MTFCA Forum

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:00 pm**

A guy in our club said he recommends adding about 1 quart of diesel fuel to the gas tank at fill up. He said it would help give a nominal boost in compression. Said he does every single fill up. Is there any truth to that?

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:07 pm**

If this information is from a trusted member of your club, why don't you go through the procedure and give us your results.

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:15 pm**

Moxie26 wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:07 pm
If this information is from a trusted member of your club, why don't you go through the procedure and give us your results.

I don't feel like taking a needless risk. "Trust, but verify"

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:42 pm**

A fellow from New Mexico drove his '32 Studebaker to and from several VMCCA Tours adding diesel to his gas. The car ran well but he couldn't convince others to do it. That would have been in the '70s. That sounds like the same proportions. The rear of the car was a bit sooty.
Rich

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:21 pm**

Many years ago (about 1951) I filled up a Model A with diesel. Drove from Los Angeles to San Bernardino and back. Along the way, I had to change the spark plugs because they fouled. I made a big cloud of smoke. Then I got pulled over by a deputy sheriff who asked what I was burning, and I told him. He gave me a warning that if he saw the car smoking like that, he would cite me for making polution. Another thing happened. That was the only time I gained more oil in the crankcase than when I started.
I have burnt gas only from that time forward.
Norm

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:12 pm**

Compression is a simple volumetric ratio based on fixed mechanical aspects of an engine. How would adding a different fuel change these mechanical aspects?

Advice comes in two forms, and this is not the one you want to follow.

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:18 pm**

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:12 pm
Compression is a simple volumetric ratio based on fixed mechanical aspects of an engine. How would adding a different fuel change these mechanical aspects?

Advice comes in two forms, and this is not the one you want to follow.

Thanks! That's why I thought I'd ask here before trying it.

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:27 pm**

Diesel has a very low octane equivalency and it will not burn well, if at all, in low compression engines. You can get down the road with it, maybe,, if you add some gasoline, but you'll wind up with carbon issues, rapid piston/ring wear, and half-burned diesel will accumulate in your crankcase and lead to bearing and camshaft problems. You need around 17 to 23 to 1 compression to burn diesel in a piston engine. Forced induction helps a lot. Diesel will not vaporize properly in a carburetor, and fuel injection systems designed for gasoline will not function correctly on diesel. Gasoline engines won't stand up to the forces of diesel combustion for long, either. Carbureted engines with spark ignition can't control diesel combustion timing, force, or flame propagation, and missing, firing out of time, and detonation result. It's difficult to throttle-govern a diesel engine, if it's possible at all. When you close the throttle, manifold vacuum goes way up and effective compression goes way down. That will kill the engine, often as not. Proper diesel engines have very high compression ratios, robust construction, high pressure atomizing fuel injection into the combustion chamber, and no throttle.

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:42 pm**

Oy Gevalt.

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:52 pm**

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:27 pm
Diesel has a very low octane equivalency and it will not burn well, if at all, in low compression engines. You can get down the road with it, maybe,, if you add some gasoline, but you'll wind up with carbon issues, rapid piston/ring wear, and half-burned diesel will accumulate in your crankcase and lead to bearing and camshaft problems. You need around 17 to 23 to 1 compression to burn diesel in a piston engine. Forced induction helps a lot. Diesel will not vaporize properly in a carburetor, and fuel injection systems designed for gasoline will not function correctly on diesel. Gasoline engines won't stand up to the forces of diesel combustion for long, either. Carbureted engines with spark ignition can't control diesel combustion timing, force, or flame propagation, and missing, firing out of time, and detonation result. It's difficult to throttle-govern a diesel engine, if it's possible at all. When you close the throttle, manifold vacuum goes way up and effective compression goes way down. That will kill the engine, often as not. Proper diesel engines have very high compression ratios, robust construction, high pressure atomizing fuel injection into the combustion chamber, and no throttle.

Thank you! That explains it really well.

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:58 pm**

Well, at least Diesel is better than MMO!

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:14 pm**

I don't claim to be a chemist, but as I see it the proportion of diesel to gasoline proposed here is quite low.

The Model T engine is a very early design with little additional lubrication, it has a very low compression ratio. As such I'd tend view a little light oil in the gasoline mix as a kind of 'upper cylinder lubricant' that is unlikely to have any negative effect on the engine, and it could have a positive effect.

Remember that fuel in the early days was very poor quality, and the T will run on kerosine (albeit it needs a few adjustments for pure kero). I once ran a 7:1 comp ratio Land Rover on a 50/50 Kerosine/Gasoline mix for circa 10,000 miles with no appreciable issue (reason: pump kero was much cheaper at the time). Given that I'd not expect any issue in this instance where both the compression ratio and fuel mix is much less again (even though it's diesel vs kerosine).

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:13 pm**

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:12 pm
Compression is a simple volumetric ratio based on fixed mechanical aspects of an engine. How would adding a different fuel change these mechanical aspects?

Advice comes in two forms, and this is not the one you want to follow.

There are at least two (slightly) different meanings of “compression”. One is the mathematical ratio of cylinder volumes at the bottom and top of the stroke. Another is the reading on a gauge for the purpose determining cylinder health.My guess is that he had blow-by past the rings, and the diesel fuel helped with that, therefore “boosting compression”.

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:39 pm**

Miles

I understand what you're saying. I don't profess to know if I am in error in my understanding of the terminology the adviser was using, but insofar as he used it every time on his T, I don't see how diesel in the combustion chamber seals the rings better than oil does in the crankcase. If it was to be used on a 1 time basis to "clean" the ring grooves freeing up the rings to provide better compression, then I could much better understand that line of thinking, though I still wouldn't personally do it.

Vehicles taken out of long storage frequently improve performance as they are used again, with rings freeing up after a nominal amount of miles and lubricant breaking down some of the sludge built up in the ring grooves. I've experienced this myself. Still, there is nothing about it that could convince me to run a 2-3% mixture of diesel fuel in my gas tank as a regular course of action.

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:49 pm**

Simple.., if you want JP-8 jet fuel (90 % kerosene 10% gasoline) go for it, but use it in a jet. Diesels are very, very high compression. Diesel fuel vs kerosene are like apples and oranges. Different flavor and shapes!

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:52 pm**

Diesel is not very lubricious, and is even less so when diluted with gasoline. If I wanted to use an upper cylinder lubricant/penetrant, which can definitely be effective in limbering up rings and valves in engines that have sat a long time, I'd use MMO or Type F ATF or Type F ATF with some Sea Foam mixed in. I wouldn't use more than 2 ounces per gallon of gasoline. A pint or two of MMO in the crankcase can help free gummy rings and valves. I've found it very effective for freeing up old sludgey hydraulic lifters. Acetone and ATF is a good penetrant, but I'd avoid mixing it with fuel or using it in the crankcase. It can attack rubber seals and I think it makes a lot of soot when it burns. Diesel certainly does.

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:54 pm**

Charlie B in N.J. wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:42 pm
Oh Gevalt.

Charlie, you're mixing languages. German would be "Oh, gewalt" and Yiddish would be "Oy, gevalt." I don't think I have ever heard that used in German, but in Yiddish..... oy, gevalt!

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:58 pm**

If you have problems with molasses in your fuel system, adding 70 % rubbing alcohol to the gas tank can remove it.

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:49 pm**

I tend to agree with Pat, but have always used two-stroke oil as an upper-cyl lubricant here. That is to say, when something called 'Redex' wasn't available, or was too expensive

This Feb 1931 short article in 'Motorsport' is interesting, if not amusing:

UPPER CYLINDER LUBRICATION.

The problem of upper cylinder lubrication has long engaged the attention of technical experts, but hitherto none of the bigger national oil companies has “officially approved” it— still less evolved an oil specifically designed for this purpose, and capable of being used on any make of car without structural alterations.

C. C. Wakefield and Co., however, have now introduced a new grade of oil known as ” Castrollo,” specially blended for this purpose. No special fitment is required and the cost per mile is negligible. Effective lubrication of the moving surfaces at the top of the cylinder is obviously very desirable in any car, however old, and it is still more important when running in a new car. Furthermore, where there is no risk of these parts becoming dry, the car can be run at higher speeds in perfect safety.

” Castrollo ” is sold in two sizes—the quart tin, containing sufficient oil to treat 160 gallons of petrol, casting only 5s. 64., and the pint tin selling at 3s.

Original page(s) may be seen here: https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arch ... ubrication

Posted: **Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:02 am**

Marvel Mystery Oil
Norm

Posted: **Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:53 am**

With all the discussion about modern gas and advocates for higher octane, why choose a method to lower the fuels octane rating.

Perhaps as an experiment to see what it was like back then to drive a Model T with the low grade fuel of the era. But we need to remember that back then kerosene was more accessible than gasoline and was a fuel option http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1404251165
Nick Stanley on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 - 10:24 pm:
This past year I acquired a kerosene conversion for a Ford from California. It is NOS near as I can tell, and I plan on putting it on my 1918 TT to evaluate its performance.
The conversion was made by the Kerosene Motor Co., of Peoria, Ill., and is called the KMC Transformer. It was apparently developed, and patented, by George McFarland. Stamped on the back of the manifold is "PAT 12-11-17". This date corresponds to US patent no. 1249647. The patent can be found at http://www.google.com/patents/US1249647 .
The kit as I received it, included a KMC manifold, dual fuel carburetor, gasoline starting tank, a bit of 1/4" copper line, an old Victor head gasket, and a head shim of .112" thick carbon steel. This shim was presumably included to decrease the compression ratio.

Posted: **Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:45 am**

I will assume you are talking about your model T. In a modern car diesel will keep your ECM confused. If you are looking for a top end lubrigant in your T try synthetic Castor oil. It's the only oil I use for two stroke fuel, it works great as a fuel preservative. Used to use it in two stroke kart racing engines. 3-4 Oz. in a full tank seems to work well and the sweet smell will keep people quessing.

Otherwise MMO works . As far as using diesel the ultra low sulfer diesel has a low luberisity factor. So low that I poor a quart of motor oil in 5 gal. of diesel for my old M-F to lube the injection pump. I have had two people tell me the ULS fuel trashed there older tractors? Don't know they where "old tractors"?
Craig.

Posted: **Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:55 am**

Kerosene has most of the disadvantages of diesel. People used to try to use it for motor fuel because it was plentiful and cheap. Some success was had using it in farm tractors and stationary applications. It just isn't suited for most road car service. A tractor or stationary engine that routinely ran for long periods under load once started would be the best candidate for kerosene operation. They usually started on gasoline. Even the best systems required proper handling by the operator and often had problems with oil dilution, rapid ring and upper cylinder wear, carbon deposition, and detonation as well as cold starting and cold weather issues. Water injection was used in some instances to reduce detonation and carbon deposits. A farmer or mechanic who understood how to use one of the kerosene conversion setups on a Ford T and understood the drawbacks to using it could probably get good results, within limits. Most people would not, and short trip passenger car service would be the least practical way to use a kersosene setup.

Posted: **Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:27 am**

Thanks Dlodge. It was a typo and should have been "Oy" from the start. Just expressing the constant amazement I get when folks have the burning desire to experiment with folk lore oils and coolants on their T's. I have to admit I really get a kick out of it especially because we NEVER hear about any failures!

Posted: **Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:32 am**

Mark Nunn wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:58 pm
Well, at least Diesel is better than MMO!

Not if you are using it to lubricate an air wrench!

Posted: **Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:18 pm**

Marvel Mystery Oil probably deserves to be the laughingstock of this forum from rather fantastic claims made years ago in their advertising. Nevertheless, it is a useful light oil as John points out, and it smells good !!.

Posted: **Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:59 pm**

It looks good and smells pretty... and it does have practical uses. In my long expericence running junk machinery, there is no miracle in a bottle, but MMO and STP do have their uses, along with B-12 Chemtool and similar products. Marvel Mystery Oil used to be quite useful back when only straight grade, non-detergent motor oils of uncertain quality were available. Quality modern motor oils already have the properties that MMO, used correctly, could add to plain oil. Upper cylinder lubrication seems to be well taken care of in most engines built in the last 70 years or so. That was not always the case, especially under adverse conditions.

Posted: **Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:15 pm**

I use MMO in my 54 Ford NAA tractor to keep the valves from sticking and it does work for me. I don’t get paranoid about the name and the idea that’s it’s not any good like some folks do.
If it works it works. Have fun.

Posted: **Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:53 pm**

Craig, if synthetic castor oil makes the same smell as the real stuff, it would be worth using just for the smell. It is redolent of early racing cars on speedway tracks, something that brings back delightful memories.

Allan from down under.

Posted: **Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:10 am**

Hi Allan,
Yes it does, not as strong as Blenzal but close. I run it in my weed eaters also. I can tell in 2 seconds if I but the right fuel in them. It brings back memories of names like OSSA, CZ, Bulltaco, Jawa & Maico. And Speedway racing damn now you got my memory going!.
Thanks for the trip through memory lane.
Craig.

Posted: **Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:52 am**

I may be slammed about this.
Some success is correct if you amplify that fact about using Kerosene ten fold.
Thousands upon thousands of engines and tractors were built to use cheaper Kerosene as a main fuel. AFTER starting on gasoline.
Some engines do not care if you use Kerosene or even Diesel AFTER warming on gas. I have one.
There are rules of course. Please gentlemen, Norm has done it. He knows. I also know. It can work. With caveats.
Perhaps if you kept the engine hotter Norm, it may have smoked less. Not the goal at that time huh? Point A to point B.

Almost all of the OT's out here have two compartment fuel tanks. Gas start, warm, switch over to cheaper fuels.
Instead of bashing, I ask. Why didn't the automobile industry?
FAR more users that would not be able to wrap their head around the starting/running/shutting down and restarting?
Perhaps. Not trolling guys. Simply stating facts and asking.

Posted: **Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:09 am**

In the mid 1960's I was running a 1930 Model A as everyday transport. Number 4 piston had 23 thou clearance, the others had about 8 to 10 thou. At the time it was the only engine that I could get, so I had to use it. I found that by adding a quart of diesel to every 4 gallons of petrol, the knock was reduced to almost nil and the engine behaved very well indeed. I felt that the diesel as upper cylinder lubricant was very effective.
I must admit that at a petrol station, I would get very funny looks from the attendant when I asked for the diesel to into the fuel tank.
Incidentally I was the 25th owner of the car according to the registration papers, and it was originally a taxi cab in the capital city. I managed to put about 25,000 miles on it in a bit over 12 months, then I found a very nice 1928 Tudor Model A so bought that.

Posted: **Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:59 am**

Using kerosene in a passenger car had too many disadvantages for most users. As pointed out above, it can be used in some applications, but gasoline, if available, is preferable. It's one thing to fire up a tractor and go plow all day on kerosene, and quite another to fire up a family car on kerosene on a cold morning to run the kids to school or make several stops around town. A person who has an engine equipped to use kerosene who knows how to use it can get by with it and save some money, IF they are using a lot of fuel on a long duty cycle basis. But that's not a typical passenger car situation. If you think diesel fuel has good lubricating qualities, put it in your crankcase.

Posted: **Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:22 pm**

Rich Bingham wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:18 pm
Marvel Mystery Oil probably deserves to be the laughingstock of this forum from rather fantastic claims made years ago in their advertising. Nevertheless, it is a useful light oil as John points out, and it smells good !!.

Looks snazzy too!

Posted: **Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:09 am**

An inverse oiler might benefit a Fordson tractor that pulled a plow all day, or any engine running hard on kerosene fuel. An antique passenger car in normal service usually gets plenty of oil to the upper cylinder area, if not too much.

Posted: **Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:17 pm**

Adolph Diesel was the inventor of the oil engine as it was known, fuel oil used was available in several grades with graduated lower flash points. The various grades were priced accordingly from the lowest price with the highest flash point to the highest price with the lowest flashpoint. Except for the lowest flash point oil frequently referred to as kerosene all the other grades fall in the category of COMBUSTIBLE LIQUIDS only the kerosene grade falls within the FLAMMABLE LIQUID grade. Kerosene has several names and uses, Diesel, Jet fuel, Coal oil, Insect spray, Lamp oil, Stove oil, Furnace oil, Heating fuel, to name some. Diesel is the name of the inventor and fuel oil is the name of the fuel, that is available in several grades, names and uses.

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