MTFCA Forum

I'm considering to purchase this unit that would be my first T. I'm looking for a pre-1919 as original as possible and even
if I read some books about the model T I'd prefer that the experts and owners community give me an advice about the car.
What are the parts missing or not original. With regard to stamped numbers on engine from which I deduce the date is May 15,
1918, although the serial number indicates March of that year. Why that difference. I also understand that at that time there is
no more serial number with which I deduce that there is no way to check if the chassis, transmission is the factory one?
On the other hand, as a resident in Spain, I do not know what is the procedure for the cataloging of a vehicle as historic in the
US or Canada for example. Here, the non-expendable elements (engine, headlights, transmission ...) must be the original ones

Looks like a 1917 to me. That is the body, chassis, engine, transmission, lights, radiator, all are correct for that year. The only serial number is the engine block stamped number, and it is a 1917 or 1918 number (hard to read the second digit). The only thing I can see that is not correct for a 1917 touring is the demountable wheels, but that is a typical upgrade by owners and restorers, most people would not consider it of historical significance or negatively affecting the value, in fact most people seem to prefer demountable rims. Good looking complete car, I see nothing in the pictures that would be an issue with registering it as a 1917 Ford Model T Touring. That is a good looking, complete, mostly correct car that has undergone a restoration sometime in its distant past.

I think its a great looking car. 1917 was the first year with the black radiator & the more streamlined look. I would love to have a car like that myself.

Very few people will know if everything is EXACTLY correct. If it looks basically correct & you tell the authorities that is IS correct, that ought to be good enough. My own cars are mostly correct and as the years go by I try to make them more the way I think to be correct. Getting these cars in the shape you want them need not be done all at once. Part of the fun is finding the right bits and adding them as you go along.

Paul

Yes. Nice looking 1917 Ford. Correct taper leaf rear springs and notched end front springs. Looks to have a 1915 black/brass rear tail lamp. Cool locking steering wheel accessory too.

You can go here: https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/ to review what is correct or not, which may lead you to find the car is an amalgamation of parts, or a different year than on the title. Both are common in the hobby and nothing in my opinion, to get wound up over.

The engine serial number indicates March 1918, but if I am understanding the casting date on the block correctly, a May 1918 casting date...huh...

anyway it is a nice looking car and has a lot of original things still on it that were usually replaced. Nice find.

It looks like it's had water in the engine most if not all of it's life and if so, will be very very rusty. You can almost count on cooling issues initially, but these cars come with built-in projects anyway...you just don't know what they are until you start driving.

have fun and welcome to the affliction

It has the low filler plug on the diff which was done in 1918 for the 1919 model in USA and done in 1915 for Canadian T's.

It also appears to have a later front axle with the wishbone under the axle. A common upgrade as the later design is a bit stronger than the original with the wishbone mounting above the axle.

Looks like it would make a good driver T.

What I see does not indicated 1917 Ford.

The following are not correct for the 1917 model year:

- wheels
- rear axle due to the location of the drain plug
- muffler is later
- front perches and wishbone are later
- do not see light switch on right side of firewall
- appears to have 1918 and later, square top sockets

If you provide better and more detailed photos, I can tell you whether or not it is a 1917.

If the motor number is March 1918 and original to the car, then it is definitely not a 1917.

Also, look for the body number on the front passenger floor riser. That will include a month and year for the body.

I'll leave the nit-picking to others. Just enjoy the car. Being from Ohio myself, naturally I'm curious as to WHERE in Ohio you found it! Enjoy the ride and the affliction!

For me I wouldn’t about the differences that may have been added over the years. You won’t find many Model T’s that doesn’t have a few differences on them. The average person at the DMV wouldn’t know the difference. Newer Model year parts were added the the later years in that era. Nothing to worry about. Have fun as it is and change a few things if you want a little later.

I had a good friend who had a 22 Roadster years ago and nothing would upset him more than a guy telling him his car wasn’t completely correct. His answer was the parts he used would fit and came off another Model T. His idea was if it was a Model T part it was OK. To each his own. Good luck with you car!

july76 wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:59 pm

I'm considering to purchase this unit that would be my first T. I'm looking for a pre-1919 as original as possible and even
if I read some books about the model T I'd prefer that the experts and owners community give me an advice about the car.
What are the parts missing or not original. '..... I do not know what is the procedure for the cataloging of a vehicle as historic in the
US or Canada for example. Here, the non-expendable elements (engine, headlights, transmission ...) must be the original ones

What do the Spanish Authorities define as "original"? From the comments above - everything is "original" Model T parts. Most Model T parts (body parts excluded) were designed to be upward and downward compatible within a few years Just like Today's cars - So if someone had the engine (or other parts) in their car replaced under the Factory Warranty - would that cause its year of manufacture to change? Same rules should apply to Vintage Cars


When is a Model T no longer a Model T?

Obviously SOME things have been changed over the years. The question is "What?" Some things previously mentioned are correct for 1917, the springs, front being long clipped (a one year oddity?), and the tapered leaf rear spring (1917 was generally the last year for that). I would also point out that the windshield appears to be the even fold hinges, which were last used in mid 1917. However, as others said, rear axle housing and front axle assembly along with the wheels weren't available until later in 1918 or 1919.

As for the casting and serial number dates. While that anomaly may be confusing, it isn't all that unusual. In the early days of automobiles, there weren't any reliable antifreezes for the cooling system. It was very common for first time automobile owners to leave water in the engine for the first winter and freeze and break the block and/or radiator! It was quite common for the original engine to be ruined, and a replacement installed when only a year or two old. Replacement engines and or blocks often did not have serial numbers on them when purchased so that the original serial number could be stamped onto the new engine block. Replacement engine blocks often had later casting dates than the serial numbers (my 1913 has this issue!) they got stamped onto them.

Another thing I notice on the car is the dash panel. It appears to be wood. Open body model Ts all got steel dash panels at sometime during 1919. Prior to that, Ford factory did not supply such dash panels in open cars. After-market parts suppliers offered a variety of dash panels to mount after-market speedometers and light switches onto. This could be an indicator that the body and/or car is in fact pre-1919.

You, living in Spain, may have issues we in the United States don't generally worry about. I am not familiar with Spain's rules, however, I have known a few European collectors enough that I know much of Europe's rules are much more strict than the USA rules are. There is enough mix of parts on this car that there could be an issue with the year model. The title and the plate on the year may say 1917, but the car may be more 1918 than 1917. I would expect that the serial number month and year could be used as the 'official' year model, whichever year the serial number indicates.
Also as previously mentioned, I would recommend checking for a body manufacturer's serial number and date code. Not all model Ts then had one, but many 1917 and 1918 cars still did have such date codes on the body. These are usually found either on the wooden body sills next to the lower floorboards, or the upper floor board risers, or under the seat cushions on the front seat riser. The actual location varies by body manufacturer and/or production run.
The body serial number would be a line of five to seven numbers. Those numbers should be preceded by a couple numbers with some spaces, the first one or two numbers would be from "1" to "12", indicating the month of the year, followed by two digits, indicating the calendar year. A "3 18 " followed by several other numbers would equate to March of 1918.

Nice looking model T! Good luck however which way you decide to go.

Our 1917 cars came with plain glass headlight lenses rather than the fluted H lens fitted to the car. Easily fixed!

Allan from down under.

Allan beat me to it - clear glass headlight lenses. The firewall was also replaced at some time as they came painted black from the factory. My 1917 touring was built in September 1916 and still has the centered windshield hinges - I think they changed over in May 1917. Mine was a non-starter car but I chose to add a starter during rebuild. A lot can happen in a century but all things considered, that car would easily pass for a 1917-18 with maybe a few parts replaced. A few more closeups in better light would be a big help. BTW - the only numbers on my 1917 are the casting date and the serial number on the engine.

As I understand it, Ford used parts on hand to build cars, with rare exceptions. I'd guess that Detroit built cars may have received revised content sooner than cars assembled at the several branch operations did. Local economic and weather conditions may have affected production volume at the branches differently, and thus affected how quickly obsolete parts were consumed and revised parts phased into production. Wartime disruptions probably added to the confusion.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:08 pm

As I understand it, Ford used parts on hand to build cars, with rare exceptions. I'd guess that Detroit built cars may have received revised content sooner than cars assembled at the several branch operations did. Local economic and weather conditions may have affected production volume at the branches differently, and thus affected how quickly obsolete parts were consumed and revised parts phased into production. Wartime disruptions probably added to the confusion.

Exactly! We are often mislead in our thinking by modern methods & processes to those used in the past. Henry was extremely frugal. Do you think he would have scrapped the previous years parts upon the introduction of a new model?. Today we refer to it as planned obsolescence.

I took new pictures, what can we conclude comparing this with other numbers? it seems to read May 153 7 02...

As to the question in the OP, In the USA Antique plate requirements vary with the state. In New Hampshire for instance the vehicle is supposed to be of show quality and absolutely original. Even the hubcaps are supposed to be correct for the model and year. In Massachusetts, if the serial number is correct for the year you are all set. Many states have special requirements as to how much you can drive the antique car; 5,000 miles (8047 KM) is a number found frequently. Here in Sunny Florida the state allows the insurance company to set the number. My '82 Chevy pickup has antique plates with no restriction because I have the same insurance as I do on my modern cars. My Model T has Hagerty Insurance and is limited to non-commercial use 5,000 miles per year. With no odometer that would be hard to measure.

Difficult to tell for sure, but the axles look like they could be the 60 inch wide tread that were not made in 1918.