T Eats Timers
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Topic author - Posts: 6445
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T Eats Timers
My '26-7 car seems to have an appetite for timers. It is equipped with a New Day type timer and has a modern oil seal on the cam. The engine runs well, for the most part. After driving the car several months, probably a thousand miles or so, it began to run ragged on battery. I decided to look at the timer, which had a fair amount of metallic dust in it and showed a lot of brush wear. The brush looked like copper. I wiped it out and put it back on, and the car ran much better for a day or two, then began to get ragged again. I put a used timer on the car and it ran great at low speeds, but ragged at higher speeds. I then put a new timer on it with a brass brush. The car ran pretty good. It ran fine for about 50 miles just yesterday. Today, I decided to take a look at the timer. It looked awful, with about a level teaspoon full of metallic power and the brass brush worn way down, but worn very smooth on the face. The timer case shows some burns in the insulation on the right side of the contacts, probably caused by the metalllic dust. I don't see how the car ran at all with the timer in such shape. This timer has about 200 miles or less since new. The coils appear to be in good shape, and the car runs 95% of the time on Mag. The wear pattern on the timer case and brush appear to be normal and concentric, just excessive. There is no significant wear on the timer case, but the brush is about gone. I believe that most all the metallic dust is from the brush. Does anyone know what's going on here?
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Re: T Eats Timers
Are you running an "original" New Day or repros ? There are good & not so good repros out there.
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Re: T Eats Timers
My Reproduction New Day from Tip Top timers has run fine for almost 5000 miles. I've cleaned the dust from it maybe four times.....plastic dust, not metallic. It has a brass brush that shows little wear. If the cap of your New Day has an "S" on it you have one of the bad ones.
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Re: T Eats Timers
I run an original new Day and ran it on battery only for about 10 years, then fixed the timer and again since then. Been on long tours and many short tours I haven't needed to replace or even do any work on the timer. Only wipe it out if I need to pull the cap off for some reason. I would suspect the metal in the brush is too hard or the spring too strong. It could also be caused by end play in the timing cam shaft. Or maybe the plate on the front of the engine is off center causing the brush to hit the edge of the timer. Have you tried another type of timer?
Norm
Norm
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Re: T Eats Timers
That is why I bought an I-Timer.
There are no physical connections, and the car runs great. It was well worth the investment.
You will also need a set of rebuilt coils to go along with the timer. Afterwards you will notice an improvement.
There are no physical connections, and the car runs great. It was well worth the investment.
You will also need a set of rebuilt coils to go along with the timer. Afterwards you will notice an improvement.
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Re: T Eats Timers
The wear track is concentric. I haven't looked for the "S" mark, but will do so. I put the better-looking used timer back on. It has a copper plated brush assembly and the bronze/copper-looking brush has a wear surface of silver metal. This brush shows no wear and the case looks pretty good. I didn't check for end play. The lip type seal does not leak, and the engine is pretty tight overall. I mentioned trying the used timer a few days ago, and the car ran very well at low speeds but got ragged after driving a few miles in 98F heat. That problem may have been related to hot fuel rather than the timer. I insulated the fuel line and the car cas run pretty good ever since. It ran good yesterday with the timer full of metal powder. It's possible I have mixed parts form one timer set with those from another. I've noticed that some brushes look like yellow brass, and others look like copper or bronze.
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Re: T Eats Timers
As a runner of A new day, I learned there is a LOT to do & know for long life & best performance. You cant throw it on out of the box. The ones I run are rebuilt older original units. The gear cover cutout has to be perpendicular to the cam. (some are not) Centering isnt as important, but can effect firing performance. The timer face to edge distance must be the same all around. The timer contact surface must be flat & polished smooth. The brass & metal brushes chew up that surface. They must run dry. I make my own carbon brush. When installing you must check the running position of the brush holder & face. If the cam can move forward while running, it can damage the face. Watch the timer whall running, it should not be bouncing with a light timer cover spring. Sometimes the brush holder needs to be adjusted/modified. I front thrusted my cam gear to prevent the in & out movement tendency of angle cut gears. Bushing the timer arm hole to limit slop. etc. etc. A small manual could be produced for this & other timer details. When you get it right, it will last for years, until the carbon brush wears down, needing replacement, but the face lives on.
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Re: T Eats Timers
I have installed these type units. They work well & are trouble free.Fire_chief wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:34 pmThat is why I bought an I-Timer.
There are no physical connections, and the car runs great. It was well worth the investment.
You will also need a set of rebuilt coils to go along with the timer. Afterwards you will notice an improvement.
Money wise, its bound to pay for itself over a lifetime.
If I couldnt get a new day to work, it would have been my next try.
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Re: T Eats Timers
I will try loosening the spring and see if the case jiggles with the motor running. I haven't seen any indication of uneven wear around the contact surface. When the spring is tightened, the case moves smoothly without much force, but with some friction resistance. It won't wiggle unless the spring bolt is backed way out. The timing lever stays where it's put. There is some slack in the linkage, but not much. I added some washers to the link points to prevent the rod from twisting.
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Re: T Eats Timers
Can you get some photos of the cap and brush?
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Re: T Eats Timers
Just wondering- has the timing cover been correctly aligned with the camshaft using the 3009T alignment gauge/tool?
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Re: T Eats Timers
Thats not critical with a face type timer like a new day, but can effect timing accuracy. Critical with a roller type timer.Bill Robinson wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:13 pmJust wondering- has the timing cover been correctly aligned with the camshaft using the 3009T alignment gauge/tool?
The cover timer recess needs to be perpendicular(square) to the cam. This can be done with a dial indicator. Not really pertenant to the running of a roller timer.
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Re: T Eats Timers
I checked the camshaft end play with a pry bar and it is 1/16". Is the rotor/brush holder supposed to "float" on the cam? This one does not. When the nut on the end of the cam is snugged up, the rotor is locked to the cam. It would be possible to put an acorn nut on the cam so that the nut would bottom before locking the rotor, which could then float forward and back slightly. I ran the car about 50 miles and it runs pretty good. I did not look inside the timer after the run. I have 3 timers, and I'm not certain I haven't mixed some parts. One timer looks to be quite old, and is in need of refurbishment. One was brand new, and the third one looked like it wasn't very old. One case has no holes in the arrow-shaped contacts; one has small round holes in them, and the old looking one has square holes in the contacts. One brush looks like yellow brass, one like copper, and one is brass with a silver wear face. It looks to me like the cam end play is OK, and the wear circle on the timer cases shows no indication that the timer cover isn't square or that it is not centered with the camshaft.
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Re: T Eats Timers
I have a small stash of New Days. I've been running an NOS one since I bought my '15. Ditto what John K. said. Make a carbon (or better yet, graphite) brush, and all wear on the timer face stops.
Regarding the metal dust you found, I've run into that first hand, as well. The metal brush is the culprit, but not so much because it's metal. It's because the brush itself is loose in the carrier. It will wobble over, and then the edge acts like a lathe tool, chewing up the timer face and itself. Bottom line is, if you can wiggle the brush like a loose tooth, ditch it (or use the carrier with a fitted carbon brush). Many of the reproduction brushes I have are loose like that. A few are not. I have one NOS New Day, still in the box. The brush slides in and out of the carrier with virtually no side-play. BTW, the original carrier is copper-plated steel.
I bought one of the new bakelite reproductions to see how well it was made compared to my last untouched original. I can report that the workmanship is really good. The timer itself is indistinguishable except for the color, and the brush that comes with it slides without side-play just like the original. ...my 2¢
Regarding the metal dust you found, I've run into that first hand, as well. The metal brush is the culprit, but not so much because it's metal. It's because the brush itself is loose in the carrier. It will wobble over, and then the edge acts like a lathe tool, chewing up the timer face and itself. Bottom line is, if you can wiggle the brush like a loose tooth, ditch it (or use the carrier with a fitted carbon brush). Many of the reproduction brushes I have are loose like that. A few are not. I have one NOS New Day, still in the box. The brush slides in and out of the carrier with virtually no side-play. BTW, the original carrier is copper-plated steel.
I bought one of the new bakelite reproductions to see how well it was made compared to my last untouched original. I can report that the workmanship is really good. The timer itself is indistinguishable except for the color, and the brush that comes with it slides without side-play just like the original. ...my 2¢
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Re: T Eats Timers
The new timer I installed showed wobble betwwen the brush and holder. The used copper plated brush holder with the silver tipped brush shows very little slop between the brush and holder. The unit that was on the car when I got it had the brush worn down and running at an angle. It did run well for quite some time. It was operating the coil that had a missing point contact, but I don't know for how long or if that affected the timer.
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Re: T Eats Timers
I have always used the original style roller timer in all three T’s and once they become extinct I too will try the I Timer.
I maintain, clean and oil the unit twice a year, no big deal. I do however check that the 4 metal segments are concentric
with the outer housing. It’s one thing to get the timing cover true to the Camshaft but it follows that the segments must
be true to the outer (unpainted) housing. Many new ones are not and needs a very fine “lick” in the Lathe before fitting.
Alan in Western Australia
I maintain, clean and oil the unit twice a year, no big deal. I do however check that the 4 metal segments are concentric
with the outer housing. It’s one thing to get the timing cover true to the Camshaft but it follows that the segments must
be true to the outer (unpainted) housing. Many new ones are not and needs a very fine “lick” in the Lathe before fitting.
Alan in Western Australia
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Re: T Eats Timers
Got the answer.
Thursday nights we meet for a mechanical discussion & repair meet. Thursday T party.
Your post was brought up by a Montana buddy expert. He is my go to guy when I have a problem.
High coil amp draw eats timers.
Example: Another Montana boy had his coils adjusted by a local coil tuner. Ate the timer fast. The coils were tuned on a strobospark tester that had a bad ammeter. Coils were all set @ 1.3 amp draw by the unit. Independent testing showed a consistent 1.7 amp draw. Tuned on an ECCT, no more problems. It was further explained that setting with an ECCT doesnt show or set to a specific amp draw directly, but by firing time, which equates to a low amp draw around 1.2-1.3 amps.
So, test your coils for amp draw. A hcct would show the amp draw. Wont set the coils to an optimal, accurate firing time, but will do the job.
Let us know if this was indeed the answer.
Thursday nights we meet for a mechanical discussion & repair meet. Thursday T party.
Your post was brought up by a Montana buddy expert. He is my go to guy when I have a problem.
High coil amp draw eats timers.
Example: Another Montana boy had his coils adjusted by a local coil tuner. Ate the timer fast. The coils were tuned on a strobospark tester that had a bad ammeter. Coils were all set @ 1.3 amp draw by the unit. Independent testing showed a consistent 1.7 amp draw. Tuned on an ECCT, no more problems. It was further explained that setting with an ECCT doesnt show or set to a specific amp draw directly, but by firing time, which equates to a low amp draw around 1.2-1.3 amps.
So, test your coils for amp draw. A hcct would show the amp draw. Wont set the coils to an optimal, accurate firing time, but will do the job.
Let us know if this was indeed the answer.
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Re: T Eats Timers
Absolutely.Alan Long wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:03 amI have always used the original style roller timer in all three T’s and once they become extinct I too will try the I Timer.
I maintain, clean and oil the unit twice a year, no big deal. I do however check that the 4 metal segments are concentric
with the outer housing. It’s one thing to get the timing cover true to the Camshaft but it follows that the segments must
be true to the outer (unpainted) housing. Many new ones are not and needs a very fine “lick” in the Lathe before fitting.
Alan in Western Australia
New roller timers are not usable out of the box & need a "rebuild" facing to center & remove the high/low spots.
Trust, but verify.
I am always looking for rebuild-able/re-machinable worn roller timers with insulators still in tact.
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Re: T Eats Timers
I wold expect high current draw to wreck the timer. I have no way to check the coils, other than the one that had a visible defect (missing contact point, still ran fine) which I replaced with a spare. The new timer that trashed itself was not exposed to that coil. The coils in use sound good and work good, for what that's worth. One is a spare, and the other 3 are part of a set of 4 that have likely had recent expert attention. I wonder how a failing timer might affect coil adjustment.
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Re: T Eats Timers
There have been some old discussions on a certain New Timer model designated with an S"S" in the 12 o'clock position http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1392132115 Having read some additional discussion and looking at the components I wonder if the culprit is the brush more than the timer case. The brush is the moving component, if it doesn't ride true across the inside face its bound to cause excessive wear.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 1501892976
By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, August 04, 2017 - 05:28 pm:
Its the brush rotor that I like in this design, as the bronze brush fit in the steel housing has little 'slop or wiggle' when compressed into the rotor cylinder. If you grasp the compressed brush, (there is a spring behind the brush) you can't wiggle much. The other repops you can wiggle the brush too much IMO.
That can be a cause of failure to the earlier New Day repops.
This photo is showing the best I could of why it's important that the brush rides more firmly in the steel housing without undue wiggle or slop.
If you observe the upper rotor (Tip Top's new New Day rotor) you can see its compressed some as when in position for running, and the retaining pin is centered nicely in the steel housing.
Note the lower brush from other available repops, as these brushes aren't made to fit nice, there is lots of wiggle of the brush in the housing.
That allows the retaining pin to ride on the edge of the vertical slot that controls depth of the brush. By impinging on the edge of this slot while the brush is whirled around the housing under spring pressure, excess pressure is placed on that retaining pin, that leads to ultimate fracture of the bronze brush at the hole for the retaining pin.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 1501892976
By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, August 04, 2017 - 05:28 pm:
Its the brush rotor that I like in this design, as the bronze brush fit in the steel housing has little 'slop or wiggle' when compressed into the rotor cylinder. If you grasp the compressed brush, (there is a spring behind the brush) you can't wiggle much. The other repops you can wiggle the brush too much IMO.
That can be a cause of failure to the earlier New Day repops.
This photo is showing the best I could of why it's important that the brush rides more firmly in the steel housing without undue wiggle or slop.
If you observe the upper rotor (Tip Top's new New Day rotor) you can see its compressed some as when in position for running, and the retaining pin is centered nicely in the steel housing.
Note the lower brush from other available repops, as these brushes aren't made to fit nice, there is lots of wiggle of the brush in the housing.
That allows the retaining pin to ride on the edge of the vertical slot that controls depth of the brush. By impinging on the edge of this slot while the brush is whirled around the housing under spring pressure, excess pressure is placed on that retaining pin, that leads to ultimate fracture of the bronze brush at the hole for the retaining pin.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: T Eats Timers
The pin would need to be able to move smoothly forward and back in the slot to allow for normal cam movement and expansion. I don't see how it ever could with the brush loose in the holder. The brush assembly on the car now seems to have a good fit. I filed the rear face of the part that goes over the cam to allow it to run a little farther from the contact face. Non of these timers has the "S" mark.
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Re: T Eats Timers
Assuming your problem is electrical & not mechanical, as I went through on proper new day set up.TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:32 amI wold expect high current draw to wreck the timer. I have no way to check the coils, other than the one that had a visible defect (missing contact point, still ran fine) which I replaced with a spare. The new timer that trashed itself was not exposed to that coil. The coils in use sound good and work good, for what that's worth. One is a spare, and the other 3 are part of a set of 4 that have likely had recent expert attention. I wonder how a failing timer might affect coil adjustment.
The failing timer wont effect the coils. The bad coils burn up the timer. Sounds from the operating coil mean little to nothing. The ECCT coils I have do sound crisp & consistent. The HCCT coils I used to set had perfect amp draw & no double spark, but varied wildly in song. Go figure.
Take the coils that are ruining your timer & test them on a proper machine. Then get them accurately adjusted. You need the why & the fix.
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Re: T Eats Timers
I have seen some new day timers with a spring on the brush that is much too strong. I replace them with a spring out of a ball point pen.
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Re: T Eats Timers
I don't believe either of the brushes posted above are authentic. Original bushes are not as wide.
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Re: T Eats Timers
I have 5 coils in all. Two of them have the stud cut off so that there's no room for a jam nut. All 4 that came in the car are marked KW and had new-looking point sets. One of the point sets failed by losing a contact. (Still ran). I now have a spare on the car with a cut off stud and older looking point set. One coil sounded horrible, so I adjusted it to sound more like the others, which have the bee-like sound that I am more familair with. I put a dab of glue on one of the coils with the cut off stud to hold the adjustment. The car runs pretty good, and I've run it about 40 miles with no loss of performance. The timer looked fine yesterday after about 100 miles of driving. It is a brownish colored repro housing with no "S" and the copper-plated rotor with the silver-tipped brush, which probably did not come with it. It seems very unlikely that these coils are adjusted properly, and they may have other issues. It looks to me like I need to acquire a good set of coils and either a new timer or an I-timer. In the mean time, I'm going to replace the bad points on that coil and clean the points on the others and adjust them as best I can. That will put the set of 4 coils that were together in the car back in it and leave me with one coil in service with a cut off stud.
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Re: T Eats Timers
I cleaned the points on all 4 coils with emery paper and set them to .031. I checked and cleaned the contacts in the coil box, then put everything back together and put folded cardboard shims between the coils and the box to assure that they make good contact. The car now runs very well, and the timer, after 200 or so miles, is holding up. One of the coils needs the bridge shimmed on one side, and at least one appears to have cushion spring issues. One point set is visibly eroded with the other three looking OK. Looks like I need to get a set of tuned coils and a new timer.