Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

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CraigBothwell
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Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by CraigBothwell » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:48 am

I recently had my motor rebuilt and, after driving the car several times have noticed
a troubling 'noise' that occurs when 'revving' the motor. I have run the motor
at full and partial advance (and everything in between.)
I had installed a Prus high compression head and a cam from Stipe.

The Youtube link to the the motor running is:

https//youtu.be/uqJYEx2iCNI

Any ideas as to what is going on and how to fix it would be appreciated.

Thank you
Craig Bothwell
bothwell.craig@gmail.com

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Quickm007
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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Quickm007 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:12 am

Stop IT right now. Very bad noise. Probably babbit issue and not balanced crank shaft. I'm not the specialist but a guy like Joe Bell or Hank will tell you more...
Super Mario Bross ;)

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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Quickm007 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:14 am

Here the link for the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqJYEx2iCNI


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by John Codman » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:17 am

The video would play for me, but with no sound.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Bill Coyle » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:41 am

Short out one plug at a time to see which cylinder it's coming from. Since you don't hear it when it's not under load, it's not an interference problem. Could possibly be a bent connecting rod. Hard to tell from the video, but don't think it's an exhaust leak, but check that also. I wouldn't drive it until you figure it out.
Good luck,
Bill

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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by RichardG » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:56 am

BILL HAS THE RIGHT IDEA, THROTTLE IT UP 1/4 WITH SPARK ADVANCED TO NORMAL DRIVING POSITION AND SHORT EACH PLUG TILL YOU GET THE SOUND, THAT WILL GIVE YOU THE CYLINDER TO LOOK AT WHEN YOU TEAR IT DOWN--GOOD LUCK--


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Philip » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:04 am

could be piston hitting the head


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Norman Kling » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:09 am

Could be piston hitting head. This would be especially likely if you have domed pistons or a very large oversize bore.
It could also be caused by a tight wrist pin which could cock the piston as the crankshaft rotates. Or a bent rod could cause the piston to move back and forth front to back or the rod to move front to back as the crankshaft rotates.
Severely advanced spark could also cause a lot of pressure to push the crankshaft to go backward until it passes top dead center.
Norm


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by 20touring » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:30 am

Sounds like a piston Is hitting the head when it’s at TDC due to too much babbitt clearance on the rod & too close tolerance of the piston to the head.
Question is now is the rod bent because of it?
Pull the head and pull the crankcase pan, should find the problem quick- if I’m right and it’s going on with one cylinder the others aren’t far behind.
Was the piston to head clearance checked before final assembly?


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:40 am

Motor is a fresh rebuild by someone else. I dissembled & fixed what was missed, like slightly bent rods & completed. New time saver bearings. All new. DM bronze gear @ .006. Stipe 280 super (all cyls ckecked to perfect spec)Piston/head clearance checked W/O head gasket. Rods checked .004 piston clearance. Sounded like a loose crank pully? Possible over advancement on timing lever. possibly worse on bat. Set up for mag (15 motor)
Didnt hear any unusual noise before I released it. Had a Montana buddy confirm this. Idont know if the noise is gotten worse. I do know it can be made noisy @ full(over?) advance. I suspect more so on battery. New day timer. I saw 3 videos today & have not gotten feed back to my questions yet.

This more complete picture may have you guys figure it out before I even see it for myself. I will also follow this thread for possible issues missed.
This is more MY problem than his. Its unfortunate that he cant enjoy his T right now.
I just got out of the hospital Tuesday form a 6 day vacation & havent got to see it yet. I hope to be able to lay hands this weekend with my seeing eye dog.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Dan Haynes » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:45 am

Craig, are you asking about the gasping noise when you open the throttle?

Videos make all Model Ts sound like the crankcase is full of rocks, if you're worried about the babbit, drain the oil and look at it. If it's full of glitter you'll know.
"The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it." -George Orwell


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:51 am

Dan Haynes wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:45 am
Craig, are you asking about the gasping noise when you open the throttle?

Videos make all Model Ts sound like the crankcase is full of rocks, if you're worried about the babbit, drain the oil and look at it. If it's full of glitter you'll know.
Hasnt run long enough to pound out the babbit?
Expect to see some gold flecks from the new transmission bushings & iron from break it.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:20 pm

Let me add a bit more to the puzzle.
Craig installed the motor & alt. Ran it with no issue or noise, I believe. I removed the alt(not charging), replaced pulley. Fan position changed W new belt. A bit small for my taste. @ acceleration horrible noise. Fan sucked into radiator wire mount tab, Fixed that? Fan pulley got loose & clangy. Replaced that. Newer pully loosed again?? If so, why? Maybe a new billet unit?


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Adam » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:21 pm

By the way he jerks the throttle open quick and it just makes a couple knocks and he does the same thing over and over leads me to think that is the ONLY WAY the knocking is produced? If so, that’s a little odd.

Videos are notorious for very poor representation of engine noise, but if I was to make a wild guess, I’d say the ends of the fan blade are ticking against something on that sudden acceleration. Maybe a hose clamp? I’d say its more likely to be something external than internal. The most likely internal issue short of some sort of failure may be a rod bolt head striking the cam (or striking an accessory inside oil line if you have one). Or the crankshaft striking the inspection pan rail if it is a SCAT crank.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:57 pm

Adam wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:21 pm
By the way he jerks the throttle open quick and it just makes a couple knocks and he does the same thing over and over leads me to think that is the ONLY WAY the knocking is produced? If so, that’s a little odd.

Videos are notorious for very poor representation of engine noise, but if I was to make a wild guess, I’d say the ends of the fan blade are ticking against something on that sudden acceleration. Maybe a hose clamp? I’d say its more likely to be something external than internal. The most likely internal issue short of some sort of failure may be a rod bolt head striking the cam (or striking an accessory inside oil line if you have one). Or the crankshaft striking the inspection pan rail if it is a SCAT crank.
One thing I thought is it cold for the test? does it change when hot? Straight thru, no heat pipe. lean? Manifold will ice up.
The fan issue may be back?
No scat crank & presumably no noises upon his first running.
If its an internal noise, it could be a rod come loose?? Really doubt it. His noise is from the front, external I think. At least it was claimed to be a fairly consistent noise I couldnt hear or note as unusual. That snap acceleration rattle bothers me.. Possibly cam gear?


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:33 pm

Latest: Fan removed, no change.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by SurfCityGene » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:58 pm

Craig stopped by my house with his T the other day for another set of ears to confirm his noise. My expertise is not diagnostic but I did hear the knocking easily when he advanced the throttle quickly. We went for a ride the car drove and sounded great as we approached maybe 45. Every time during acceleration the knocking was present. It seemed like when he advanced the spark lever it may have been a bit better? We returned to my house and looked for anything unusual. I shorted each cylinder while Craig revved up the engine but the knocking continued. I listened near the cam gears and from front to back to determine which part of the engine it may be coming from but couldn't pinpoint anything. We sort of ran out of time and I wasn't able to get under to check anything else when I discovered a bit of water coming from the center of the radiator fins of his brand new radiator! To be continued.....

We did talk about just driving it some more and checking to see if the noise gets worse. The car did run really nice. Draining the oil may reveal something but as Johnny pointed out a new engine may have some break in debris but a good starting point.
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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:17 pm

SurfCityGene wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:58 pm
Craig stopped by my house with his T the other day for another set of ears to confirm his noise. My expertise is not diagnostic but I did hear the knocking easily when he advanced the throttle quickly. We went for a ride the car drove and sounded great as we approached maybe 45. Every time during acceleration the knocking was present. It seemed like when he advanced the spark lever it may have been a bit better? We returned to my house and looked for anything unusual. I shorted each cylinder while Craig revved up the engine but the knocking continued. I listened near the cam gears and from front to back to determine which part of the engine it may be coming from but couldn't pinpoint anything. We sort of ran out of time and I wasn't able to get under to check anything else when I discovered a bit of water coming from the center of the radiator fins of his brand new radiator! To be continued.....

We did talk about just driving it some more and checking to see if the noise gets worse. The car did run really nice. Draining the oil may reveal something but as Johnny pointed out a new engine may have some break in debris but a good starting point.
Meaning to call you on this. Is it a critical type, throwing a rod noise or a dull thud, tap? Is it a minor noise to watch for worsening? The noise isnt bad enough to park the car??
Its driving me crazy, not being able to get my hands on it immediately. I requested he doesnt run it any more. I know we are sans radiator now. That throws a wrench in the process. We are both eager to solve the problem.
I hope to get mr. G over for a look this weekend. Before he got the car back, G agreed that there were no unusual noises. I hope something aint coming apart.
I noticed full advance could induce some noise & that the car had optimal power @ 1/2 + advance. Thanks for your look @ it.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by SurfCityGene » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:31 pm

Ya, Johnny, I was disappointed the shorting out didn't show up anything.... maybe I missed it though?? I didn't think it was bad enough not to drive it with caution though. but hey, I drove mine for a couple of years or more with a broken crank making a very similar noise!!

Side Note
I'm sure glad your feeling better enough to be posting!! Please take care and we've been praying for you. Playing and thinking Model T's might be good for you. Just don't over do it.
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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:50 pm

SurfCityGene wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:31 pm
Ya, Johnny, I was disappointed the shorting out didn't show up anything.... maybe I missed it though?? I didn't think it was bad enough not to drive it with caution though. but hey, I drove mine for a couple of years or more with a broken crank making a very similar noise!!

Side Note
I'm sure glad your feeling better enough to be posting!! Please take care and we've been praying for you. Playing and thinking Model T's might be good for you. Just don't over do it.
I would not expect shorting plugs on a fresh Babbitt job would show anything unless a rod was coming undone. Couldnt be pounded out already.
I didnt mag the crank. I hope the builder did. There's another question. Crank looked great with lots of radius's. There was plenty of room built in for crank growth. Sounds like a bottom cover removal/inspection will be needed.
Its real perplexing that he had no noise issue when he installed & ran it, untill I got it back for the alt issue & the rux build.
Thanks Gene.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Philip » Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:32 pm

i also think .004 is a little loose on bearings


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:37 pm

Philip wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:32 pm
i also think .004 is a little loose on bearings
.004" is piston clearance.
Rods & mains were fresh time saver @ .0015"


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Norman Kling » Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:26 pm

One of the things mentioned, was a New Day timer. How did you set the timing? A New day is a little different position than the original timer and the timing tool used to measure from bolt to rod position is not correct for New Day. You should find a spot a few degrees after top dead center. The crankcase pin would be approximately 9:20 and 3:50 position when looking from front of crankshaft. Then push the spark lever all the way up and adjust the length of the rod to fit without moving either the spark lever or the distributor. After you get the adjustment made, turn on ignition to battery and very slowly turn the crank and the spark should come just after the piston passes top dead center. This can be done with any cylinder, It does not have to be number 1 to make this last test.
Now start up the engine and see how it runs. It should be best with the spark about 3/4 down.
Norm


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:05 pm

Norman Kling wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:26 pm
One of the things mentioned, was a New Day timer. How did you set the timing? A New day is a little different position than the original timer and the timing tool used to measure from bolt to rod position is not correct for New Day. You should find a spot a few degrees after top dead center. The crankcase pin would be approximately 9:20 and 3:50 position when looking from front of crankshaft. Then push the spark lever all the way up and adjust the length of the rod to fit without moving either the spark lever or the distributor. After you get the adjustment made, turn on ignition to battery and very slowly turn the crank and the spark should come just after the piston passes top dead center. This can be done with any cylinder, It does not have to be number 1 to make this last test.
Now start up the engine and see how it runs. It should be best with the spark about 3/4 down.
Norm
It was timed to piston position via crank pin around 15 degrees ATDC. When running on mag. about 2/3 to 3/4 down feels optimal @ speed & great for idle. 3rd firing node. All the way down to 4th node feels too advanced. All the way up provides a nice retard for slow idle & slowing to stop. Its close, but can be over advanced if not cognoscente. I had considered eliminating, but that over retards & I might be dealing with overheating issues.
My 14 is set the same with same timer & mag mode, but, I know to not over advance


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Dan McEachern » Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:05 am

Spark knock? put some premium gas in it and see if that helps or simply don't advance as far. Put a vacuum gage on it and max vacuum should happen at full advance as I recall.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:17 am

Dan McEachern wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:05 am
Spark knock? put some premium gas in it and see if that helps or simply don't advance as far. Put a vacuum gage on it and max vacuum should happen at full advance as I recall.
Thanks Dan. Your idea/thinking had entered my mind yesterday. flogging this motor, cold, over advanced with a straight thru while it screams for mercy gasping on an unvaporized fluid Ca. calls fuel. I am still cringing from that video. The only thing missing was the crank snap. I am still working theories.
So far, my best thoughts is there is no real problem that the judicious operation of this motor wont cure. Most of the governors have been removed, except for flywheel weigh, stock crank & carb. This motor has the extra HP to be able to destroy itself if one tries. The half dozen people that heard this motor run have heard nothing unusual or serious enough to encourage parking it. The radiator is gone away, so I am hanging for a few weeks to worry about it. Not going to test run untill I can get it hot. Working the situation as best I can.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Kerry » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:55 am

I'll put this story out there for consideration. A fresh rebuild was giving a very experienced T mechanic a lot of grief, engine rattle and temp problems, so I was called for the why. After all considerations I come to the conclusion it had to be timer related, it was, the tool used was a cam to seal diameter for alignment which was fine and done many engines but the cover it's self was machined slightly off centering the timer which gave the issues. Another cover solved the problem. My own alignment tool does the cam to the out side diameter of the timer.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:43 am

Kerry wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:55 am
I'll put this story out there for consideration. A fresh rebuild was giving a very experienced T mechanic a lot of grief, engine rattle and temp problems, so I was called for the why. After all considerations I come to the conclusion it had to be timer related, it was, the tool used was a cam to seal diameter for alignment which was fine and done many engines but the cover it's self was machined slightly off centering the timer which gave the issues. Another cover solved the problem. My own alignment tool does the cam to the out side diameter of the timer.
I appreciate the input on this matter. I am running around trying to calm Craigs fears. I am aware of which you speak.
I purchased an aluminum KRW copy decades ago. Upon close inspection, I found the sloppy cam hole was not center in the tool.
The tool was bored & bushed tightly centered. The timer cover is perfectly centered & the new day fits snugly. The motor ran real strong to 60 with no excessive or unexpected noises when I last drove it. Its a high performance motor geared to run effortlessly all day @ 45 with a rux to flatten the hills when operated properly.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Norman Kling » Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:06 am

Something I just found a few days ago, on a car which I have been doing some work on for a friend. The fan belt was quite worn, so I ordered a new one and when I took it off I found that the lower pulley on the end of the crankshaft is very loose. The pin is tight but just the pulley is loose. It is so loose it rattles around. I ordered a new pulley which has not yet come so I have not yet installed it. This same car has a knock after the engine warms up. I re-set the timing and it helped. When the new pulley comes, and I install it, I will try out the engine and see if it eliminates the knock.
In one of my own cars, the pulley was tight but the pin was loose and it knocked at idle. The pin would move from one side to the other as the engine idled, but when it was going faster the centrifugal force kept it in place and the knock stopped, however, it looks to me like a loose pulley would knock especially when the engine is being revved up. We will see.
Norm


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:29 am

Norman Kling wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:06 am
Something I just found a few days ago, on a car which I have been doing some work on for a friend. The fan belt was quite worn, so I ordered a new one and when I took it off I found that the lower pulley on the end of the crankshaft is very loose. The pin is tight but just the pulley is loose. It is so loose it rattles around. I ordered a new pulley which has not yet come so I have not yet installed it. This same car has a knock after the engine warms up. I re-set the timing and it helped. When the new pulley comes, and I install it, I will try out the engine and see if it eliminates the knock.
In one of my own cars, the pulley was tight but the pin was loose and it knocked at idle. The pin would move from one side to the other as the engine idled, but when it was going faster the centrifugal force kept it in place and the knock stopped, however, it looks to me like a loose pulley would knock especially when the engine is being revved up. We will see.
Norm
I got the car back for other work. One item was the alt conversion (for a non generator motor) wasnt working. Replaced the crank pulley. It loosened & clanged. Pin fits tight. Replaced with another one. It is possible the second one got loose again. Had Craig remove the fan belt. No change in noises by his account. Will check myself. If loose again, I will have to get an aluminum one. Prefer not to because of the poor ratchet engagement of those new pulleys. Yes, a loose pulley makes noise on acceleration. A real loose one can knock continuously.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by SurfCityGene » Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:30 pm

I guess like some others that have heard the engine in person my comment was Holly Cow that is getting Really bad now!
Then I realized this video was recorded Before I saw the car in person. For those that watched and listened to the knocking on the video to me the sound was not realistic.

I'm hearing some great ideas that I hope to remember in the future when needed. I hate to say that I'm sort of suspecting the crank.. A BIG Hats off to You Johnny for all your hard work on this especially in the midst of other concerns. Sometimes its good to a have something like this to keep your mind away for more serious issues.
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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by got10carz » Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:51 pm

I dont think anyone has mentioned camshaft thrust. Is the front bushing proper for that cam?


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:18 pm

got10carz wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:51 pm
I dont think anyone has mentioned camshaft thrust. Is the front bushing proper for that cam?
Yes. The cam bearing is correct & of proper length & wont allow the cam to slide until well worn. In fact the front of the cam has a thrust washer setup also. The cam cant move forward more than .010" if the bearing were to wear to that point.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:52 pm

Really sounds like a bad main bearing. Yes, I know, the babbitt is fresh, etc., but that's what it sounds like to me. :)

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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by perry kete » Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:15 pm

CraigBothwell wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:48 am
I recently had my motor rebuilt
Did you rebuild it or was it done by someone else? If someone else why haven't you taken it back to them.
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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:19 pm

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:52 pm
Really sounds like a bad main bearing. Yes, I know, the babbitt is fresh, etc., but that's what it sounds like to me. :)
Possible. Hard to believe that could have happened so soon with 100% contact time saver job. So far, the plug short out test didnt indicate this.
When I get to her in person, I will test for it. Thanks


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:52 pm

speedytinc wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:19 pm
Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:52 pm
Really sounds like a bad main bearing. Yes, I know, the babbitt is fresh, etc., but that's what it sounds like to me. :)
Possible. Hard to believe that could have happened so soon with 100% contact time saver job. So far, the plug short out test didnt indicate this.
When I get to her in person, I will test for it. Thanks
Shorting the plugs tends to show rod knocks, not so much mains. My experience anyway...

100% contact & Timesaver will mean nothing if the babbitt has let go. I'm just guessing of course... but my Speedster sounded exactly like that when the front main went out. :o


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:22 pm

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:52 pm
speedytinc wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:19 pm
Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:52 pm
Really sounds like a bad main bearing. Yes, I know, the babbitt is fresh, etc., but that's what it sounds like to me. :)
Possible. Hard to believe that could have happened so soon with 100% contact time saver job. So far, the plug short out test didnt indicate this.
When I get to her in person, I will test for it. Thanks
Shorting the plugs tends to show rod knocks, not so much mains. My experience anyway...

100% contact & Timesaver will mean nothing if the babbitt has let go. I'm just guessing of course... but my Speedster sounded exactly like that when the front main went out. :o
I should have been more specific. This a new Babbitt job from a reputable local guy.
I am real pickey about 100% contact & a good job should leave the crank, less rods to spin with one finger. Still any thing is possible. If I have to pull the cover, rods & main babbit will be checked. Thanks. All ideas welcome


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Dave Sullivan » Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:45 pm

Is gear lash of timing gears .006? Might not be a little much? 300 and 240 Ford sixes with metal gears are sometimes pretty noisy, mostly at idle, last forever anyway, had several.. Dave in Bellingham, WA


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:11 pm

Dave Sullivan wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:45 pm
Is gear lash of timing gears .006? Might not be a little much? 300 and 240 Ford sixes with metal gears are sometimes pretty noisy, mostly at idle, last forever anyway, had several.. Dave in Bellingham, WA
Yes, could be. Manufacturer recommends .004 -.006. Next oversize is +.004. Top quality bronze. I believe ford iron gear specs replace @ .005-6. Bronze grows more when hot than iron. A little gear noise (if?) is better than too tight. Gear noise doesnt bother me a bit in my own motors. At one point I was helping a friend with an aluminum gear install. For giggles we put it in a pot of boiling water. O.D. grew .020"


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Joe Bell » Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:13 pm

Pull the head and see if pistons are hitting it, rods will stretch on revving engine, had an A engine that block and head where both milled to much and caused this noise?


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by VinTin23 » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:50 am

May have missed this, but

Who rebuilt the motor?

Crank, stock, under #

Pistons, Brand, size

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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by AndreFordT » Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:46 am

A while ago I was working on an engine that made about the same noice when running.
Took it all apart and only when I put the second piston back in place I found the noice.
I was one of the rod bolt head that touched the camshaft. Grinded the head and the noice was gone. See photos .
Just a sugestion where to look.

Good luck
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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:44 am

Andre

that is an astute observation. Considering most every other suggestion has already been checked for, this is quite plausible.
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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:56 pm

Joe Bell wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:13 pm
Pull the head and see if pistons are hitting it, rods will stretch on revving engine, had an A engine that block and head where both milled to much and caused this noise?
Head was checked for clearance without a gasket in all directions of head bolt slop by hand cranking. No hint of contact. Adding the thickness of the compressed head gasket, Do you still think pistons hitting is possible?? This may be possible. I may be able to check with a bore scope in each cyl.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:07 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:44 am
Andre

that is an astute observation. Considering most every other suggestion has already been checked for, this is quite plausible.
Considering its a new, Stipe cam (bigger & beefier). Possible, but how do you explain that there were no noises when first run & 20 or 30 miles before & until the alternator was removed? Some thing must have loosened up? When it left there were no unusual noises. Maybe a bit of gear noise.
I think you guys are getting close & I have more areas to explore for the diagnosis. Thanks. Keep the brain trust coming.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:15 pm

I would think that since it shows up with vigor under sudden hard acceleration, there must be some RPM point where it occurs, and at that point, (once piston/rod/cam clearance is verified) I'd be going over the whole thing with a stethoscope to try to isolate the impact.

If it does not show up under slow increase in RPM, then I'd suspect a loose cam gear or anything you can dream up that would deflect under sudden acceleration.

If a lifter is barely trying to kiss the block on the underside due to extra lift from a 280 cam and the cam bearing is slightly loose then that would show up as a "hit" under sudden acceleration, though don't think it would be as heavy a hit as you hear on the video.
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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:36 pm

VinTin23 wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:50 am
May have missed this, but

Who rebuilt the motor?

Crank, stock, under #

Pistons, Brand, size
Machine work & babbit were done by a very experienced man Primarily model A.
Crank was ground & done by our best area crank man. He does a lot of T's Special radiused stones. He grinds to clean only & is known for magnafluxing & straightening first. Any issues he calls first. Personally used him over 40 years. So crank/rod journals are left max meat.
I am sure the 3rd main was no more than .012 under & rods .005- .010 under max. Stock diamond crank.
Pistons are these pretty jeweled units from China .030 over. Wrist pin finger push fit. .004 skirt clearence.
I dissassembled 3/4 short block. & checked everything. straightened 2 rods a little to get perfect. Everything balanced.
Time saver babbit to improve contact & fit.
Stipe 280 super degreed perfect to spec in all 4.
Tran out put .001" final output run out. 4th main slid on perfect.
Prus head. Every thing top notch to the best of my knowledge & experience.
This is a hot , torquey motor, built & geared to run effortlessly @40-45 all day & flatten hills as needed with the rux. 3-1 gearing.
Carb: straight thru.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:13 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:15 pm
I would think that since it shows up with vigor under sudden hard acceleration, there must be some RPM point where it occurs, and at that point, (once piston/rod/cam clearance is verified) I'd be going over the whole thing with a stethoscope to try to isolate the impact.

If it does not show up under slow increase in RPM, then I'd suspect a loose cam gear or anything you can dream up that would deflect under sudden acceleration.

If a lifter is barely trying to kiss the block on the underside due to extra lift from a 280 cam and the cam bearing is slightly loose then that would show up as a "hit" under sudden acceleration, though don't think it would be as heavy a hit as you hear on the video.
There was no knocking noises for the range of throttle increases in driving.
I suspect the worst knocking noises created in the video were from a cold motor, over advance & the poor vaporizing qualities of a straight thru. Noticed similar stuff when cold. I let it warm up before pushing the rpms. Upon starting the manifold freezes up white. After a few minutes it is still very cold. I will try a fresh swayback as part of the diagnostics & limit the over advancement possibilities. Had a heat pipe on & found a little performance loss so removed it Wont help cold, but maybe when hot. Further experimentation needed. Never had good luck with a straight thru.

After a crank pully change, I got an acceleration knock. Loose pully. Replaced. New one loose again? dont know yet. Gear noise? possibly. Minor to my ear.

Lifters. Painfully aware of Stipe cam /lifter issue. Recently fought the install on my 14. The cure was new colony thin lifters & a little bore chamfer.
Same procedure here. Pretty sure I built plenty of clearance in. Will check if I have to go deep. Cam bearings fit were excellent. Front of timing gear thrust washered to remove the chance of bearing wear & potential cam bearing pin slop. .010 clearance.
I am concerned some thing actually changed in the last 50-60 miles. The last guy to hear it (Gene) Concluded the noise wasnt bad enough to park. ??? "Run it & see if it gets worse". Still not convinced there is an actual problem that cant be cured by proper operation.( unless something radically changed since i drove it) Hanging by my nails until he gets the radiator back.

Thanks for your help & input. Was hoping to get your learned opinion.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by Joe Bell » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:03 pm

John has a point on the lifters, I chased that one down once myself, another one I had was a .060 engine with the older square sided pistons, before the champhered the top corners of the pistons, the piston was hitting the head gasket from over bore, but that noise sounded like one rod noise.


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Re: Engine noise from freshly rebuilt engine.

Post by speedytinc » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:59 pm

Got the car back. Quiet as a purring kitten when started up. When warm & throttle goosed there is a little gravelly noise. likely pinging. Will be working the details out. I suspect some timing advance & carburetor issues. Carb didnt want to richen. Will update on the cure.

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