MTFCA Forum

Problem is there is no high, it will freewheel (neutral). I took it apart and found no glaring problems, a little wear but nothing bad, thrust bearing was fine. Reassembly without the shifter installed and both wheels jacked up I can slide the clutch gear and engage low and high. However, the clutch gear will go past high and allow for neutral. The shifter is sliding the clutch gear past high and into neutral.

Any suggestions?

Which shifter are you using, the short or the long nose one?

Just speculating, but if you have the short one maybe the spring loaded plunger is popping off the end of the shift yoke instead of staying in one of the two notches. Shift the unit into what you think is high, then remove the shifter and inspect it.

Long shifter

Shift into high. Carefully remove shifter to examine where the sliding gear is for engagement. Do the same for low. You should be looking to confirm a bent shifter arm or less likely excessive wear. Make sure shifter looks good - no missing rollers.

By high, you mean direct. Can you post a photo of where the yoke is when it pulls the sliding clutch gear into neutral? It would have to be pulling the teeth on the sliding clutch gear completely out of the gear locking notch plate. Are the shift yoke leaf springs in place?

I fought that issue once. While driving in Direct it would sometimes jump to a neutral. slight pressure towards low would keep it in gear. Took the Ruckstell apart several times, setting up on a bench and trying to figure out what was happening. Solved it by welding a small bead on the end of the P122A to keep it from going too far. This may not have been the proper fix but its worked for several years.

Sounds like the same problem, did you ever figure out what wore and caused the problem?

May be this, check out what a new ones length of the teeth is with Chaffins.

You don’t need to be an expert with the MTFCA Ruckstell book. It describes exactly the test you need to perform to detect for a neutral issue. This includes lining all of the parts up in the Ruckstell housing and shifting so that you can see the engagement of the sliding gear on the carrier assembly.

After rebuilding one, there is really no other proper way to do it other than to take it apart and get eyes on it. I could not believe the wear on my properly shifting, working Ruckstell.

I'm sure MTFCA thanks you for pushing their book just as they thak me for having one. I just don't have it available so I thought I would ask. I like to think of the forum as a place for people to talk and discuss rather than just be directed somewhere else.

Luxford wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:01 am

May be this, check out what a new ones length of the teeth is with Chaffins.

I see very little difference in the teeth as the teeth in question would be those at the top not at the bottom.

babychadwick wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:32 am

I'm sure MTFCA thanks you for pushing their book just as they thak me for having one. I just don't have it available so I thought I would ask. I like to think of the forum as a place for people to talk and discuss rather than just be directed somewhere else.

I’m not pushing anything. I am trying to be helpful and tell you where accurate information exists to help you solve your problem. I thought that was the reason you posted your question.

But if you want to discuss, then discuss and whirl and twirl away. Or maybe you should go back to bed! Sounds like you woke up on the wrong side this morning!

Three things to look for.
1. Length of teeth on sliding spline as shown in the picture posted by Luxford.
2. Sometimes someone will file a groove in the shifter so that it can be set between Ruckstell and High. In that case, by moving the shifter either all the way back for Ruckstell or all the way forward for High should keep it in the intended gear, but do not stop partway or you will find neutral.
3. This one I actually had on a Ruckstell I installed on a car. The shifter fork was not in the groove in the spline when the shifter was installed, so it didn't move the spline.
Anyway, other than filing a groove, the only natural way for it to happen would be number 1 which happens over the years if the engine speed is not synchronized with the axle speed causing it to grind when you shift and wears out the teeth on the spline and also on the internal parts.
Norm

Dan B wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:50 am

babychadwick wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:32 am

I'm sure MTFCA thanks you for pushing their book just as they thak me for having one. I just don't have it available so I thought I would ask. I like to think of the forum as a place for people to talk and discuss rather than just be directed somewhere else.

I’m not pushing anything. I am trying to be helpful and tell you where accurate information exists to help you solve your problem. I thought that was the reason you posted your question.

But if you want to discuss, then discuss and whirl and twirl away. Or maybe you should go back to bed! Sounds like you woke up on the wrong side this morning!

Amen to that Dan!

If there is ANY neutral in a ruckstell something is worn badly or broken. It’s not any more complicated than that. Any advice to fix with welds, filing something , grinding things, my uncle billy bob’s did it, no problem etc etc are foolish and dangerous advice IMHO. We are lucky and blessed to have manuals and parts suppliers available for these. Dan’s advice was perfect.

The issue I had was not a neutral between Direct and Low, the shifter was going into a neutral past Direct. The shift clutch was going to far. My fix as I stated above with the weld was to limit the distance the shifter was moving.

With all respect to you, John. The OP has called on ruckstell experts. Not sure that exists, but if you’ve rebuilt one SUCCESSFULLY , I think it gives one insight what is needed and what is not. I’ve had enough original parts go through my hands and most go right into the trash bin. The flawless original parts are like gold to me. Now , the ruckstell mechanism is such that it can be bandaided back together to still work, but has it been restored successfully?? Knowing the mechanism intimately, I can’t get my mind around how the mech can get in a neutral situation without very serious damage or wear somewhere in the chain of mechanical events. If your shifter was worn that much that it allowed neutral, what else was badly worn. Stan Howe, to his credit, described the shifter problem as lack of lubrication. It’s just common sense, lubricants in a rear axle would have a hard time finding their way up to the shifter. His fix, a good one IMHO was to install a grease fitting to eliminate that problem. This, though, on a correctly restored shifter. I’ve seen shift locks that were so badly worn the only fix is to take the parts out and rebuild correctly , install bushings in the casting or to install new parts to make it right. Even though I know them intimately, I would still need to get the book out again, baby chadwick! I’ve got a good friend rebuilding one right now, and he has his parts all laid out like a major surgery about to happen. That’s the way to do it!
I sound like a broken record, but here again…………. There are already shortages of parts for our lizzies. Hyatt’s, crankshafts,head gaskets, etc. there will be a day and probably not far away that the only solution is to take something apart, rebuild to specs whatever it takes. Or , park them and look at them. We are SO LUCKY to have a source for new ruckstell parts . Don’t take that lightly. Rebuild a rocky mountain trans, or a jumbo planatar, or any of the many accessory transmissions out there. You are on your own, and a labor of love for sure. Surely not cost efficient, but that isn’t always the driving force to our madness.

In high gear, the P146 slider locks the P139 Bronze bearing carrier to the P145 Planet Carrier Plate so that the planetary assembly cannot rotate separately from the ring gear carrier. If you re going into neutral AFTER shifting to high, that has to indicate that the end of the P146 slider is disengaging from the P145 Plate. So a few thoughts- the P122 is pulling the slider too far for some reason (per Johns comments above) OR 1) the splines on the end of the P146 Slider are worn and/or 2) The internal spline teeth on the in the P145 plate are worn or 3) the fiber washer P171A, that controls the internal side play of the planetary assembly has disnetegrated and is allowing the P145 to move over enough to disengage from the end of the P146 Slider teeth. One quick check for #3- how much axle end play do you have- if it seems excessive the P171 washer may be the problem- more so if the other parts have worn. Good luck!

Thank you Dan, I believe it is disengaging P145 as the thrust bearings (fiber washer) were in good shape. A reasoning for calling on "experts" is due to when this ruckstell was originally assembled It was made to have a neutral. An old timer "trick" and one not found in a book. My memory from decades ago is a little foggy and my grandfather has passed so I need to "figure out" what was done and how to "tweak" it back to working status until I have time to do a full rebuild. Simply hearing "go to this link" or "get a book" (which I have but is burried) can be frustrating and as I have seen on previous forums lead to the death of a forum. Often people come to discuss not simply use a database.

For now I will tear the shifter down and do a little welding on p122 to limit movement, Ill weld bronze so its easy to see to remove later.

babychadwick wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:05 pm

Thank you Dan, I believe it is disengaging P145 as the thrust bearings (fiber washer) were in good shape. A reasoning for calling on "experts" is due to when this ruckstell was originally assembled It was made to have a neutral. An old timer "trick" and one not found in a book. My memory from decades ago is a little foggy and my grandfather has passed so I need to "figure out" what was done and how to "tweak" it back to working status until I have time to do a full rebuild. Simply hearing "go to this link" or "get a book" (which I have but is burried) can be frustrating and as I have seen on previous forums lead to the death of a forum. Often people come to discuss not simply use a database.

For now I will tear the shifter down and do a little welding on p122 to limit movement, Ill weld bronze so its easy to see to remove later.

You are going to do what you"re gonna do, but fixing with a weld? It should be clear what the problem/s are with your shifter. Just fix it right. If the casting is worn re-bush or replace. If the C ring tooth is worn away replace it or use a repop wider plunger. P122 arms can be re bent.
I have rebuilt & built(new kits) Over 2 dozen. As stated above, they are a simple mechanism if you understand whats going on. After the build, everyone gets shifted, shifter removed,(both positions) & viewed for correct sleeve position. Trust but verify!

OLD TIMER TRICK = cheap ass, half ass fix that will get you , your baby or someone else KILT They used to put sawdust in the differential to quiet a bad rear end, too. That’s another old timer trick. Sorry, I’m a plain talker. You had your mind made up before you ever posted IMHO

Thank you guys for reminding me why I don't ask questions on the forum.

Most people that know it all don’t ask questions.

Topic is closed

When people are asked and take the time to respond, it’s rude to sluff them off. You are free to take it or leave it. When it gets into a safety issue…..not just a safety issue, but a serious safety issue, it gets my hackles up. We are ambassadors of the old car hobby, even if just on the lower rung.
There is nobody , NOBODY here that would recommend using an auxiliary device that doesn’t work as it’s supposed to, and even worse, blaming it on just being an old timers way of doing things.I’ve never known an old timer like that! For me, this peeve is right up there with pouring epoxy into rotted wood, slathering JB weld on anything broken. Putting a “for sale “ sign on it and brooming it down the road. I don’t know nothin’ about it, mister!
Our autos are only as good as their brakes. Try to get into any T sponsored event by honestly telling them on the checklist that your auto has a free neutral.
I certainly hope that you can decide what advice offered is worth taking, and not just run away when you don’t like what you are hearing.

What is this Facebook? We need to be more respectful of each other.
Craig.

Craig Leach wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:51 pm

What is this Facebook? We need to be more respectful of each other.
Craig.

If we all mute the truth, pretend & lie to each other to spare one's feelings, mistakes, & what ever, whats the point of this forum?
There is a wealth of FREE knowledge & experience here. Dont castrate it. Let it flow. Take it or dont, its free. If you argue with it, expect to be corrected. Helping a guy commit suicide(politely) cant be the answer.

I think John just corrected me. In fact thats real close to what I should have said. But I'm not as graceful when it comes to expressing my displeasure
as he is. Thanks.
Craig

This topic is closed

babychadwick wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:41 pm

This topic is closed

This topic is open!

Look! I can do it too!

Ok if I must get technical the "thread" is open but the topic is closed. In my opinion what the thread has evolved into is off topic and to me thus is "closed"

Amongst the speculation (which is about all anyone can give without eyes on it) there was some good advice given and request for photos and more information. None of which was presented. WE can not help with something that WE can not see. The people that did know about Ruckstells are dead(RIP) or no longer around. Some of us have rebuilt a few, with the help of the book. Could be some that have rebuilt more than a few, have not run into the issues you are having with yours, but there are a couple of post that do that may fit your issue. The neutrals I have seen talked about, are in between shifting into underdrive and direct.

The information needed was received, thus the lack of pictures etc. Those knowledgeable enough were able to assist thru private messages as well as the earlier posts. Instructions for rebuilding, or to order new parts was Never a portion of the topic. If I had desired help in rebuilding a ruckstell I would have specified that in title. Instead it was directed to those who are "experts" in the goal to diagnose and learn.

If I desire to determine whether or not a ruckstell needs to be rebuilt I will ask but I AM capable of doing that myself. In fact I even specified my intention to rebuild it at a later date.

Chad, I had the same problem on a ruckstell when it was on my 1919 coupe. I put a standard axle in that car and then used the ruckstell in a speedster I built. I replaced the long shifter with a short one and have had no problem. I wonder if there is a problem with the long one. An experienced fellow in our T club talked about putting a washer in the long version to limit the throw and has had success. I disassembled my ruckstell multiple times, replaced bushings, etc, found no wear, and as soon as I went to the short version I have had no issue. Best of luck. Joe Reid

babychadwick wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:54 am

Problem is there is no high, it will freewheel (neutral). I took it apart and found no glaring problems, a little wear but nothing bad, thrust bearing was fine. Reassembly without the shifter installed and both wheels jacked up I can slide the clutch gear and engage low and high. However, the clutch gear will go past high and allow for neutral. The shifter is sliding the clutch gear past high and into neutral.

Any suggestions?

From the OP, "took it apart and found no glaring problems" Guts are fine is what I read, in spec. Now I am getting it was not torn down. You throw misleading and incomplete information, you get worthless advise. In light of this new information, I gotta think its internal & your neutral situation is way more serious, needing immediate attention, not a shifter patch.

The problem, maybe, for some of us, me included, we did not pickup on the fact he was sliding the clutch gear back and forth "WITHOUT" the shifter in place, and was not trying with it installed. With the teeth all lined up, the clutch gear can be slid all the way out, the yoke and notches are what hold it in place.
Could be, we assumed he had tried it with the shifter installed and was getting the same results?
But you know what they say about assuming!
Maybe if the shifter had been installed (suggested in a round about way and directly by several people) he would have found no issues, and this whole matter could have been laid to rest early on. (or if it was, did not come out and say it)
Glad it was sorted out, but in my OP, I think he came with a chip on his shoulder and then copped an attitude towards people trying to help, because right or wrong, that is what they were trying to do.
Wishing you happy trails
Mark

Mark Gregush wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:15 pm

The problem, maybe, for some of us, me included, we did not pickup on the fact he was sliding the clutch gear back and forth "WITHOUT" the shifter in place, and was not trying with it installed. With the teeth all lined up, the clutch gear can be slid all the way out, the yoke and notches are what hold it in place.
Could be, we assumed he had tried it with the shifter installed and was getting the same results?
But you know what they say about assuming!
Maybe if the shifter had been installed (suggested in a round about way and directly by several people) he would have found no issues, and this whole matter could have been laid to rest early on. (or if it was, did not come out and say it)
Glad it was sorted out, but in my OP, I think he came with a chip on his shoulder and then copped an attitude towards people trying to help, because right or wrong, that is what they were trying to do.
Wishing you happy trails
Mark

4th post, I suggested shifting into position & removing to see where the lock sleeve was. That was based on the OP where I interpreted the innards had been checked as stated. Shifter position is the only possibility. Late in the game, we find, its not been actually checked to the extent necessary internally. Some one early on suggested the fiber washer was gone. I dismissed this in my mind from what I thought was said to be ok. In retrospect, that is a good guess. With my familiarity with rux builds, If it aint the shifter, There are serious issues & stuff is way out of spec. Guessing that the fiber washer is gone & chewed the castle base needing re-machining & a much thicker fiber washer to stop the internal sliding of the differential as a pinpointed answer is not important. It has to come apart. Until it is apart, one cant blindly determine the exact few or many parts to rework or replace.

I would take the shifter out of the rear end and shift it with a screwdriver or something similar. You may find the problem. The fork on the shifter may have come loose and not shifting it far enough. You may find something not so easy . Good luck!

by babychadwick » Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:32 am
"I'm sure MTFCA thanks you for pushing their book just as they thak me for having one. I just don't have it available so I thought I would ask. I like to think of the forum as a place for people to talk and discuss rather than just be directed somewhere else."

As mentioned earlier the topic is closed.

In regards to the problem it was sourced, repaired and is not back in perfect working order. No new parts were needed, no book was needed just a few pointers from a couple members.

Okay “Baby” Chadwick. The problem has apparently been solved so the topic is closed. Now, you can take your thin skin, your sensitivity and your keyboard and go home. We expect for you to hold to your conviction not to ask for anymore help on the forum since you are so disappointed in us and seem to enjoy insulting those who took the time to try and help you, but you are obviously the expert. Just as you don’t need us, we don’t need you and your disruptive and rude behavior. Good bye.

jiminbartow wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:36 pm

Okay “Baby” Chadwick. The problem has apparently been solved so the topic is closed. Now, you can take your thin skin, your sensitivity and your keyboard and go home. We expect for you to hold to your conviction not to ask for anymore help on the forum since you are so disappointed in us and seem to enjoy insulting those who took the time to try and help you, but you are obviously the expert. Just as you don’t need us, we don’t need you and your disruptive and rude behavior. Good bye.

Well said.

For heaven's sake, just give it a rest.

No more of this Ruxtel chitterchatter! MESSERSCHMIT!

ROFLMAOAY, Yes I am laughing at you. After all you must be the experts since that was who the topic was directed to.