Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

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Mikey1968
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Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by Mikey1968 » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:54 pm

Hello all,
Finally got time to bleed the new Sure Stop Brakes. I have a few 1960s - 1980s brake conversions and lots of brake maintenance experience over the years on different cars. Couple questions:

First the easy one.....to check the factory service brake in the transmission, I left the pin off the master cylinder. With the back jacked up I had wife push brake while I tried to spin the wheel. I could turn the wheel with full brake pedal down....brake band out of adjustment or am I missing something?

Second question.....bled the master cylinder before installing. All hooked up with fluid in remote reservoir. Used old fashioned tried and true method with wife....open bleeder, pedal down, close, pedal up with hose in 1" fluid in glass jar. Started with passenger side....after tons of pumping, no fluid ever came out of caliper and reservoir level never changed. Should cap remain off on reservoir (I don't think that would matter)? I kept lid on...maybe my error. Does this master cylinder move so little fluid per stroke I should expect tons of bleeding cycles? Do I need to rebleed the master cylinder after installation? Worth fiddling with a vacuum bleeder (I have a compressor)? Will the 4 oz reservoir empty with a few pumps?

I don't have a feel for this system. Is it more finicky than the more modern systems I've worked on over the years?

Please help an old shade tree mechanic with this one. Most of my experience are classic Fords and some Hondas for comparison.
Thanks,
Mike


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Re: Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by Dan McEachern » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:39 pm

As a start, loosen a brake line at a caliper and try to pump the master cylinder until you get some fluid coming out- repeat on other side, tighten the lines and just pump the master cylinder and try to develop some pressure, then proceed with bleeding. Until you get most air out, bag the bottle and close the bleeder while holding the pedal down after pumping. You might have a bad master cyl but...…….. Good luck. I'm thinking your lines are full of air at this point.


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Re: Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by George Hand » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:56 pm

I am not familiar with the disc brake conversions & the location of the bleeder screws. These must use a stock caliper to some vehicle, what I am trying indicate is that the Bleeder needs to be at the High Point of the caliper even if it is necessary to have the caliper free of the mounting bracket. George

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Re: Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:09 pm

Get a glass jar, fill a third up with clean new brake fluid. Install a clear tubing if available on the bleeder screws and submerge into the brake fluid on both sides at the same time preferably. Fill master cylinder, open both bleeder screws at least a half turn out. be patient and watch for bubbles. When they quit, close bleeder screws and bleed farthest away like a regular brake system

Wildwood trailer disc brakes with calibers, master cylinders were for "Off Road Use Only" a few years back. I think in 30 years..., no replacement parts will be available at current market trends. Stock up on parts or loose out! I believe they are non rebuildable units.

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Re: Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by speedytinc » Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:14 pm

This brake system seems to have hi areas that make it tough to get right. A buddy put this system on & had to pump before using @ each stop. A warped rotor, total brake loss & slamming into another T. You need the answer from a guy that figured it out & made it work. If one of you has done it on this specific system, so stating would be important. The normal hydraulic bleeding methods dont seem to work. I think the key was bleeding @ all the line joints individually. I refused to mess with it. Certainly the manufacture has a procedure that will work?

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Bill Robinson
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Re: Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by Bill Robinson » Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:29 pm

A long-time member of our club, who is also an airplane technician wrote this tech article for our newsletter. The airplane folks start at the BOTTOM and their way work up. Myself, and other club members have tried it- and it works. It's fast, easy, and one person can do it.
https://tennesseets.weebly.com/uploads/ ... _and_2.pdf

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Re: Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by paddy1998 » Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:51 pm

There are as many opinions on brake bleeding methods as there are on oil . . .

For some reason I had a tough time with the initial bleed on the Sure-Stop kit, and this was not my first rodeo with bleeding a new brake system from dry.

Finally I just opened the lower bleeder screws with tubing attached going into a catch jar and left them to gravity bleed overnight, about 6 hours or so.

By the next morning the lines were primed and I was able to quickly perform a regular bleed by closing the lower bleed screws and then bleeding the air out of the top bleed screws.

As far as setting the brake band in the transmission, I did that by attaching the master cylinder dry and then adjusting the band to grab when the piston is fully pushed in the master cylinder (dry). Then remove the master cylinder and bench bleed.

Once the hydraulic system is bled it will take very little pressure to apply the brakes and the brake band will not grab (or drag) unless there's a total loss of hydraulic pressure.

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Oldav8tor
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Re: Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by Oldav8tor » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:47 am

I haven’t bled my disc brakes yet but figured I’d do like Bill R suggests. I’ve used that technique on aircraft a number of times with success. I use a squirt can of fluid and a piece of plastic hose over the bleeder and fill from the bottom.
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Re: Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by Emeraude » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:37 am

When I installed my sure stop brakes I used the aircraft method, Usenet a pump can a a a short plastic line and pumping from the bottom up. Took about 15 minutes and over 4 years never had to touch them.

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Re: Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by AndyClary » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:47 am

As everyone has said, standard bleeding practices will get the job done. Since you didn’t get any fluid or use any fluid from the reservoir you need to check the adjustment on the master cylinder pushrod. If you’re not getting full stroke the piston may not be uncovering the fluid port from the reservoir. In that case your just pushing the same fluid back and forth without the additional fluid to build pressure.

Andy


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Re: Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by Mikey1968 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:11 am

Thanks for all the replies!!!

Boy the two methods sound good.....I like the reverse pressure bleed system as it makes it a one person job. I also like the excuse of a new tool. With that said, will this method work on the more modern cars? The Wilwood has a convenient master cylinder bleeder not typically found on the 60s-90s cars so would one end up pushing air into the master cylinder? I recently replaced a rear wheel cylinder on my 74 Bronco and wonder if the reverse bleed method would have worked. We have 9 cars and 2 atvs so going to a one person bleeding would be great.

With both rear wheels of the T off the ground, brake pedal disconnected from master cylinder and pedal pushed full forward, the service brake should not allow me to rotate either rear wheel, right?

On the gravity feed method, did it drain your 4 oz reservoir requiring a master cylinder bleed?

Thanks all!
Mike

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Re: Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by jsaylor » Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:53 am

Mike, With both wheels off the ground and the service brake applied, when you rotate one wheel the other will rotate opposite due to the differential action. Only jack one wheel. apply the brake. It should not rotate.

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Re: Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by jsaylor » Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:06 pm

For bleeding on my 27 Tudor, I left the plastic plug in the master cylinder, disconnected the link to the brake pedal. I used a long bar to push the plunger all the way in. Once no more air, I removed he plug, attached the line and used a vacuum bleeder starting on the right side caliper. Then when my son had a day off he came over and had him operate the brakes as I rechecked each caliper. Got a couple of more bubbles out. We did jack the rear up to get the calipers higher. The biggest problem I had was connecting to the small bleed valves on the calipers. They are so small that it was difficult to get a hose to stay on them. I have driven the car about 200 miles and have had no problems.
Also, the 27 body sits lower to the frame so I had to use my router to cut a recess into the under side of the floor board to clear the master cylinder hose to the reservoir.


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Mikey1968
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Re: Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by Mikey1968 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:08 pm

I was kinda thinking that may be the case. I wanted to test the service brake while the back was still on jack stands. My shade tree mechanics are based on 60s-90s cars. :)

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Re: Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by paddy1998 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:38 pm

Mikey1968 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:11 am
Thanks for all the replies

On the gravity feed method, did it drain your 4 oz reservoir requiring a master cylinder bleed?

Thanks all!
Mike
No, but I only left it alone for 5 or 6 hours. If you leave it like that all day and night it probably would. It just gets SOME fluid in the lines and makes the regular bleed much easier than trying to pump fluid all the way down from the master cylinder.

For normal one-man brake bleeding I just love Russell Speed Bleeders http://russellperformance.com/mc/speed-bleeders/


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Mikey1968
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Re: Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by Mikey1968 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:41 pm

I tried those speed bleeders on the 68 Cougar and they leaked like all get out so I immediately chunked em.


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Mikey1968
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Re: Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by Mikey1968 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:48 pm

Think I'll try the reverse bleed method using this: https://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Pistol-Oil ... =UTF8&th=1

It's cheap and I want to try something I've never tried before. I also don't have extra 1/4" tubing......biggest reason....try not to annoy the wife! :lol:
If I can learn a way to bleed with one person, I'd be a happy camper. Tried speed bleeders and Mighty Vac years ago.....forgeddaboutit!

Now, when can I find time for next attempt! Ugh!

Standby for results.

Mike


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Mikey1968
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Re: Disk Brake Bleeding Questions

Post by Mikey1968 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:31 pm

OK, so I did the reverse pressure bleed, then a week later, the old fashioned pump the pedal method to finalize the bleeding process. The pressure bleed got most air out and the pump got the last little bit out. So it's complete, I think. Now, when will I get to do a test drive? I wouldn't hold my breath....I rotate my time between 9 cars, all but 3 are toys needing attention as well! Often the 3 daily drivers need attention to pass state inspection.

Can't wait to retire so I can get caught up!

Thanks all for the help!

Mike

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