Aligning front door of Touring 1916

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rainer
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Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:27 am
First Name: Rainer
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* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Lizzy: Model T Touring 1916, brass & black
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Aligning front door of Touring 1916

Post by rainer » Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:16 am

Hello.
I am from Austria (Europe). Hope my English is well enough.
Since Sept 2019 I own a Model T Touring 1916 (brass version, left steering). My Lizzy is in good condition but needs some repair before I can drive. One issue I have to fix belongs to the front door.

The problem in brief:
  1. The door is strongly rubbing above the door lock at the body, this occurs within first 2-3 inches starting at the door corner. You have to use some force to pull the door out for opening. So there is no paint any more, only blank steel.
  2. The door opens by itself when driving across a road bump. The locking mechanism doesn't look worn out, though it doesn't lock reliably while both rear doors do.
  3. Upper border of body and door are well aligned in height, the door also is well aligned with body.
All this is related to the front door while both rear doors are perfect.

It appears to me that the body's opening is a little bit too narrow in very upper region, causing that the door has sufficient gap in lower section but is rubbing in upper section. We talk here of approx 1-2 mm (approx. 1/10 inch) of missing gap only.


One possible cause can be a minor misalignment of wooden firewall and/or the wooden part between front door and firewall.
  • One idea I got is to put shims between steel frame and body to lift it a little bit in the middle section. This will bend the body a little bit on it weak points (= in door openings), so the opening for the front door should increase, while it remains unchanged at bottom.
  • Another idea is to force the firewall a bit to the front. Then it will perhaps reside there.
  • It also came to my mind to bend the upper hinge, but as it completely closes (when door is closed), there will be no change in the door gap. I would have to sink it either in the door or body to increase the gap, but this causes paintwork afterwards. So I dislike this idea.

Need to mention: I will have to take out the entire engine first, I need to replace the entire High Speed Clutch. This will require cutting the wooden firewall a little bit, because it blocks the path of engine mounting brackets needed for pulling the engine to the front. The firewall is currently in direct touch to the steel frame. I could possibly hide a strong steel angle bracket and force firewall and front body this way into correct orientation. It will be invisibly mounted.

Any suggestions on how to fixing this problem are welcome.
Last edited by rainer on Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Model T Touring 1916


Dallas Landers
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Re: Aligning front door of Touring 1916

Post by Dallas Landers » Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:48 am

Welcome ! One thing that comes to mind on doors not fitting is a sagging frame. While you have the engine out, put a string on the frame rails front to back. If the frame is sagging, it can be straightened. Other with more experience may have more ideas. Keep us posted.

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rainer
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Re: Aligning front door of Touring 1916

Post by rainer » Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:00 am

Hello, and thank you very much for your quick answer.

When the engine is removed, I will for sure check if the frame is straight or not. I have a lot of work done under the car and I can only say that I could not notice any damage on frame. Also the frame itself is very flexible as I could see in several youtube videos, where one could easily twist the entire frame for more than 20 degrees. So it appears to me that a sagging frame cannot cause this sticking door by itself, it would have to be so heavily bent that it would be visible to the naked eye.

It appears to be most likely a misalignment of firewall + wooden framework towards the door (where the door hinge is mounted to). The soft cone from engine hood to firewall is not very deep, so I guess it will possibly be a little bit elastic. Well, the body appears to be stable when trying to wiggle at lower right windshield corner, but the hard wood used inside the car body is lots stronger and can have become slightly bent over time, enforcing the misalignment. As I mentioned, we are talking of less than 2 mm of deviation, measured along upper frame border, only.

So I did some further thinking.
I always end up with welding a strong angle bracket and screwing it into the edge between firewall and horizontal wooden bars of body (running along the frame). Alternatively I could use a flat angle bracket and screw it to the side of the related edge (but this is more visible, so I prefer the first idea).

Hope I can force the firewall a little bit to the front and stabilize it afterwards in this orientation afterwards.
Model T Touring 1916


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Re: Aligning front door of Touring 1916

Post by Allan » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:08 am

Rainer, I would first try fitting some washers under the body-to-frame mounting bracket on the front door side of the car. This will lift the body a little, opening up the door gap at the top. If this does not work, you will not have done anything which is not easily reversed.
The frame may not have a visible bend. They tend to sag over the whole length. This is not easily seen with the naked eye, and it is difficult to determine in the car. The washer trick will compensate for some sag.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


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Re: Aligning front door of Touring 1916

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:59 pm

Rainer,
The usual method for removing the engine in brass era model Ts is to unbolt the firewall-to-frame brackets from the frame, remove the steering column, and unbolt the four (two each side) main body bolts. The two rear body bolts can be left in place. This then allows the front of the body to be raised and blocked up about four centimeters, enough for the engine/pan hanging arms to slide under the firewall and brackets.
Your T, being a 1916, might have any of the three different firewall brackets. The early style were cast metal, and bolted to the top of the frame. These were made in a couple variations, and bolted directly onto the top of the frame. They must be removed or lifted in order to remove the engine. The later style firewall brackets bolted on the side of the frame, and usually the firewall was trimmed higher so that the engine pan arms can slide under without lifting the body. Some late 1916s did have this style. There was also an interim bent steel type of firewall bracket used on some 1916s. They were a 'stopgap' temporary item used during the transition from the earlier to the later style. These bent steel brackets were weak and flimsy. They often were replaced on cars when they were nearly new. These also bolted onto the top of the frame, and need to be removed (or lifted) to remove the engine.

I wouldn't recommend trying to force the firewall forward. Doing so would likely mess up the hood fitting and other things. The cowling and front wooden structures would resist trying to force the firewall. However, an extra flat washer or two between the frame and the body mount underneath the door (near the back of the door if I recall correctly?) usually has the desired effect.
If the hood already doesn't fit properly, that could mean it may be necessary to add additional flat washers, possibly between other frame and body brackets. Shimming and levelling the body in that way can work wonders. However, if the frame is sagging? It is much better to straighten it properly. While difficult, it can be done with the body in place. It is much easier to do if the body is removed.

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rainer
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Re: Aligning front door of Touring 1916

Post by rainer » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:32 pm

Thank you for describing the entire process of getting the engine out.
Unbolting the body and lifting it sounds really horrible to me. I had a close look on mounting points right now. Front ones are some centimeters behind motor mounting bolts. Next pair is somewhere below rear doors. As this mounts are below door openings. But it is for sure worth a try.

What I already realized is:
I need to remove the metal cone between motor hood and firewall (if one could tell me its name, please). This part is bolted to the firewall with two huge bolts closely below the windshield, one on every side. I guess it can be simply taken away after removing this two bolts and the wooden strips (where the motor hood is sitting on). Then I will get access to firewall mounting brackets.

What makes me more nervous is:
Lifting the entire body 4 cm to get a free path for motor hanging arms will also lift parts of front fenders and side covers. No? So I also have to unbolt all this parts, and this is not what I really want to do. The rubbing door is possibly caused by an earlier action like this where something was accidentally bent in wrong direction.

My current plan is:
  1. I remove the cone in front of the firewall to get access to the T-shaped firewall brackets. This brackets are bolted down to top of the frame with two bolts, so I will have to remove this brackets completely (unbolt them from firewall and frame) to get the path free.
  2. Instead of lifting the body from frame (this really appears horrible to me) I will cut the firewall tails a little bit to 4 cm above frame and repaint the cutting edges black. This will cause the lowest bolt to become useless (no firewall wood there anymore), but it will simplify my life a lot. Because there are at least two more bolts for the firewall, this will have no effect on stability of body/firewall.
  3. Now I can slide the motor in and out "without" problems after unbolting the steering column and retracting it into the body.
    I have prepared two lifting eyes with 1/2" thread (for the spark-plug holes), but I have no idea where I should set them to get the motor into an appropriate angle first (so pedals can cross below the firewall) and almost horizontal afterwards. Cylinders 1 + 3 or 1 + 4? Any suggestions?
  4. To get tension into the body (to stretch the opening for the front door, it makes now sense to add washers below body screws. After bolting the firewall bracket to the firewall first, the bracket will hang now 1-2 mm above the frame. Bolting it down to the frame in a second step will create the force needed for bending the body.
Hope this will work as expected.

ps:
I didn't mention that I need to take out the motor because I have to replace the High Speed Clutch. I was cheated by the person who sold this Lizzy to me. He did not even mention that the clutch is not working. I opened the gearbox cover and didn't believe what I see... With fully expanded clutch spring I was able to put my finger between clutch finger tip and clutch shift! I was able to do 4 full turns on clutch setting screws (worm screws) to set correct tension. Of course, this pushed the clutch press ring in so much that its bolts were out of the guiding holes ... you can imagine.
So this car was never driving in high gear (as he promised). Sadly I didn't test the high gear because the car was in a parking house and it was raining cats and dogs that day.
So I am forced to repair this before having the first joy with my Lizzy. I hope to find no additional "surprises" after opening the gearbox, like a heavily worn out brake drum. I will insert brand-new steel clutch disks.
Is it possible to get for low budget a good brake drum? (Worst case scenario.)
Last edited by rainer on Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Model T Touring 1916


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Re: Aligning front door of Touring 1916

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:53 pm

unbolting 4 of 6 bolts, and loosening the 2 rear bolts can be done in a matter of minutes and is not a terrible job and this will keep you from sawing up the dash.

It will also get you ready to add the washer or shim that your car needs to stop the door from dragging.

your problem is very common and so easily corrected that doing anything other than the correct thing is almost more work.

The body should of course be shimmed after the motor is replaced as this can have a significant effect on frame sag.

welcome to the World of T's and my congratulations on handling the language issue so very well
Scott Conger

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Re: Aligning front door of Touring 1916

Post by perry kete » Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:07 pm

Rainer,

DON"T BE DISCOURAGED by finding problems and issues as you repair your Model T.
Many of the cars need maintenance before you drive them and it is best that you go over ALL the major safety items BEFORE you take your car out on the road. If you are finding clutch issues you may want to take the time and go through the rear end to make sure that it has been properly rebuilt so you can safely stop.
When you do take your car out on the road treat it like it doesn't have any brakes because it takes a distance to stop this style of car.
1922 Coupe & 1927 Touring

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Topic author
rainer
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Re: Aligning front door of Touring 1916

Post by rainer » Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:50 am

Thank you for your kindly words.

The entire car is in an overall good condition, brakes work perfectly, motor is running smoothly, paintwork is good. So I didn't buy a piece of crap, this is sure. But it is very disappointing that the former owner sold me a car with all technical certs as "No faults existing" and then I find out that High speed gear could never have worked, also not when the car was checked last time... :shock:

So I will have to repair first,that is clear. I only wonder how this could pass technical cert at all...
Model T Touring 1916

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