MTFCA Forum

I was driving a new to the family Model T today and the right front wheel collapsed while making a left turn in a busy intersection . Thankfully no one was hurt and the car was not damaged. The wheels appear to be originals that had been “restored”. This incident could have been much much worse! Make sure you are checking your wheels or better yet have them rewooded by someone that knows what they are doing. I have used Stutzmans Wheel Shop and am extremely pleased with there products. Be safe out there![image][/image]

Judging from how a prior owner restored the wheels, I would advise while your wheels are out for rebuilding that you rebuild the riveted steering gear and maybe the rear end. Glad no one was hurt.

The car was beautifully restored but there definitely will be a major safety inspection!

I would sure like to see a really good analysis of what gave way first and led to the full failure!
Very odd how that felloe split. I have seen broken felloes before, but never anything like that!

Very pleased that you are okay!

Holy crap! Thank goodness no one was hurt.
Goes to show also just how much lateral stress these wheels have on them in a turn. Whenever possible I try to make ad wide of a turn as possible so as not to have to turn sharper and put more stress on the rim. Just my weird way of doing things. Glad ur okay Russ!

Russ,

First of all, I thank God you are OK and the damage was minimal. Could you post a photo showing the inside of the piece of the separated fellow that is on the ground and another of a close up of the dark elongated spot on the bottom of the wood still attached to the rim. I suspect this might be an area of concern to determine part of the cause of the failure.

Thanks for posting the notice for our safety,

Dom

I suggest that you download the MTFCA safety inspection sheet before you drive the car again.

John

your advice is great advice for anyone. I have to smile, though, knowing that Russ has been president of both clubs, built a couple of Stynoski Winners, is the Poo-bah for judging, and very likely had a hand in the creation of the safety check sheet. It never hurts to give things a really good going-over and it sounds like Russ is ready for that!

If it can happen to Russ, it can happen to ANYONE.

This is a car that my dad recently purchased. He has not had a chance to go through and safety Check it yet. I was driving the car back to his house for him after being in storage from an evacuation earlier in this summer. Under normal circumstances the car would not have been on the road without the appropriate checks being made. It did look to me like the fellow failed which seemed very unusual.

Sadly, even the best of a safety check may not reveal what's hiding under several coats of shiny paint. I'm assuming this car has been out in the arrid part of the country for most of its life. Wood can get awful dry, develop fine cracks and lose its strength under the rather flexible paint and then under the stress of turns...well...we know the rest.

Ouch !! Yes ! Check your wheels, but how ?? What for ? Definitely going to be different considerations for wood felloe non-demountables than for steel felloe wheels. Age ? (Who knows for sure ?) provenance of rebuilt wheels ?? Which rebuilders are reliable ? If re-built, how do you know if a sub-standard wood (oak) was used rather than hickory ?

Tim, good point. Wheels built in soggy eastern climes will definitely shrink and become loose "out west" (defined as any place that gets less than 5" of rain annually )

This car had been restored many years ago, and was due to have a thorough re-restoration in the near future. We had a wildfire 16 miles from our home and we decided to move all of my Model T's and Mustangs from our property to a safe location. The car had never been on a tour or a drive since I bought it, so we took a chance when moving the car. I have already removed all of the wheels and will be sending them to Stutzman's Wheel Shop in the next few weeks. I'm just thankful that my son knew what to do in a very scary situation!!

Regarding checking your wheels, here are my thoughts:
1. If you hear ANY clicking from your wheels, DON'T drive the car. Replace the wheels.
2. Move your wheels back and forth to see if anything is moving (this is especially true for wood felloe wheels). If something is loose, replace the wheels.
3. If you see any cracks in the wood spokes or fellow, don't drive the car. Replace the wheels.
4. If you are driving on "original" wood wheels, think twice about driving on them. I suggest you replace the wheels.
5. Find a reputable wheel wright and have your wheels respoked!! I highly recommend Noah Stutzman.
6. If you soak your wheels in water prior to a tour to "tighten" them up, your wheels are loose. Replace the wheels.
7. If your old wheels have "tightening" washers between the felloe and the spoke, replace the wheel.

I want everyone on this forum to learn from this incident. I have personal knowledge of MTFCA and MTFCI members being injured by the failure of a wood wheel. In every case, the wheels were old, original wheels that should have been replaced. I won't drive, or allow anyone in my family to drive a Model T on old wooden wheels again!! Live and Learn!!
I hope this helps,
Russ Furstnow (Russell Furstnow's dad!!)

I forgot to mention one thing.....the total cost to re-wood a set of wheels from Stutzmans' is under $1000. My life and the life of every member of my family is priceless!
Russ Furstnow

That price to properly rebuild wood wheels sounds very reasonable to me. You might think of it as inexpensive, broad-coverage insurance for you and your passengers and your car. Beyond that, the fewer structural failures of old cars in service, the better for everyone who enjoys owning and driving old cars. In addition to the safety issues, ricketty wheels are bound to cause nuisance issues when underway even if they don't collapse outright.

Another check that I do on my 21 touring with demountable wheels is to tap the spokes with your knuckle. A loose spoke will sound differently than a solid one. I do this every time I wash the car even with new wheels. I also look for excessive paint chipping at joints.

The split felloe piece shows staining at the rivet at its mid point, suggesting that a crack has developed from that rivet over some time. Old wood loses its strength over time, just as old bones do! Having dried out and becoming more brittle over time, it is more likely to let go under stress.
A new set of Stutzman wheels at $1000 is exceptional value for safety and peace of mind.

The fellow in New Zealand who makes wooden wheels has a technique in which he bends the felloe sections under compression. The outside radius of the bed is maintained and the inside radius is compressed. Timber benders in other spheres make their bends by stretching the outside diameter while the inside diameter is maintained. I can imaagine the latter process is more stressful on the timber.

Allan from down under.

Allan from down under.

We all have our opinions! I have never used anything other than good solid original wheels, and have NEVER had a problem. I did have to have a wheel made for my '25, only because I wanted the wheel to match the others.
I would not consider any any wheel shop other than Calimers.

Allan wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:44 pm

. . . a technique in which he bends the felloe sections under compression. The outside radius of the bed is maintained and the inside radius is compressed. Timber benders in other spheres make their bends by stretching the outside diameter while the inside diameter Is maintained . . .

Allan, I'm having a hard time visualizing the difference. Could you elaborate on this, please ? Mighty interesting concept !

I respect Larry Smith's opinion as he states he has NEVER had a problem with old, original wheels. Before the incident, I have never had a problem with wheels either, but it only takes one time, and the consequences could have been devastating.

It's getting pretty late in the day for original wheels and very few such wheels have a known history. Wood decays, and it decays at different rates in different environments. Hours in service and severity of service are unknown, in most cases. Many T wheels have seen considerable abuse of various kinds that may not necessarily leave obvious evidence. In the case of painted wheels, issues can be hidden by paint and filler. However, paint and filler will contribute very little to the structural integrity of an automobile wheel.

Rich, most hood bow makers who bend the bows have to carefully select the blanks, paying particular attention the the grain in the timber. The biggest problem is the grain letting go on the outside of the bend as the timber tries to stretch around the outside of the curve. Thees bits can be glued back down and little is lost in this non demanding application.

The NZ wheel builder boils his blanks and they are rapidly transferred to an anchored spring steel band which is fitted with a stop like that on a sash cramp. The stop is engaged and the spring steel band and timber blank are drawn around a former to make the bend. In this application, the outside of the curve is maintained at its original length, and the inside is compressed to the shorter length of the inside of the curve. Thus the integrity of the timber maintained rather than stretched. The inside of the curve is denser, rather than the opposite , where the outside of the curve becomes less dense. It make sense to me, and his reputation for his work is second to none.

Allan from down under.

Now I see ! Thanks for the detail Allan. Much appreciated !!