MTFCA Forum

I'd appreciate any ideas/thoughts of the make of car/racer this may be? It appears to be on the Michigan State Fairground Track, and it's negative number is one off from a known 1911 race photo at the same event. This is an event where Ford and Frank Kulick raced three racers (three classes) winning in all classes, including a match race for time against the Blitzen Benz.

This photo is mis-labeled as driven by Frank Kulick in one of our Ford history books (I'll try to find it).

Below is an enhanced copy of the photo (original courtesy of the Detroit Public Library, all rights apply):


Colorized:

A couple of "known" photos from the 1911 race at the fairgrounds (courtesy of the Detroit Public Library, all rights apply). First, a Benz driven by McNey:


Next, a Hotchkiss, driven by H. J. Kilpatrick at the same event. The photos of all three appear to be taken from the same spot, looking at the railing, and the railing in the background with uneven posts:

These pictures may have been taken at the same spot but probably not by the same camera. The Benz picture was taken by a camera with a focal plain "curtain" style shutter. That is what causes it to appear to lean forward in the picture. The other two pictures were likely taken by a camera with an iris style shutter.

Paul

Hey there Rob,
I don't recognize the car. Number '3' I think?
Would you like for me to post that picture over on the AACA forum in their early racecars threads?

I keep looking at that photo of car number 3 (?). It looks like that could actually be Frank Kulick driving it? Would he have taken a test run in another car? The car most certainly is NOT any Ford product. But Frank had a certain way of holding his head when driving at speed. That and the general features of his face along with his usual casual attire when racing make me wonder.

Paul, great info regarding camera's. A photographer named Nick Lazarnick (spelling?) took many early Glidden, reliability tour and race/hill climb photos. Some or all of these may be his. I presume he had a helper(s) and maybe had more than one camera?

Wayne, I'll post the makes of racers that were at the race I think this photo was taken. The race dates were October 25th and 26th at the Michigan State Fairgrounds race track. Ford entered three racers in three different classes, a 228 ci (161 to 23 ci class), our 300 ci. (231-300 ci) and the largest Ford Special, the 410 ci in the 301-450 and unlimited class.


Cars listed in the smaller classes were Ford, two Case, Warren Detroit and Abbott Detroit and Flanders. Larger classes included Ford (410 c.i.), Benz, Hotchkiss, and Marmon. The problem is, I don't know if there were more because only the first three places are listed in this article. I'll do more checking to see if there is a more complete list.

The radiator looks like Benz to me, trying to find other pics of same car..

Here are a few more. Burman in Benz #4:


Not a good photo (from the Ford Times), Kulick driving the big Ford for the winning mile time:

There are a lot of similarities between car #3, #2 and the one in this picture, from the official Mercedes Benz archives, it is the 200hp "Record wagen" of 1908 to1910/11. You'll find pictures of it in different guises with less or more bodywork depending on the race it ran in.
Allmost all pictures are of the left side of the car, which makes comparison a bit difficult.
Eventually it would evolve into the famous Blitzen Benz.
Hope this helps..

Shoot, hit wrong button, here's the picture..

Right side with slightly different body and fuel tank

Found some more pics, the unknown car #3 seems to be a somewhat earlier Benz, not the 'Big' 200hp car.
There are two telltale clues; the lower hood of the #3 car and the absence of fuel tank behind the seat, it seems to be a 1908 Benz 120hp .
The #2 car is definitely a 200hp as in the pictures.
Here a pictures of the 1908 racer, the seat is higher than the #3 car but that is the only one i see..

And here is the BIG difference between the two cars, the huge 21liter OHV four banger that powers the 200hp car of 1910/11, a piece of art !
(that is why the hood is taller )

And here's the 1908 car with its private parts out in the open for everyone to see.
Note where the fuel tank is, low down between the rear frame rails, this car has the high seat but other pictures show it with a lower seat or seats and various more or less elaborate bodywork, depending on the kind of race it ran.

Leo,
Great pics, and good ideas. I'm unsure. I've thought it may be the 120 hp Benz (Burman, Kilpatrick, Hearne and others travelled with Moross during this time to these different meets) driven by Eddie Hearne at the 1911 Algonquin Hill Climb and I believe driven by Burman a week later at the Chicago area races. The 120 hp Benz was listed at over 700 cubic inches.

I thought it may even be Burman, driving the smaller Benz (similar appearance in some photos). But the car seems a bit lower with a lower hood. I've thought maybe a Mercedes or Simplex? The Detroit meet was held up due to weather, and Burman and Kulick ended up running exhibitions (with others) the first day the track was somewhat ready, with the main events run the next day. The negative is in the middle (neg number) of several others taken during the races, so I think it was taken at the same time as the races. This is another photo of the track taken at the same time:

Side by side.

The Mercedes Simplex crossed my mind but there was no mention of one in the article you posted so dismissed it, but it seems a good match as the pictures show, low fuel tank and that curious torpedo shaped little oil tank on the side of the left frame rail ;

Her's one at Daytona beach

Are we comparing the number 3 (?) mystery car with the 1908 Benz? Everything is different. The frame is completely different, the 1908 Benz frame is straight, while the mystery car is tapered front and rear, wider in the middle. Rivets along the frame are placed differently. The shift levers are straight on the Benz, kinked back on the mystery car. Even the gate is different. The hanging oil tank is different, and located differently. The mystery car's front axle has a very deep drop under the chassis, the Benz although not clearly shown in this photo does not appear the same. The hood length is noticeably different.

Something strange in the mystery car's photo? Looks like some alteration made hiding the front of the radiator. It is more pronounced in the colorized photo, however does show up also in the B&W?

Wayne, yes , a lot of differences. I think the area around the radiator on #3 is negative damage.

I’ve been looking at Mercedes and Fiat as possibilities. It’s hard to pin down because manager Moross had a lot of drivers and cars at his disposal for these events. I’ll find an advance ad about the races that lists some cars and drivers that I don’t believe made it to run on race day, but may have made practice and exhibition runs.

Here's a tapered framerail for you, 1908 Mercedes at the 1908 French Grand Prix 6&7 july.
It is confusing because today (since the merger in 1926) Mercedes is associated with Benz, but they were different companies then, Benz was Carl Benz's company while Mercedes was the trademark of the Daimler Motoren Geselschaft of Gottlieb Daimler.
I am not exactly sure how the Mercedes Simplex deal was, it seems to be some scheme to get Daimler a foothold on the US market, does that make sense ?
So the car in the picture is a Mercedes as the Simplex name was not attached to it in Europe

How did that happen ? fat fingers...

Some footage of the 1908 French GP with Lautenschlager on Mercedes spinning and winning
If you look closely you can also spot the Benz although the Benz and Mercedes are very similar in appearance, in the white livery which was the national color of the German team

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9grePy-Ljlc

Leo, I'm leaning toward Mercedes. E. A. Moross owned the Blitzen Benz and several other cars, and managed the team of drivers including Bob Burman as they barnstormed across the country attending races. In addition to the Blitzen Benz, originally driven by Barney Oldfield when it arrived in the U.S., was placed in the charge of Burman in 1911, the group competed with what they called a 200 hp Mercedes:

In the first article below, Bob Burman "also drove an exhibition mile in the the Janatzy-Mercedes:"


Below, a top and bottom comparison of the big 1908 Mercedes and the unknown photo, as mentioned before, probably running during or prior to the Michigan State Fairgrounds races near Detroit in September, 1911. The front axles are similar, including the cross strut just in front of the radiator from rail to rail. Both appear to have tapered frame rails, and the driving gear both appear larger than on Benz photos:


The driver may also be Burman, but I'm not sure.

Well that seems to be the answer, the Janatzy Mercedes it is !
Don't you love a good mystery

Leo,
Mercedes, Fiat and Benz certainly had their engineering down. This was a 1908 design, still racing and winning in 1911. Meanwhile the Blitzen Benz, introduced in 1909, held the world straightaway mile record from 1909 - 1919 (upping its own record in 1910 and 11).

Don't you love a good deep rabbithole; while sleuthing on the interwebs after Camille Jenatzy and his Mercedes, i came across this article on the Hemmings site on Joe Jagersberger, an early associate of Jenatzy, one might think this leads way OT, but read the article and it turns out that it is all coming full circle and TOTALY ON TOPIC

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/articl ... gersberger

Ha, it starts and ends with a T !

Hi,

Louis Zborowski was part on the same area. Interesting indeed. He was an early patron of Aston Martin,In the 1923 Indianapolis 500 Zborowski drove a Bugatti. He drove in the 1923 Italian Grand Prix at Monza in a car designed by American engineer Harry Arminius Miller, the single-seat "American Miller 122".

Zborowski joined the Mercedes team in 1924 but died in one of their cars, after hitting a tree during the Italian Grand Prix at Monza. He was just 29 years old.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Zborowski

Leo, Jaggersburger certainly had a front row seat to motor racing from the beginning until he passed in 1948. He's crossed my radar a few times due to racing on the same tracks, and a few times against Frank Kulick with his Fords.

Arguably Fords greatest racing event may be the late September races held at the Michigan State Fairgrounds in 1911. The photo below is one of only two I've found of the Ford 231-300 cu. in. racer (the motor we own). In it, Jaggersburger driving his Case is in hot pursuit. Kulick won both five mile events that day, driving his 228 cu. in. and 300 cu. in. racers. These wins were overshadowed by his win with the largest Ford Special (410 c.i.) beating the Blitzen Benz in a timed match race:


Detroit News photo, Kulick leading Jaggersburger:
Below, photos from "Motor Age" of Kulick and Jaggersburger:


Below, Kulick at the start line aboard the smaller Ford Special 228 c.i.. This is one of the few races we have race day photos of all three Ford racers. In this photo the last two exhaust ports are visible. I'm not sure if the exhaust is obscuring the front two ports, or if the front two exit what looks like a larger hole in the hood just behind the tie down strap.

Mario, just saw your post. I've seen the "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" racer before, but didn't know of it's history. Thank you for posting,


The third of the three racers from the Detroit event. This is a photo of the "big" Ford on it's timed one mile run in which it bested the Blitzen Benz and Kilpatrick's 200 hp Hotchkiss:

Here's a better photo of Jagersberger in the Case, the car he's chasing the Ford Special with in the Detroit Journal picture :

Good pic Leo. Here's another, courtesy of the Detroit Library digital collection (I've now found three spellings for Joe...... I'm going with yours from now on..... )

Footage of this years SF Edge Trophy race round 2, some serious racing with one of the last remaining 200hp Benz racers !
It is owned by the Sinsheim Technik Museum in Germany, who believe in running their stuff !
Gives a great idea how these machines sounded when running in anger, don't mind the Brits and their understated commentary, enjoy ! (sorry no T's)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dbk__8VN1T0&t=922s



All rights belong to the Goodwood Racetrack people

And here's some footage of the last surviving 1909 140hp Mercedes in a hill climb in England three years back !

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_aRTFGHYhKU

Leo, great videos! Thank you for posting. I’d sure like to see our Ford Special on those courses. Even better, the big 410 c.i. Ford Special at THF would be remarkable to see against these racers. The only time the Blitzen Benz and Ford Special met, the Ford won.

I think a light chassis Ford would handle the curves and switchbacks well against these (usually) heavier peers.

How is this for spelling?

Kaiser wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:47 am

And here's some footage of the last surviving 1909 140hp Mercedes in a hill climb in England three years back !

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_aRTFGHYhKU

Scaring me!!!!!!

While looking at a stash of old photos from the Detroit area, I found this racer crash picture. Is it one of Henry's race cars ? Les

Les,
Yes, it's Arrow (999's mate) after wrecking at the Milwaukee Fairgrounds in the fall of 1903. Frank Day, driving, was inexperienced and died while racing 999 driven by Ed Huff. Tom Cooper, who owned both racers, was away at the time. Cooper sent the racer to Henry Ford in Detroit, who rebuilt the it and set the world one mile speed record in early 1904 on Lake St. Clair. Another pic of the wrecked racer as it's being loaded:

In color:

Les, I found this site with what appears to be an accurate description of events involving the accident of Arrow and death of driver Frank Day.
Link:
http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/focus ... =ct&n=2903

Thank you Rob for the info. That was the only racer picture in the bunch. Les

Re: the Blitzen Benz, found this; posted on youtube in february 2009, no further info but is clearly a 200hp Benz engine running on some kind of pallet/teststand, i see a large radiator jury rigged to it.
It took some nerve to start that monster, the racket must have been incredible !

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=roy14elzuV8