Balance Beads?

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Hudson29
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Balance Beads?

Post by Hudson29 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:19 pm

Some years ago a Model T pal recommended using the balance beads on the '23 Runabout. That car has had a long history of mechanical mayhem and it ended up getting new everything from the radiator to & including the back axle over a 15 year period. With the constant mechanical work needed I forgot about the balance beads.

I have another project now, the '14 Touring. It runs & drives but needs things as it is an older restoration that has been sitting for some time. The last owner did fit a set on new Riverside tires with new rubber stem tubes to the demountable rims on the Hayes wire wheels. For the most part, this is a great driving car, it runs smoothly and it very comfortable to drive. Its going to be a great tour car once some of the issues are sorted.

There are times however, that when there is a vibration that comes & goes. The steering wheel & column shake. We have pretty smooth roads in this area and the shaking does not seem to be dependant on the road surface. I'm wondering if possibly the 30 x 3 1/2 tires might be way out of balance and get into phases where they combine to make a real shaking.

I'm thinking of using the balance beads bought for the '23 to see if the '14 might be better for them. Has anyone used these beads? Any comments on installation and use?

Paul
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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:00 pm

Assuming all steering and chassis parts are tight, including ALL steering joints, wheel bearings, the steering gears, spring shackles, and spring attachments to the frame, steering shaft bracket, etc, a wobble or shimmy is probably due to out of round or out of balance wheels/tires. Tires can be miss-mounted, or they can flat spot from sitting too long. Wheel assemblies can have a number of issues. I think my car came with balance beads. The steering is tight and it does not wobble or shimmy. It does have wire wheels and balloon tires, which probably helps. A flat spotted tire may recover if it is run a few dozen miles at road speeds, especially in hot weather. Older nylon cord tires used to flat spot overnight.

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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Oldav8tor » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:45 pm

Can’t hurt. I’ve used balance beads in my 30x3.5 tires since the get-go and never experienced what I would call an out of balance tire.
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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Hudson29 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:44 pm

I don't know that everything is perfectly tight but the car steers very well, much better than the Runabout. There is no shimmy. This is a shaking that is felt strongly on the steering wheel. The column shakes and the whole car shakes too. When its in one of its phases, the mirrors are useless. I have run the car several hundred miles since December in drives lasting up to two hours.

At first I was concerned about radial runout being a problem but there are times when it drives pretty smoothly so that doesn't seem likely.

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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:00 pm

If there is any appreciable run out,especially in 2 or more tire/wheels, the disturbances can go in and out of phase with one another and cause the condition to come and go, even at a steady speed. It's not normal, but finding the cause or causes may take some detective work. It's best to assume nothing and check everything, even down to loose motor mounts. The motor mounts play a role in both front and rear axle location and tracking on a Model T.


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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:04 pm

It doesn't take much looseness at the steering shaft bracket down on the frame to cause issues. The steering shaft can be loose in the bracket, the pitman can be loose on the shaft, and the bracket can be loose on its attachment to the frame.

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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Hudson29 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:29 pm

Thanks Pat, those are items I had not considered. I'll have a look around for loose items not connected with the steering directly. I suppose it would probably be a good idea to check radial runout at least as nearly as I can with a big square and hand rotation of the tires.

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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:47 pm

I'd check for radial run out immediatley after a drive of a few miles. I have seen a number of tires on various vehicles that showed a visible flat spot when jacked up after sitting awhile. The most accurate check would be to run the car and warm the tires up, then raise it and check them as quickly as possible. I'd also check the wheels, looking for any kind of bent rim, loose spokes or out of round or lateral run out, or any problems with the hubs or hub adapters. True wire wheels can have any or all of these conditions. While you have the car safely off the ground, look carefully for any evidence of loose or damaged parts anywhere on the running gear. Look at the front frame crossmember for any indication of cracks, welds, or looseness.


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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Kevin Pharis » Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:21 pm

I helped a friend install a set of original Hayes wire wheels on his speedster years ago. They had about 1/2” of run out! Was like watching a Laurel and Hardie car drive down the road. We thought it was the rims at first... but didn’t take long to figure out the spoke adjustment was the real problem.

I’ve heard great things about the balance beads, and have intentions of adding them into my tires someday. The only drawback as I understand to getting the beads into the tube...

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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by AndyClary » Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:27 pm

Several years ago I put a new set of Wards Riverside tires on my 14 runabout. They had a definite balance issue. I installed the beads and even though it was a giant pain in the a$$, it definitely helped. After a few years of wear it was obvious that one tire was lop cocky in the mold. Good tread on one side and bald on the other. The other three tires have worn evenly.

Andy

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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by JohnH » Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:45 pm

My experience with balance beads is that they seem to work better the faster the car is driven. Maybe the wheels on my car are so unbalanced that more beads need to be put in for better low speed performance.


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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:18 pm

I don't think they're effective at very low speeds.


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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by speedytinc » Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:41 pm

First things first. Have someone wiggle the steering wheel. any slop or movement from steering bracket bushings to wheel bearings. FIX EVERYTHING LOOSE FIRST.
Rotate wheels. look for excessive side wobble. 3/16 or less. . Like a cycle wheel . True it. Look for a heavy side. you can use solder on spokes or stick on rim weights.
Finally - no joy? A guy relayed a similar out of balance situation from not centered flaps in that type WW. Removed them. End of problem. Gyroscopic issue.
BUT, DONT SKIP THE STEP ORDER. FIX ALL THE WEAR & axle toe in & camber/caster specs. then look @ the wheels.


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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:50 pm

A Model T with good steering will have virtually no free slack in the steering system. Check with the car sitting still on level ground with the wheels pointed straight ahead. Caster and camber angles need to be correct and close to equal left and right. Toe in needs to be accurately set. Wire wheel hub adapters may not be installed properly.


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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Kevin Pharis » Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:03 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:50 pm
Wire wheel hub adapters may not be installed properly.
While agreeing with all else in your statement, I would like to point out that these are Hayes wire wheels. There are no hub adapters, these wheels directly replace the wood wheels and accept the standard Hayes demountable rims


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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:09 pm

One less thing to consider....

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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Chris Instness » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:16 am

Here is a interesting demonstration on balance beads.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eq263AYgyYg

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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Hudson29 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:49 pm

AndyClary wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:27 pm
Several years ago I put a new set of Wards Riverside tires on my 14 runabout. They had a definite balance issue. I installed the beads and even though it was a giant pain in the a$$, it definitely helped. After a few years of wear it was obvious that one tire was lop cocky in the mold. Good tread on one side and bald on the other. The other three tires have worn evenly.

Andy
What was the issue installing the beads?

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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by AndyClary » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:03 pm

With the rubber stem tubes the beads pretty much have to go in one at a time. I tried all the tips that have been posted but it took a couple hours to do two tires. Metal stems would probably be easier.

My problem was a definite balance issue. The shimmies and death wobble are related to play in steering system.

Andy

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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Hudson29 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:17 pm

I had dismissed the wheels as the car has phases where it runs along very well. This car is an older restoration with nothing known about its history over the last 50 years. I do know it has been driven very little in the last ten years or so.

I do not drive this car very quickly. It likes 25 - 30 mph, and I have never driven it faster than 37 mph by the speedo. The car just doesn't feel happy going very fast. Only twice have I felt any shimmy. Both times while turning a low speed corner and it went away right after the corner. The steering is pretty tight but not perfectly tight. It is certainly tighter than the '23. When going down the road, it is stable and needs very little correction. It really is a pleasure to drive. Only the vibration is worrisome.

I will make a list of the items to check and have a look this weekend to see if I can find any issues. Thank you all for the suggestions. I DO hope the wheels are OK as I am a very long way from a wheel shop.

Another thought occurred to me this morning. The '23 has the same wheels. I could swap them out and see how the '14 drives with the '23 wheels & tires. If the problem goes away, I will know the issue is with the wheels & tires.

Paul
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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Hudson29 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:25 pm

An hour per tube, that's crazy!

Anybody got any suggestions to make this job go faster?

I had in mind taking the demountable rim off the car, deflating the tire & bouncing it on the ground from several different angles to make sure the tire beads are properly seated. I used to do this with motorcycle tires & when I have done Model T tires have done the same thing. These Wards Riverside tires with rubber stemmed tubes were installed by the previous owner & I do not know how the job was done.

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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by speedytinc » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:41 pm

Hudson29 wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:25 pm
An hour per tube, that's crazy!

Anybody got any suggestions to make this job go faster?

I had in mind taking the demountable rim off the car, deflating the tire & bouncing it on the ground from several different angles to make sure the tire beads are properly seated. I used to do this with motorcycle tires & when I have done Model T tires have done the same thing. These Wards Riverside tires with rubber stemmed tubes were installed by the previous owner & I do not know how the job was done.

Paul
Balance beads for these wheels will have a negligible effect over the long list of other possible problems.
Metal stem or rubber, the valve core hole is the same size.

Here's an idea IF you feel you NEED them.
Build a sealable container to hold the beads. Output end to attatch to valve stem. Top of container a hole or tube. Pull valve core. Let tube deflate. Fill container & attach to valve stem. Add some compressed air on top tube/hole a bit @ a time. Should completely transfer beads in less than a minute.


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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:42 pm

I cannot under any circumstances imagine these beads going in in less than a minute. And, at the very least, the valve core needs to be drilled out per instructions. Being identically sized particles with little clearance through the stem, they are unusually adept at plugging up the hole rather than flowing in.

I found that vibration and an extremely slow pour will keep them flowing. I also found that they worked well. I cannot recall if I used the amount supplied per tire, or double the amount supplied per tire for a friend's dirt-track T. In any event, he found the results to be more than adequate. The interesting thing about the physics involved is that if you have more than necessary (and each tire/mass unbalance is different) then the "extra" beads simply float randomly within the tube, with the proper amount to bring the assembly into balance finding the exact spot that they need to be.

Users who say they do not work at low speeds are absolutely correct in their evaluation/opinion, as they require centrifugal force to work. Below somewhere around 25 MPH, they are pretty much useless as the wheel has not had enough opportunity to start oscillating.
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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by AndyClary » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:01 pm

I thought the beads would go in through a metal stem due to its uniformity. The rubber tube is not uniform and reaming is not very effective. Not to stir things up, but if you think they’ll go in in a minute you haven’t dealt with this product.

Andy


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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by R.V.Anderson » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:27 pm

I always put in the beads when installing an original metal stem in what was a rubber stemmed tube. Now THAT takes less than a minute!


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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:28 pm

Touche, RV
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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:41 pm

You could cut a dime -size hole in the tube and install the beads, then patch the hole.


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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Bills Auto Works » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:45 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:18 pm
I don't think they're effective at very low speeds.
Hi Pat,

I cannot comment on how they work in a "T" but I have CounterAct Balance beads in one of my trucks, both my trailers & most of my collector cars! The Dually has Centramatics which is a metal ring with the beads inside. They don't start working until 22 MPH. You stop hearing them at that speed which means they have found their "spot"

God Bless
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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by brendan.hoban » Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:48 am

Balance beads?

Best thing I ever did, my wobbly out of balance wooden wheels now behave perfectly.

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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:51 am

As a rough rule out of balance tires will vibrate at certain speeds and will do so consistently. I’ve personally had moderns do it in the 50/60 MPH range and customers complaining about vibrations in that range too. I suspect they’d have to be really out to react at T speeds but if it’s doing it at roughly the same speed it’s probably tires.
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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by speedytinc » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:40 am

R.V.Anderson wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:27 pm
I always put in the beads when installing an original metal stem in what was a rubber stemmed tube. Now THAT takes less than a minute!
Now, here is a guy thinking ahead. Brilliant!


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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:57 am

The wheel/tire assembly can be out of round, out of balance, out of true (bent) , and in some rare cases, a tire can have a stiff section in the casing that causes a different rolling resistance in one portion of the tire. Any or all of these conditions can exist in any one wheel/tire. An out of round assembly will usually also be out of balance. Out of round tends to cause the wheel to jump up and down at some speeds. Ity may cause wobble or shimmy at some other speed. Out of true (bent, side-to-side wobble) can cause a number of issues. A wheel can be in balance and out of true. A wobble or shaking that is felt in the steering wheel and column is usually related to one or several of the above conditions in one or more wheels. Vibration, as opposed to a shaking or wobble, is usually associated with mechanical problems such as universal joints. When the front wheels shake rapidly from side to side, that's usually called "shimmy" or "death wobble". When a wheel jumps up and down, that's commonly called "tramp". A set of wheels/tires that are out of round, out of balance, out of true, or any combination of these can cause shimmy/wobble/tramp or all the preceding. Wire wheels with loose spokes or missing spokes will cause problems. Loose steering parts will allow a car to shake, shimmy, etc, even with good wheels and tires, and any small issue with wheels/tires will be amplified with loose steering parts. Front wheels are tied together and they are free to turn left and right, so they are more likely to react to wheel/tire issues than the rear wheels. Sometimes a car will perform better if the front wheels are put on the rear axle and the rear ones moved to the front. That won't fix the problem with the wheel/tire, but the more rigid rear axle may prevent it from affecting the car as much.

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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Hudson29 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:25 pm

My powers of observation & explanation may not be up to the task here. I do know there are times when the car shakes, the mirrors are blurred and the steering wheel & column shake quite a bit. Other times, the car seems pretty smooth. I'm not sure about the speeds. I notice it most on main roads where the speeds are over 30 mph. Vibration as opposed to shaking? How would this be felt from the driver's seat?

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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Oldav8tor » Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:59 pm

I'm late to the party but have experience installing beads in both rubber stemmed and brass stemmed tubes. It's easiest when the tube hasn't been installed but at the least they need to be deflated. Jacking the wheel up so you can move it easily will help.

What I do is take a plastic condiment bottle, attach a plastic hose to it with the other end on the valve stem (held on by a small hose clamp.) Tipping and squeezing is enough to fill a brass-stemmed tube in about 10 minutes....with rubber stemmed tubes I've found that holding a vibrating engraving tool against the stem facilitates the movement of the beads. Holding the condiment bottle on it's side and "drizzling" the beads in so they don't plug the opening works best. Again, about 10 minutes per tube to add six ounces of beads.
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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:02 pm

"Vibration" usually describes a condition where something shakes at a rapid frequency and low amplitude. It may originate in the engine or other rapidly revolving parts of the car, and it may show up in other parts of the car, like the steering column. With vibration, the car or car part will move very rapidly, but only move a very short distance. Mirrors will often visibley react to a vibration when nothing else on the car does. Model Ts have considerable normal vibration, which usually shows up at different engine and road speeds. A T may run very smoothly at 30 MPH and exhibit a harsh and annoying vibration at 38 MPH. A person with Model T experience would be able to assess whether your issue is within the normal range or not, and probably give a good idea of what is causing it, and if it is a problem or not. On the other hand, a wobble or shimmy or tramp will be a rather violent shaking that is often speed-related. The steering wheel may rapidly jerk left and right. The car may seem to be darting left and right very rapidly. A wheel/tire might actually bounce up and down on the road as it rolls along . You would not need to look in a mirror to see and feel it. It might feel as if your car suddenly had egg-shaped wheels, or that a giant had grabbed one of the front wheels and was trying to jerk it off the car, or it might feel as if you'd just hit a bad patch of washboard road.

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Hudson29
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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Hudson29 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:20 pm

I do not think the vibration is motor speed related. When going through the gears (this car has a Ruckstell) I do not recall feeling it. The motor is actually very sweet running if not very peppy.

I think the best thing now would be to get the car out again with information posted here fresh in my mind and see if I can pick anything up in better detail.

I've been involved with Model Ts for a good many years and have ridden as a passenger in quite a few. I have only driven my own so I have little to compare the experience with.

Paul
The man with a watch always knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

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Hudson29
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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Hudson29 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:25 pm

Oldav8tor wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:59 pm
I'm late to the party but have experience installing beads in both rubber stemmed and brass stemmed tubes. It's easiest when the tube hasn't been installed but at the least they need to be deflated. Jacking the wheel up so you can move it easily will help.

What I do is take a plastic condiment bottle, attach a plastic hose to it with the other end on the valve stem (held on by a small hose clamp.) Tipping and squeezing is enough to fill a brass-stemmed tube in about 10 minutes....with rubber stemmed tubes I've found that holding a vibrating engraving tool against the stem facilitates the movement of the beads. Holding the condiment bottle on it's side and "drizzling" the beads in so they don't plug the opening works best. Again, about 10 minutes per tube to add six ounces of beads.
There is a clear plastic bottle supplied in the kit along with a plastic tube. Are these different from what you are using?

The tubes on this car have the rubber stems. I'll have to see what sort of vibrator I can find around the place, that's a pretty good idea.

Paul
The man with a watch always knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

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Oldav8tor
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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Oldav8tor » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:22 pm

I bought my balance beads in plastic bags....warning, be careful when opening the outer bag as the inner bag may be broken and beads will go everywhere! This is the type of bottle I use (less the ketchup.) Cut the spout as large as you can and still fit the hose over it.
bottle.jpeg
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Hudson29 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:38 pm

I had a poke around the '14 this Saturday to see if I could find some items in the steering system that might need attention. I started with the steering bracket. While it has no movement with respect to the frame, there is quite a bit of slop in the lower bushing. Moving on to the kingpins, the left top is also pretty loose. I could not feel any slop in the bearing. On the right side I found some minor movement but could not see where it was. I laughed when I saw the slop in the drag link on both ends! I did not inspect the tie rod ends, I'll get to them when doing the rest of the steering.

I jacked up the front wheels and spun them to check for wobble & radial runout. There was not too much wobble by Model T standards but the left wheel seemed to have a lot of runout not connected with the flat spot from sitting a week. This will need more careful inspection after the next run.

The work list on this car just got longer. The real question in my mind is why the car steers as well as it does. Will any of this make the car shake? I dunno, but it sure can't help.

The steering bracket needs to be rebushed and I read someplace that it needed machine work. What is involved in getting this done?

Are kingpins something the home mechanic can do with basic tools or is this specialist work?

Paul
The man with a watch always knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by Hudson29 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:40 pm

Tim - the kit has a bottle just like that but no mustard or ketchup. There is also a length of plastic tubing.

Paul
The man with a watch always knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.


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Re: Balance Beads?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:54 pm

Loose kingpin bushings can allow the caster and camber angles to change as the car rolls along. Looseness at the steering bracket can work with the kingpin looseness to cause wobble. Any runout or imbalance at any wheel, but especially either or both front wheels, can work with any looseness anywhere in the system to cause wobble. If one of your front tires shows run out, the car may perform better if you put that tire on the rear, assuming the front and rear tires are the same size. If the tie rod/drag link ends are loose, you can take them loose and shim them temporarily with leather or even cardboard. Shim enough to take up the slack, but don't get the joint in a bind, and grease the joint before re-asssembling it. Then drive slowly on level ground and turn the steering full left and right and be sure it does not bind. That and addressing the run out might get the car to handle better, but it would only be a temporary repair. Correcting all the issues you find will reward you with a much better handling car, and will probably eliminate some knocking and bumping sounds. Ride quality may improve, and tire mileage almost certainly will.

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