

And dont forget, 15 million cars, each exactly alike, and everyone of them black.


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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by John kuehn » Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:41 pm

I was about to say that all Model T’s were black but somebody else beat me to it!


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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:39 pm

Speedy

see Dec 12, 1925 detail for accepted documentation of first Factory application of a SN on the frame: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc25.htm
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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by Been Here Before » Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:51 pm

So pre-1925 vehicles have no frame numbers. So what about body numbers?


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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:17 pm

early bodies had numbers marked on wood foot risers, in the wood door structure under the RF door when looking "up" at it, under the front seat in the wood or a stamped metal tag affixed to the seat frame...lots of places depending on year and MFG. They would incorporate a letter to ID the MFG, a serial #, and typically a number to designate the year (and sometimes month)

Later bodies might have a D, or OC or HP prefix (and I'm sure there are others) and a SN following the prefix.

After 1912 (I recall?) the bodies no longer corresponded to engine numbers and were simply a unique identifier (not used by DMV or to be confused with the OEM number for registration purposes). As mentioned above, frames never received an official Factory Number until Dec '25 and then it would match the engine #.
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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:31 pm

One would think that sub-subjects such as this could be put to rest. The FACTS are KNOWN! Even forty years go, many of those facts had been lost in faulty memories, and inaccurate legends. However, serious research in the Benson Archive files, and studies of empirical data have sorted the facts out well enough that there should be no misunderstandings left.
Unfortunately, society has gone deep down a nasty rabbit hole. People today are likely to believe any lie rather than an obvious truth. Honesty and integrity are no longer valued or appreciated, and what some self centered media blowhard says has become GOSPEL! Everything has become a game. Hard work is not appreciated. Putting forth a lie on the internet is a big SCORE! Historic facts are now considered "opinions", and most of those "opinions" are considered wrong.

No society can long survive if it is founded upon lies! (I forget who said that originally? Maybe it was me?)

Nearly all early brass era model Ts had four serial numbers. The engine number was the only 'official' serial number. They also had a 'car' number, stamped on a brass plate, somewhere on the body or firewall. In the beginning, that 'car ' number was often the same as the engine number. However, during assembly pre-moving-assembly-line, sometimes they got mixed up, and the two numbers did not match. As time went on, the two numbers began to quickly diverge, and early in 1915, the 'car' number was dropped and no longer used.
During the brass years, nearly every model T also had a body number. As Scott C says, these were applied by the outsourced body builders before Ford began producing their bodies themselves. These body numbers were used for inventory control and billing between the builders and Ford. Body numbers became more and more unusual as the years went forward, however, some body styles (mostly coupes and sedans) continued to be outsourced and not all, but some, continued to have body numbers. The 1924 coupe I used to have had the body number stamped in the steel front floorboard riser.
Many brass era model Ts also had a serial number on the radiator. Again, early radiators were sourced from several local suppliers, and the numbers used to control inventory, billing, and quality control. Again, they began dropping the serial numbers on the radiators about 1915.

Officially, model Ts did not have a serial number on the frame except for the last year and a half on the 'improved' cars. And all of those the frame and engine numbers matched. At least originally.
However, there were exceptions.
Among other oddities, Califunny (a lot of reasons I call them that!) decided they didn't care what the rest of the world did. They wanted cars to use only frame serial numbers. Now, their reasoning may have been sound, but the desire was unrealistic. Nevertheless, Califunny began in the very early 1920s to encourage and sometimes force car owners to convert their titles to a number stamped on the frame. Law required that if an engine was replaced, the title had to be changed to reflect that change. The fees to convert the title to a frame number, and have the frame stamped with that number, were about half what the fees were to change the number on the title to match the replacement engine! I once saw a Califunny rule book from (1922 I think?) that stated they preferred to use frame numbers and that that was the reason for the fees difference. I believe that somewhere I still have a 1931 handbook that also states the desire to change all cars to a frame number.
Thousands of frames were stamped in Califunny. Usually to either the old or new engine number, just now it is on the frame and was recorded as such. Over the years, I have had several 1910s and 1920s frames with serial numbers on them. Some nicely done. Some rather crude.
So they are out there.

There is a lot more to that story. But this is the short version.

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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by Hudson29 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:45 pm

Wayne - I wonder if Califunny might have relaxed this at some point? I had until a year ago I lived in CA and had a 1951 Chevy 3600 truck. The title had the original engine number on it. Happily, the original block came with the truck when I bought it. I had to pay the local PD to come out and verify the old engine number on the block & verify the number on a riveted tag on the body which we then used as the new VIN. This would have been in the mid 90s.

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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:54 pm

Paul,
If anything, I think Califunny has just gotten worse. Regenerating a title in this state is still usually not too bad, if you know your way around the process and get a good DMV clerk. But they still have a real bee up their bonnet about frame numbers.


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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by Allan » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:51 pm

All my T's have frame numbers. The motor reg dept has a box on their forms which needs filling, so I fill it. One has my birthdate, another my Army regimental number, another my phone number etc. If you don't stamp something on the rail, they will issue an 18 character number, for a fee, and then direct you to a garage to have it stamped on, for another fee.

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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by Mark Gregush » Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:40 pm

The guy that was making the statement that all his have numbers stamped on the frame lives in Texas. Don't completely knock Facebook, there are a lot of guys that post here and there. Once you weed out the BS'ers, you know who know what from shine ol ah!
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:53 pm

If it is on Facebook it is the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me zuckerberg.

The FB Model T groups attract a lot of new owners, some purveyors of rank baloney, and a few real experts*, and I do mean few. I think I could count them on my hands and have a few uncounted fingers left over. Some folks there think I know a lot because I know where to look up some of the answers. The FB groups lean heavily toward photos and videos of members' cars. No matter how bad a mangled rust bucket may be, some will declare it "awesome" and urge that it be left exactly as it is. Many of the folks are unaware of the forum, and I try to direct them here.

*People who know a lot more than I do.
:)
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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by Been Here Before » Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:28 am

Interesting discussion. And to get to this point..."Some folks there think I know a lot because I know where to look up some of the answers. " Some one has to ask some questions, collect some data, and write a few words so some one can look up the answer. So it was when I was trying to set up a data base of body numbers for 1922 coupes. I do thank the few that responded of the possible still extant 1922 Coupes.

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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by Mark Nunn » Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:01 am

The book "Ford Methods and the Ford Shops" was written in 1914 and published in 1915. The authors had full access to the manufacturing processes and were eye witnesses to the process.

On page 88 they describe the "Automobile-Assembly Record", form number 14.

"Every motor has an individual number, as each chassis and body have, but these two numbers are not the same in any one car, and it is needful the factory should have a record of the number of the motor and of the chassis and the body which are assembled together to form one complete automobile."

"Triplicate Form No. 14, printed on thin paper in three colors, is filled by the head of the chassis assembling, one original and two carbon copies being made. It carries the entire specifications of an automobile on a sheet 9-3/4 inches wide by 8-1/4 inches high.
Use of the green original; after the dash assembly is fixed to the chassis, the motor-assembly record envelope (Form 386) is removed from the pedal and fixed to the steering wheel. The green original automobile record is placed in the same envelope. The yellow carbon also is placed in this envelope with the green original. The white carbon is filed by the head automobile assembler as his own record of production."

While they say that chassis numbers existed, they could have been on removeable tags and not stamped into the metal.


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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:04 am

Some companies stamped a number on vehicles and other equipment. The Prairie Oil & Gas Company once ran a fleet of Model Ts. I once had a rear axle that had been stamped "PO&G" followed by a half a dozen or so digits. The stamped letters numbers were very deep and looked better than most factory stampings. I've seen century-old stationary engines stamped with "SPOC" followed by a number. These were once the property of the South Penn Oil Company.


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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:07 am

Re: "Triplicate Form No. 14, printed on thin paper in three colors, is filled by the head of the chassis assembling, one original and two carbon copies being made. It carries the entire specifications of an automobile on a sheet 9-3/4 inches wide by 8-1/4 inches high." /// One of those would be a find indeed.

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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by perry kete » Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:08 pm

Now that the "Triplicate Form No. 14" has been mentioned on this forum I am sure that these rare pieces of paper will now start to appear on "E-bay" at astronomical prices and the seller just happens to have 200 hundred of them available....wait my copier just jammed and I need to keep the three colored paper in order. :roll:
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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by ModelT46 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:31 pm

The brass plaque on the front seat riser (1909-11) or the brass plaque on the firewall (1912-15) had a number stamped on it. The 1909-1912 plqaue numbers matched the engine number. Some of the 1913 Ts were built in another Ford plant and the numbers on the engine and the plaque started with a "B". About 12,000 1913 Ts had the B numbers. This resulted with the other Ts having plaque numbers that were about 12,000 lower than the engine number. This is well known amongst Ford T historians.


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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by Original Smith » Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:15 am

Here we go again!


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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:39 pm

Of course, the genuine forms have "Printed In China" in tiny letters at the bottom right of the third page....


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Re: Frame numbers before 1925?

Post by Been Here Before » Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:33 pm

May I suggest this revised form? It can be printed on white and yellow paper with a carbon in between.

I expect under colour for the exterior, that will depend on the year of manufacture. 1) 1908-1916 the rainbow, 2) 1917-1925 black only, and 3) 1925-1927 the rainbow is back in fashion.


Lineage for (Your car here)
Make and Model:
Chassis Number:
Engine Number:
Body Number:
Specification:
Colour: a. exterior:
b. trim:
c. hood(top):
Date of Build:
Date of Dispatch:
Factory of Origin:
Destination (Dealer):
Other related numbers:
Details of Factory Equipment:
Other Information:
Known Order of Ownership:
Date of this document:

Notes:

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