What are these black upright brackets called ? My 23 touring is missing both. Are they available ?
Thanks John
Body brackets
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- Posts: 1692
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:23 pm
- First Name: Jeff
- Last Name: Humble
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Canadian built coupe, 1924 TT C-cab, survivor 1924 roadster
- Location: Charlevoix, Mi
- MTFCA Number: 28034
- Board Member Since: 2006
Re: Body brackets
Those brackets are for the fender and top supports. Reproductions are not available, but used ones should be easy to find. Check with Model T Haven.
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Topic author - Posts: 40
- Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:09 pm
- First Name: John
- Last Name: Ernst
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1922 Canadian Touring
- Location: Edmonton Alberta
Re: Body brackets
Thanks so much.
J
J
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- Posts: 221
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:15 am
- First Name: Bill
- Last Name: Harper
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '14 Touring, '20 TT Farm Truck, '24 TT Depot Hack, '24 Coupe, and a 1914 Metz Model 22 Torpedo Runabout
- Location: Keene, New Hampshire
- MTFCA Number: 5414
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: Body brackets
Hi John,
I have a pair of those brackets which I will never use.
Please email me, if interested, at: billsmodeltshop@gmail.com
Located in New Hampshire.
I have a pair of those brackets which I will never use.
Please email me, if interested, at: billsmodeltshop@gmail.com
Located in New Hampshire.
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- Posts: 811
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:59 pm
- First Name: William
- Last Name: Vanderburg
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 2
- Location: Jackson, NJ
- MTFCA Number: 28382
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- Posts: 365
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:58 pm
- First Name: Hap
- Last Name: Tucker
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 cut off touring; 1918 touring; 1922 Speedster
- Location: Sumter, SC
- MTFCA Number: 100
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
Re: Body brackets
John,
Summary: Welcome aboard! I think you will enjoy your T and the friends you will meet and make along the way. If your car body is a 1922 Canadian produced touring I do not think it needs that bracket. If it is a 1923 Canadian produced touring I don’t know if it does or does not need that bracket. The 1924-25 produced Canadian cars appear likely to use that bracket.
I believe a good clue is if your car has a hole on both sides of the rear seat panel for the straight top bow saddle support arms to fit through. Note a 1924-25 Canadian rear seat section can be grafted onto a an earlier Canadian touring body to replace the rear seat section if it was damaged or missing. And I’m sure that a late 1921 to 1925 USA rear seat section could be grafted onto a 1915-1925 Canadian touring body with minor modifications. Note the later 3 piece rear section has a slightly different body molding that does NOT match the earlier 5 piece rear seat section. It will function OK but the molding and the width of the arm rests are different. Below is a photo of a USA 1917-early 1921 5 piece rear panel and a USA later 1921 to 1925 3 piece rear panel. Notice how the top support bracket comes down from the top of the rear seat on the earlier USA bodies and out through the rear seat side panel on the later USA touring bodies. (That is also true for the USA runabout/roadster bodies but they switched to the new style a few months later than the touring cars.)
More details which hopefully will be of some help to you.
I plan to put up a posting this weekend on why I believe the 1922 and earlier Canadian tourings did not have that metal support you requested information about. And to ask if anyone has information on when Ford of Canada adopted the three piece rear seat panel that also used that part. And to confirm that all the 1924 Canadian cars had the three piece rear seat panel or to correct that guess and establish when the three piece rear seat panel was introduced. And how much overlap was there when both styles – the 5 piece and the 3 piece rear seat panel was used on the touring bodies. I will put a link to that posting here when I post it. Or if you post that question – please put a link here so I will find your new posting with the questions.
Additional thoughts:
This looks like your 2nd posting. With 15,000,000 plus Model T’s there were a lot of variations. The USA had many differences. Ford of Canada had their own changes. And what date items changed also varied sometimes from the USA and Canada as well as from the various assembly plants in both countries. Because of that, I would suggest that you add photos and information about your car so folks are more likely to be able to give you a better answer. Also let folks know when the photo is of your car and when it is of someone else’s car and you are only using it as an example to clarify a question etc. I don’t think that any of the photos you posted above are of your car, since they show the piece you are trying to locate. Did I guess correctly about that?
Also please let us know your desires for the car. Most of the time owners’ desires range somewhere between I just want to get it running -- to I want to set a new world’s speed record for a Model T -- to I want it to look like it came from the factory and all sorts of things in between those.
For the USA production the bracket you are looking for was introduced when the bodies moved from a “5 piece-panel” rear section to the 3 piece rear seat section sometime during early 1921. And for those 3-piece panels the top rest support arm came through the side of the panel rather than down from the top of the rear seat as the previous 1915-early 1921 cars. (See Lang’s 3858B at: https://www.modeltford.com/pl.aspx?t=s&v=3858B&page=1 Note – Lang’s as well as some of the other vendors often (but not always) use the original or close to the original Ford part numbers. ) (And yes, the 1914 and earlier cars had the same top rest support “L” shaped arm.) Some photos of your body showing the rear panels would be helpful and should let us know if it had that hole in the side for the top bracket or not.
Because Ford of Canada supplied most of the British Commonwealth countries, there is a one single family owned since new 1922 Canadian touring in New Zealand with a known history. It has the “5 piece-panel” rear section. And it does NOT use that USA styled bracket you are looking for. Why? Because Ford of Canada continued to use the same wooden rear seat riser construction from 1915 into the 1920s. They also continued their “clamp style” top holder that attached to the top of the rear seat panel. See postings by Alex Brown at: Model T Ford Forum: Single Family Cars...? (mtfca.com) And at the posting: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29 ... 1205709920 he shows the wooden rear seat section from inside the car. It does NOT use that support you were asking about. You can also see the top hold down supports.
An example of similar but different introduction of a new part: Ford of Canada introduced the slant windshield and one-man tops in 1920 while Ford USA did not introduce them until September 1922 for the touring and Nov 1922 for the Runabout both for the 1923 model year.
The US slant windshield has a stationary bottom window while the Canadian windshield had both a movable top and bottom window pane.
And I would also recommend that you have some folks verify what the year for your body, engine, transmission etc. are. With a few exceptions like the 1911 Torpedo Roadster and 1911 Open Roadster, just about any 1909-1925 Ford touring body will bolt onto any 1909-1925 chassis. Of course the hoods may not line up with the body, but if you also change out the radiator, hood, hood former when used, and a few other parts so they match the year range of the body – they bolt right on and function great. You shared you were new to “T’s” and that you thought the car was a 1922 or 23. And that may be exactly what it is. But if it is really a 1920 or 1925 or parts from the US and Canada it can make some differences.
Once you are fairly certain the car is a Canadian, US or combination of both, please mention that when you post your questions. And if is a Canadian car, recommend you put in the title “Canadian” or similar word so those folks with Canadian cars will be more likely to look at the posting.
Note, I have seen the later 1921-1925 USA “3-panel” rear section mated to a 1915 USA touring body. It does fit and 99% of the public would never wonder if it was the original rear seat section or not.
If I had more time I would make the post nicer and more ordered. But I figure posting it now like it is -- will be more helpful than posting it sometime next year.
Again, welcome to the forum and our hobby. I’m sure you will be able to sort out the car to meet your desires.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Summary: Welcome aboard! I think you will enjoy your T and the friends you will meet and make along the way. If your car body is a 1922 Canadian produced touring I do not think it needs that bracket. If it is a 1923 Canadian produced touring I don’t know if it does or does not need that bracket. The 1924-25 produced Canadian cars appear likely to use that bracket.
I believe a good clue is if your car has a hole on both sides of the rear seat panel for the straight top bow saddle support arms to fit through. Note a 1924-25 Canadian rear seat section can be grafted onto a an earlier Canadian touring body to replace the rear seat section if it was damaged or missing. And I’m sure that a late 1921 to 1925 USA rear seat section could be grafted onto a 1915-1925 Canadian touring body with minor modifications. Note the later 3 piece rear section has a slightly different body molding that does NOT match the earlier 5 piece rear seat section. It will function OK but the molding and the width of the arm rests are different. Below is a photo of a USA 1917-early 1921 5 piece rear panel and a USA later 1921 to 1925 3 piece rear panel. Notice how the top support bracket comes down from the top of the rear seat on the earlier USA bodies and out through the rear seat side panel on the later USA touring bodies. (That is also true for the USA runabout/roadster bodies but they switched to the new style a few months later than the touring cars.)
More details which hopefully will be of some help to you.
I plan to put up a posting this weekend on why I believe the 1922 and earlier Canadian tourings did not have that metal support you requested information about. And to ask if anyone has information on when Ford of Canada adopted the three piece rear seat panel that also used that part. And to confirm that all the 1924 Canadian cars had the three piece rear seat panel or to correct that guess and establish when the three piece rear seat panel was introduced. And how much overlap was there when both styles – the 5 piece and the 3 piece rear seat panel was used on the touring bodies. I will put a link to that posting here when I post it. Or if you post that question – please put a link here so I will find your new posting with the questions.
Additional thoughts:
This looks like your 2nd posting. With 15,000,000 plus Model T’s there were a lot of variations. The USA had many differences. Ford of Canada had their own changes. And what date items changed also varied sometimes from the USA and Canada as well as from the various assembly plants in both countries. Because of that, I would suggest that you add photos and information about your car so folks are more likely to be able to give you a better answer. Also let folks know when the photo is of your car and when it is of someone else’s car and you are only using it as an example to clarify a question etc. I don’t think that any of the photos you posted above are of your car, since they show the piece you are trying to locate. Did I guess correctly about that?
Also please let us know your desires for the car. Most of the time owners’ desires range somewhere between I just want to get it running -- to I want to set a new world’s speed record for a Model T -- to I want it to look like it came from the factory and all sorts of things in between those.
For the USA production the bracket you are looking for was introduced when the bodies moved from a “5 piece-panel” rear section to the 3 piece rear seat section sometime during early 1921. And for those 3-piece panels the top rest support arm came through the side of the panel rather than down from the top of the rear seat as the previous 1915-early 1921 cars. (See Lang’s 3858B at: https://www.modeltford.com/pl.aspx?t=s&v=3858B&page=1 Note – Lang’s as well as some of the other vendors often (but not always) use the original or close to the original Ford part numbers. ) (And yes, the 1914 and earlier cars had the same top rest support “L” shaped arm.) Some photos of your body showing the rear panels would be helpful and should let us know if it had that hole in the side for the top bracket or not.
Because Ford of Canada supplied most of the British Commonwealth countries, there is a one single family owned since new 1922 Canadian touring in New Zealand with a known history. It has the “5 piece-panel” rear section. And it does NOT use that USA styled bracket you are looking for. Why? Because Ford of Canada continued to use the same wooden rear seat riser construction from 1915 into the 1920s. They also continued their “clamp style” top holder that attached to the top of the rear seat panel. See postings by Alex Brown at: Model T Ford Forum: Single Family Cars...? (mtfca.com) And at the posting: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29 ... 1205709920 he shows the wooden rear seat section from inside the car. It does NOT use that support you were asking about. You can also see the top hold down supports.
An example of similar but different introduction of a new part: Ford of Canada introduced the slant windshield and one-man tops in 1920 while Ford USA did not introduce them until September 1922 for the touring and Nov 1922 for the Runabout both for the 1923 model year.
The US slant windshield has a stationary bottom window while the Canadian windshield had both a movable top and bottom window pane.
And I would also recommend that you have some folks verify what the year for your body, engine, transmission etc. are. With a few exceptions like the 1911 Torpedo Roadster and 1911 Open Roadster, just about any 1909-1925 Ford touring body will bolt onto any 1909-1925 chassis. Of course the hoods may not line up with the body, but if you also change out the radiator, hood, hood former when used, and a few other parts so they match the year range of the body – they bolt right on and function great. You shared you were new to “T’s” and that you thought the car was a 1922 or 23. And that may be exactly what it is. But if it is really a 1920 or 1925 or parts from the US and Canada it can make some differences.
Once you are fairly certain the car is a Canadian, US or combination of both, please mention that when you post your questions. And if is a Canadian car, recommend you put in the title “Canadian” or similar word so those folks with Canadian cars will be more likely to look at the posting.
Note, I have seen the later 1921-1925 USA “3-panel” rear section mated to a 1915 USA touring body. It does fit and 99% of the public would never wonder if it was the original rear seat section or not.
If I had more time I would make the post nicer and more ordered. But I figure posting it now like it is -- will be more helpful than posting it sometime next year.
Again, welcome to the forum and our hobby. I’m sure you will be able to sort out the car to meet your desires.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off