MTFCA Forum

Hello.

Today I started with disassembling my 1916 Touring. I need to pull the engine to rework the high speed clutch.

I tried to open the 2+ inch nut from exhaust manifold, but I had no success. I applied a lot of force using a 60cm long pipe wrench, but I am scared to break something (either this thin clamps for holding the manifolds to the engine - or the manifold itself).

Any idea how I can loosen this nut? It has no excessive rust, but of course, it is slightly rusty. I soaked its thread now in WD-40, but I don't think this will change anything.

Without opening this nut I could only remove the holding clamps and take out the entire exhaust system in one piece. But reassembly will be a nightmare then, so I still need to get this nut open then..

Please, help.

Very fine/odd type threads on the manifold and are quite easy to cross thread and force on. Soaking apparently didn't work so perhaps a propane torch to heat it up and expand it a bit? If worse comes to worse you can cut a slit or two in the flats and release it that way. Ruins it of course but if it's cross threaded you'll need a new one any way.

I’ve found they’re much easier to loosen when hot. Either run the engine for a few minutes, or hit it with a propane torch. Same is true when you go to tighten it. Snug it up, run the engine and then finish tightening when it’s hot.

That's a pretty thick nut, frankly I'd use MAPP gas, you'll get quicker, hotter heat than LP. Seems the LP in these cannisters these days is not as hot as "back when". Maybe it's my imagination, but it sure seems that way. Keep spritzing it with PB Blaster for a day first also. 60cm is only around 24" in our measurements, frankly I'd be using about a 4 foot (122cm) "cheater pipe", I doubt you'll break anything if you're careful. Worst thing you cold break would be the exhaust manifold, then you can get it apart on the ground! Who knows, maybe your manifold is warped also, like 80% of them are! Good luck!

Thanks for your suggestions.

Meanwhile I found out that I can easily get out the entire exhaust system. The long pipe is only pushed into the silencer some inches. I took off the entire silencer, then I pulled the long pipe + manifold out to the front of the car.

I will try to install it in reverse order when the engine is back in. When the manifold still fits well, I saved a lot of work. Otherwise I will have to somehow heat the nut on the floor to get it loose.

Congratulations ! You’ve chosen the correct technique for this dismantling phase. If you used greater leverage you’d probably break the cast iron manifold. I’ve ruined two until I learned. But you’ll still need to apply heat somehow to remove that bronze pack nut. Consider how difficult it would be to stab the “silencer” with the exhaust pipe while aligning the 4 ports of the exhaust manifold. And you’ll want to high speed wire brush the manifold threads with the nut off.... Good job !!

A pipe wrench is not a good choice for this task b/c the more torque you apply , the tighter ther jaws grip, compounding the friction issues between nut and manifold that you are trying to overcome. jb

Heat is your friend, and so is a hammer. If heat will not break it loose, use the ball end of hammer on the flats of the nut to help break the rust. Not only will it break the rust, it will also slightly expand the nut, making it more likely to come off.

Allan from down under.

A pipe wrench is not a good choice for this task...

That's right, for the reasons stated. There is a wrench made specifically for this. I was lucky enough to buy an old one for $2 at a swap meet. Unfortunately, new ones cost a lot more.

For sure it is always best to use the right tool.

Sadly I am in Austria and therefore far away from any shop. Shops selling Model T parts and tools are very thin in Europe, the closest one is in Germany and also having only a small stock compared to Lang's and Co. It would be for sure lots easier when I would be in USA. No high shipping costs and lots faster shipments, too.

Also, I have my Lizzy now since always 1 year and I drove only twice a short test drive, always finding new surprises (now and hopefully the last issue) now it is the High Speed Clutch. The seller definitely knew that but didn't mention it. So I want to get this solved asap to enjoy first travels this year.

Anyway, I knew that things would need repair, but at the moment it is really exhausting. But I don't want to cry...

Thanks for your helpful hints, I am so happy to have found this forum. And thank you for all your kindness.

jab35 wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:34 am

A pipe wrench is not a good choice for this task b/c the more torque you apply , the tighter ther jaws grip, compounding the friction issues between nut and manifold that you are trying to overcome. jb

I agree on the wrench. You need to beg, borrow, or steal the correct open-end wrench. It has been my experience over many years that Propane doesn't help much in freeing frozen nuts and bolts. MAPP gas is a bit better, but if you are serious about loosening the nut without damage, you need Oxyacetylene.

Allan wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:39 am

Heat is your friend, and so is a hammer. If heat will not break it loose, use the ball end of hammer on the flats of the nut to help break the rust. Not only will it break the rust, it will also slightly expand the nut, making it more likely to come off.

Allan from down under.

//// I did exactly that and had excellent results.

TWrenn wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:28 am

Who knows, maybe your manifold is warped also, like 80% of them are! Good luck!

This I will know when I reassemble the car.

I have seen two very strange gaskets during disassembly, each one is for three holes in the engine and they look like a punched sheet of aluminum.
I will try to use original copper gaskets instead, with this little sheet metal guiding rings inside. Looks better.
If the manifold is warped, I still can use this crazy gaskets instead, they did fit well before, so why shouldn't they do their job again. Of course, new ones.

Before you order the gasket, check for warp. If you need a new manifold you'll save on shipping cost.
or you can try to ix it http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/17 ... 1307053275

The currently used gaskets look like these:
https://www.modeltford.com/item/3063-3.aspx

I had glands inside and this glands don't appear to look damaged. So the manifold cannot be warped very much at all.

I had a close look, my manifold is almost straight, less than 1 mm difference. This should cause no troubles and also explains why the old glands are still round. if it does not perfectly slide on, I will grind a bit from its hole.

Use a back up the best you can and then get a ball peen hammer to tap on the different flats of the nut. Spray WD-40 while you are doing this and it will eventually break the nut loose. BUT if it was cross threaded you may have to pull the manifold to get it off. A last resort would be to use a small cut off grinder and split the nut.

Rainer...those gaskets you showed in the link are junk. IMHO the best ones are the copper rings that also ha e the flat flange built right into them. I believe they are even made in Australia! Not cheap by a year means, but really work well. I ha e them on all my cars and my engine rebuilder also uses them and cusses the one you showed. Just sayin!

I don't see the gaskets i mentioned above in Langs catalogue but Snyders shows them...# T-3063-CR...$27.50 per set.

Gasket choices in no particular order

Rainer, the copper ones Tim mentioned are made in Australia. They are an excellent product, and can be used more than once. Check out this site, Info @ftrs.com.au If you buy from them, you will save heaps on postage and the mark up in prices others need to add.

Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.

Rainer,

I have 2 Model T's and on both cars had an occurrence where the exhaust pipe came off the manifold. On both cars the nut loosened up. I tried plain pipe clamps, and they did not hold.
I bought the wrench, $40. I also bought the exhaust nut clamp, $6. That tab really makes a difference. I have not had any problems since. I also keep the wrench in one of my cars. Maybe another driver will need it someday.

Thank you so much for all this details.

I currently have bought the gasket set of 6 copper rings + 6 gland rings as I knew that I will have to remove the manifolds. Such ones as shown in the last picture. I will try them first.

So I will try first to insert back the still assembled exhaust pipe + manifold, it came off without any force, so it should also reinstall without force. If not, I will try to use my propane torch to loosen the nut. Hope it can produce enough heat.

Rainer, best of luck trying to re-install the manifold with the pipe still attached. You will be juggling the manifold, 4 individual gaskets, the exhaust pipe, two manifold clamps and their nuts. Putting it all back in place is nothing like taking it off. At least, have a second pair of hands under the car to take the weight of the exhaust pipe out of the operation, and some form of sealant to hold the gaskets in place. It is a fiddly job, and taking excess components out of the process saves lots of frustration and cursing out of the mix.

Allan from down under.

Anyone who chooses to use one of those clamps, has not had any experience with Model T's!

Mr Smith.

Do you always make nasty cracks at everyone because your a crotchity old man or has no one ever taught you how to be nice and complimentary to people?

46 years in total, driving and being associated with "T"s through my dad, 15+ years since the purchase of my own "T", now 4 "T"s in the stable, lots of miles driven, and *GASP* one car needs the clamp. Someday I hope to have some experience with "T"s, but up to now, obviously I have fallen short. I hear that public confession is good for the soul...is there some sort of penance I should do?

Allan wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:42 pm

Rainer, the copper ones Tim mentioned are made in Australia. They are an excellent product, and can be used more than once. Check out this site, Info @ftrs.com.au If you buy from them, you will save heaps on postage and the mark up in prices others need to add.

Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.

I could not agree more about the solid copper gaskets, absolutely excellent. I bought them years ago (ad in the MTFCA magazine at the time was the only way, I think) and have not any any leaks since. The best part, my grandson collects stamps and I asked that in lieu of printed postage would it be possible to use some Australian stamps instead so he could add them into his collection, they said they would do "their level best" to help. When the package arrived, no stamps on the outside but packaged up nicely along with the gasket sets was a very nice commemorative stamp set from Australia Post. Someone took the time and effort (not to mention money) and went to the Post Office to be nice to someone half a world away. Not just a great product, but also great people.

I suspect that the copper gaskets, besides giving a reliable joint, might also prevent exhaust manifold warping by providing a better path for heat to migrate from the manifold to the water jacket than would a fiber or composite gasket.

Another benefit of the Aussie made copper gaskets is the heavy weigh of the material. They can even be filed a little to make a taper on one side which will make lining up and installation easier, and even compensate for a little warping downwards of the rear and front ports.

Allan from down under.