Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
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Topic author - Posts: 512
- Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:18 pm
- First Name: Steve
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Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
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Hello fellow Model T-ers,
I am preparing my 1911 Touring car for paint (dark dark midnight blue).
Would any of you know of a “fix” to help shore up the exposed (delaminating) body plywood end-grain around the rear doors?
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Hello fellow Model T-ers,
I am preparing my 1911 Touring car for paint (dark dark midnight blue).
Would any of you know of a “fix” to help shore up the exposed (delaminating) body plywood end-grain around the rear doors?
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Re: Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
The best thing I know of is to pack some sanding dust into the cracks and holes then apply some super glue over the top, it will wick down into the sanding dust (you can use a clamp to tighten up the joint)
This repair will be stronger than the wood itself.
This repair will be stronger than the wood itself.
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Re: Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
Steve,
Moisture absorbs readily into wood, especially end-grain. The wood expands with moisture. Seasonal swelling and shrinking eventually causes the laminations to split. That's what we are seeing in your car. Unless you really seal the end grain, the failures will continue to happen if you just glue the laminations back together. The best repair is to glue and seal the laminations with an epoxy adhesive. In particular, the epoxy should be one that is formulated for some flexibility.
I have had a good deal of success with the West brand of epoxies manufactured by Gougeon Brothers, Inc. Best of all, the manufacturer maintains a toll-free help line where you can talk to a Technical Advisor. You will not be forwarded to a bunch of guys in a room in India. These are real people, with hands-on experience. The Advisor will be able to give you the best advice after seeing your excellent pictures. Tell him you have pictures and can email them.
Excerpt from the West home page:
"Technical Advisors at Gougeon Brothers, Inc. are available to answer your questions about WEST SYSTEM® Epoxy Products and help you with your project. The fastest way to get an answer from us is to call and ask to speak to our Technical Advisors toll-free within the United States at 866-937-8797, Monday to Friday, 9:00 am to 5:00 pm ET. From outside the U.S.A, call 1-989-684-7286. Our experienced, full-time Tech Staff is here to help with your questions about epoxy."
Moisture absorbs readily into wood, especially end-grain. The wood expands with moisture. Seasonal swelling and shrinking eventually causes the laminations to split. That's what we are seeing in your car. Unless you really seal the end grain, the failures will continue to happen if you just glue the laminations back together. The best repair is to glue and seal the laminations with an epoxy adhesive. In particular, the epoxy should be one that is formulated for some flexibility.
I have had a good deal of success with the West brand of epoxies manufactured by Gougeon Brothers, Inc. Best of all, the manufacturer maintains a toll-free help line where you can talk to a Technical Advisor. You will not be forwarded to a bunch of guys in a room in India. These are real people, with hands-on experience. The Advisor will be able to give you the best advice after seeing your excellent pictures. Tell him you have pictures and can email them.
Excerpt from the West home page:
"Technical Advisors at Gougeon Brothers, Inc. are available to answer your questions about WEST SYSTEM® Epoxy Products and help you with your project. The fastest way to get an answer from us is to call and ask to speak to our Technical Advisors toll-free within the United States at 866-937-8797, Monday to Friday, 9:00 am to 5:00 pm ET. From outside the U.S.A, call 1-989-684-7286. Our experienced, full-time Tech Staff is here to help with your questions about epoxy."
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Re: Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
Kwik poly was a great product. I don't know if is available today. I think the West product might be close to the same.
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Re: Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
Titebond makes a great exterior yellow wood glue (green label). First, blow off the areas with a compressed air nozzle to get any dirt out of the cracks. Where there are any missing plywood layers, cut some from some plywood that is the same thickness as the missing layer and stick the piece into the gap and trim to size. Squirt some Titebond exterior wood glue on the delaminated areas and press the glue in with your finger until the glue is all the way to the bottom of the crack. You may have to spread the delaminated layers open with razor knife blades to make a wide enough gap for the glue to be pressed into. Blowing it deep into the crack with compressed air works very well too. When the glue has been applied deep into the areas, take a wood clamp and squeeze the delaminated areas closed. Have a damp rag ready to wipe up any that squeezes out, especially be sure to get any glue off of the wood clamp so as not to glue the wood clamp to the plywood. Let it stand for several days until you are sure the glue has cured. This is a permanent repair. Jim Patrick
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Re: Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
Not sure from the pictures but it looks like laminated strips with the grain oriented the same way, not really plywood, perhaps a modern work around to steaming and bending a single strip of wood or gluing up solid sections to make a curved strip. There are things you can do to try to keep it from getting worse, but that wood isn't sound and treating the edges will not make it so. If you glue the edges of the separated pieces, they may or may not hold, but the other laminations are probably going to let loose over the next few years. For a quality repair, replacing the wood with new would give the long term solution. Treating the cracks will likely only be a temporary fix.
Last edited by Humblej on Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
I’d use MIN-WAX Wood Hardner It will be sucked up into the wood fibers clamp if needed and sand. It’s a penetrating sealant. There are similar products as well
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
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Mick Jagger
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Re: Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
I've used Quik-Poly on such a situation before with great results. I just don't know if you can still get it.
T'ake care,
David Dewey
David Dewey
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Re: Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
According to a post at Fordbarn Qwik Poly shut down in early 2019. A search of that business address in MO indicates business is 'permanently closed'. jb
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Re: Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
My choice would be to strip paint….check for poke…use a pour on ‘consolidant’ (changes open cellulose of the wood to plastic) …then specific filler. Material (Bondo like, but from same maker as the other stuff…and try to sand to finish size at 1/2 the suggested wait time.
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Re: Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
I doubt it is plywood as plywood with alternating layers of uniform thickness layers didn’t become widely available until WWI. So it is reasonable to assume the body is not original. Glues prior to 1943 tended to fail when exposed to dampness.
By The best modern solution to your problem is the West system of two part epoxy. It will seal the end grain, adds some strength and takes paint very easily. The only difficulty is prior to drying it tends to run. When I repaired the rear panel on the 1909 body, I had to stand it on the firewall.
By The best modern solution to your problem is the West system of two part epoxy. It will seal the end grain, adds some strength and takes paint very easily. The only difficulty is prior to drying it tends to run. When I repaired the rear panel on the 1909 body, I had to stand it on the firewall.
Tony Bowker
La Mesa, California
1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.
La Mesa, California
1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.
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Re: Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
Is this a a Ray Wells body?
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Re: Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
While I haven’t seen the body, following conversations with Steve, I believe it is not an original 1911 body, so it probably a modern reproduction. Rays work is usually first class and generally follows the techniques used on original bodies. It don’t think he uses laminations to get the necessary curvatures but uses either solid wood or steam bending. JMHO
Tony Bowker
La Mesa, California
1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.
La Mesa, California
1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.
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Topic author - Posts: 512
- Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:18 pm
- First Name: Steve
- Last Name: California
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1911 Touring, 1912 Warren Speedster
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- MTFCA Number: 50392
Re: Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
Thank you Mr. Dick Fisher,otrcman wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:37 pmSteve,
Moisture absorbs readily into wood, especially end-grain. The wood expands with moisture. Seasonal swelling and shrinking eventually causes the laminations to split. That's what we are seeing in your car. Unless you really seal the end grain, the failures will continue to happen if you just glue the laminations back together. The best repair is to glue and seal the laminations with an epoxy adhesive. In particular, the epoxy should be one that is formulated for some flexibility.
I have had a good deal of success with the West brand of epoxies manufactured by Gougeon Brothers, Inc. Best of all, the manufacturer maintains a toll-free help line where you can talk to a Technical Advisor. You will not be forwarded to a bunch of guys in a room in India. These are real people, with hands-on experience. The Advisor will be able to give you the best advice after seeing your excellent pictures. Tell him you have pictures and can email them.
Excerpt from the West home page:
"Technical Advisors at Gougeon Brothers, Inc. are available to answer your questions about WEST SYSTEM® Epoxy Products and help you with your project. The fastest way to get an answer from us is to call and ask to speak to our Technical Advisors toll-free within the United States at 866-937-8797, Monday to Friday, 9:00 am to 5:00 pm ET. From outside the U.S.A, call 1-989-684-7286. Our experienced, full-time Tech Staff is here to help with your questions about epoxy."
As you suggested, I called Greg in the technical department and he steered me towards their most viscous product, resin 105 with Hardner 206, mixed in a “mini pump” and injected into the delamination out of a small syringe.
I have confidence in this plan.
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Re: Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
You can make the resin 105 and hardener 206 mixture go deeper into the wood by blowing it with a nozzle using compressed air. And then clamping with a double screw wood clamp. Be sure to replace any missing pieces or the areas where pieces are missing will be indented or compressed more than the surrounding areas where no pieces are missing. Jim Patrick
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Re: Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
Steven, put a piece of paper towel between the clamp and the body being glued. If the glue uses out it won’t glue the clamp to the body. Just my .02 cents.
Frank
Frank
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Re: Fix for plywood end-grain delamination on 1911 body?
I use wax paper rather than paper towels. It makes cleanup easier in my opinion.Sarikatime wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:50 pmSteven, put a piece of paper towel between the clamp and the body being glued. If the glue uses out it won’t glue the clamp to the body. Just my .02 cents.
Frank