In-car magnet charge with a welder?

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Steve Jelf
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In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:57 pm

In contemplating my first attempt at an in-car magnet charge, I recall that some have used a welder as a power source instead of batteries. How many amps would be best?

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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by JTT3 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:27 pm

Steve you’ll need a DC WELDER. NOT AC.


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by greenacres36 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:49 pm

I had my flywheel and mag ring out of the car. I hit it with a mig welder set on 40 volts. DC of course. Puts out 30 volts at 1500 rpms now. The way I see it is volts is the important factor here. Not amps. If I am understanding correctly.


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:25 am

Current, or amps, does the work. I would be cautious about subjecting a T magneto to voltage higher than about 30, if that. Applying DC power to the magneto for more than a second or two could cause trouble. Limiting voltage and time should limit current, heating, and avoid breaking down the insulation. The coils in the magneto will behave differently when DC current is applied to them than they do when the magneto is in operation and producing AC current. I would be absolutely sure I knew what I was doing before I attempted this procedure.


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by jab35 » Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:06 am

It has to be DC with correct polarity for the chosen N-S magnet alignment as described in the Ford service book using 4-6 volt car batteries. If I were doing this, I would not power thru the mag post, but instead make a copper stud, appropriately insulated from the hogshead, that sat firmly on the solder button contact on the mag ring & hard wired to the correct lead of the welder. I'd complete the circuit by striking the other lead to the hogshead or frame. Power from the welder (or battery pack) only needs to be applied for a fraction of a second and repeated multiple times to remagnitize the magnets. This is a DC circuit with essentially fixed resistance and Ohlm's law dictates both voltage and current play a role. You need sufficient voltage to send enough current thru the windings to create the strong magnetic field needed to 'saturate' the permanent magnets on the flywheel. Even if you know the stated voltace and or current rating of your welder, it's difficult (and not necessary) to measure those values during the instant power is connected. Greenacres is testimony to the method working, and he uses voltage values on the order of what Ford recommended with the 4 storage batteries. Find a buddy with a MIG welder and have an afternoon 'recharge' party. Best, jb


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by speedytinc » Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:40 am

jab35 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:06 am
It has to be DC with correct polarity for the chosen N-S magnet alignment as described in the Ford service book using 4-6 volt car batteries. If I were doing this, I would not power thru the mag post, but instead make a copper stud, appropriately insulated from the hogshead, that sat firmly on the solder button contact on the mag ring & hard wired to the correct lead of the welder. I'd complete the circuit by striking the other lead to the hogshead or frame. Power from the welder (or battery pack) only needs to be applied for a fraction of a second and repeated multiple times to remagnitize the magnets. This is a DC circuit with essentially fixed resistance and Ohlm's law dictates both voltage and current play a role. You need sufficient voltage to send enough current thru the windings to create the strong magnetic field needed to 'saturate' the permanent magnets on the flywheel. Even if you know the stated voltace and or current rating of your welder, it's difficult (and not necessary) to measure those values during the instant power is connected. Greenacres is testimony to the method working, and he uses voltage values on the order of what Ford recommended with the 4 storage batteries. Find a buddy with a MIG welder and have an afternoon 'recharge' party. Best, jb
Mostly agree, especially with removing the mag post. The critical alignment is to get the keepers centered over the coils. This is done by visual alignment as seen by brass screw ends viewed thru the inspection cover. N/S alignment doesnt matter.(but confirm with a compass if it makes you feel better) Only 1 strike with the welder @ highest setting.
Its a 30 minute job. If the field coil was/is good, instant 30+ volt output @ speed.


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by jab35 » Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:02 pm

John, what kind of welder do you use, stick/tig? And how do you connect to the mag post contact on the stator? thanks,jb


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by speedytinc » Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:23 pm

jab35 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:02 pm
John, what kind of welder do you use, stick/tig? And how do you connect to the mag post contact on the stator? thanks,jb
I believe it was a commercial DC stick welder. Friends unit, 300+ amp capability. Mag post removed. 3/8 bolt with some rubber hose to insulate from the H/H. Hold down firmly onto lead button. 1 quick strike outside H/H with the ground clamp.


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:35 pm

Why not just use a car battery????


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by speedytinc » Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:56 pm

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:35 pm
Why not just use a car battery????
It takes 4 to do it right. Its too much time & hassle to pull a bunch of batteries from my cars, plus jumper cables loose some amperes. Ideally short heavy cables should be made for the job. Way easier to find a friend with a big DC welder. Or a guy with an electric fork lift?


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:55 pm

An old Cat dozer can provide 24 VDC and all the amps you can carry.


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by greenacres36 » Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:49 pm

I’ll open a can of worms here…. Anyone ever wonder how CLEAN of DC a welder produces? I used a mig welder and it worked fine. I just wonder if it takes a little less voltage and you get a better job done by using car batteries tied together.

Food for thought.

Brian


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:37 pm

You'd be hard put to find cleaner DC than lead acid batteries, and they can deliver plenty of current for a short time with minimal voltage drop. They are non-inductive devices, which simplifies things.


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:43 pm

speedytinc wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:56 pm
Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:35 pm
Why not just use a car battery????
It takes 4 to do it right. Its too much time & hassle to pull a bunch of batteries from my cars, plus jumper cables loose some amperes. Ideally short heavy cables should be made for the job. Way easier to find a friend with a big DC welder. Or a guy with an electric fork lift?
12 volts and 800 CCA ain't enough?

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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by JTT3 » Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:05 pm

We use a BFW, dialed up to 240, truck mounted to charge the magnets on a flywheel out of the vehicle. You’re in & out in about 20 minutes. Then you need a small crow bar to get the field coil off the flywheel magnets. It just takes a millisecond touch, more than that you're melting the button.


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by jab35 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:04 am

The current delivered to the mag ring coils is determined by the voltage applied and the circuit resistance, not the CCA rating of the battery. The 16 coils in series have a calculated resistance of approximately 0.6 ohms (calculated from the Cu winding cross-section area and length, and too low to measure precisely with most low resolution Ohm meters). Applying 12 V DC to this circuit gives a current of 20 amperes, far less than the CCA rating of the battery. Not saying some recharge benefit would not be achieved, but much less effective than would be attained with higher voltage from several batteries in series. I believe Ford recommended 6-6 volt batteries (36 V DC, providing 60 Amperes current using the resistance value of 0.6 Ohms) in the service handbook. Respectfully, jb

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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by Thorlick » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:11 pm

I posted this technique on this forum many years ago. I have been using my DC welder to recharge magnets for about 20 years now with no problems. My welder puts out 50VDC and I just set it to the maximum amps it will flow.

Be sure to just flash the connection. Charging only happens in the micro second you make the connection and that instant when you break the connection. The time during the connection does nothing but create detrimental heat!

You only need to flash it once, but sinceI have bothered to set it up I flash several times and then rotate one magnet. I often repeat this through one complete crankshaft turn.

Way overkill, one flash is all you need to charge your magnets (or to demagnetize them if you screw up!).



A charge like this lasts many years… in Rusty’s case it lasts until the ignition switch breaks and shorts mag to bat! With this charging method I can end up starting the car with a 1/4 turn pull of the crank with my left hand (just how Henry Ford and Steve Jelf recommended) on mag!

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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by speedytinc » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:23 pm

"You only need to flash it once, but sinceI have bothered to set it up I flash several times and then rotate one magnet. I often repeat this through one complete crankshaft turn."
Dont you mean 2 magnets? Rotating 1 would de/re magnetize to opposite polarity.
I have experimented different ways & found 1 strike was as effective as multiple or relocating magnets. No gain in magneto output.


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:55 pm

jab35 wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:04 am
The current delivered to the mag ring coils is determined by the voltage applied and the circuit resistance, not the CCA rating of the battery. The 16 coils in series have a calculated resistance of approximately 0.6 ohms (calculated from the Cu winding cross-section area and length, and too low to measure precisely with most low resolution Ohm meters). Applying 12 V DC to this circuit gives a current of 20 amperes, far less than the CCA rating of the battery. Not saying some recharge benefit would not be achieved, but much less effective than would be attained with higher voltage from several batteries in series. I believe Ford recommended 6-6 volt batteries (36 V DC, providing 60 Amperes current using the resistance value of 0.6 Ohms) in the service handbook. Respectfully, jb
Thanks for the explanation! Should have remembered V=IR... :?

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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by Thorlick » Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:00 pm




Yes, you are correct. I use a compass which will indicate every other pole.

In car charging
In car charging


There are two things wrong with this method as posted:

1) the measurements indicate the center axle of the compass, not the compass card

2) once the flywheel position is set remove the compass before every charging flash. If your method will re-magnetize all the magnets in one flash, what will it do to your compass?

I like to paint a dot on my hogshead. Then I always place the compass on that dot when setting for charging. If you charge once every ten years the dot isn’t needed, but because I turn it to each magnet (alternate poles as each coil charges two magnets and each magnet is charged by two coils) I zap about 8 times around. So I reset the compass each time. Exact placement over my dot gives me an identical compass deflection for each magnet.

I have never gotten a different deflection (decrease in deflection not a reversal) on a magnet as I rotated the flywheel, but if I did I would suspect a cracked magnet. If you spot a cracked magnet you MUST remove the engine and rebuild the flywheel! This is a safety issue!

Remember, one flash and you are done if you want to keep things simple!
TH
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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by AndyClary » Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:21 pm

Last time this topic came up someone posted Tom Carnegie’s instructions on using a welder. They are simple and effective. I used my Tig welder set on stick. Start to finish didn’t take 15 minutes.
Easy to find in search.

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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by jab35 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:27 am

Like the Cicadas, but with 6 year hibernation, this topic re-emerged here in 2021 with many of the same questions and answers from some of the same people as before. The 2015 emergence of the topic was pretty good, here it is, http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/528397.html


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:13 pm

That compass position is wrong in the diagram above, as there is no reference to the size of that compass case, which will make a lot of difference in your charge effect.

The arrow should be pointing to the pin the compass needle rides on and not to the edge of the case.

Get a Mag Coil Ring and measure the distance between the center of the Mag Terminal and the pole pickup.

Then you can see what I am saying.

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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by AndreFordT » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:47 pm

I folowed this thread and just want to add this:

The recharging of the magnets by using the magneto coilring is working whatever you use as power suply but it need to be DC and over 18Vdc.
The second experience I have with this methode is that it is a good control of the shape of your coilring. If you get smoke while trying to do the recharge, your coil ring needs a rebuild. Have seen this a few times.

Both of the loops, in the photos, are out of the engine. They were smoking during a try to get the magneto back alive.
By each engine rebuild I make I also rebuild the coilring. Outside it is maybe looking good but what is going on inside you only can see as you take it apart.

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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:53 pm

Ity might be a good idea to test the resistance of a coil ring before attempting an in car recharge. Some weak magnetos have one or more grounded coils, which reduces the total resistance of the series coil circuit significantly and might cause the remaining functional coils to heat up much quicker, beside leaving some magnets out of the recharge process.


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by speedytinc » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:56 pm

Maybe the fact that only a quick strike is used to produce the electromagnetic field needed.
Leaving the power any longer creates a heater element & melts stuff. A quick flash on a bare field coil that shows smoke, indicates a short.(bad field coil)

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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:11 pm

Doing a little Google search, I find that I once posted the Fahnestock illustrations.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/82 ... 1522763581
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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by speedytinc » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:21 pm

jab35 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:27 am
Like the Cicadas, but with 6 year hibernation, this topic re-emerged here in 2021 with many of the same questions and answers from some of the same people as before. The 2015 emergence of the topic was pretty good, here it is, http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/528397.html
I re-read Toms excellent post with his exhaustive testing(s). Well worth a COMPLETE read.
It narrows the process to it optimal outcome & Minimal effort. I have successfully used his method.
No debate left on the subject in my mind.

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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by namdc3 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:28 pm

Steve, I'll throw my two cents in, having been successful with 36V of car batteries. 1) I would exhaust all other options in seeking to determine the low output first (switch, mag post, end play, etc.). I suspect you'll done that already. 2) Only use extremely short strikes without holding to avoid building too much heat. 3) Give things time to cool between strikes (rotating the crank to the next 90 deg increment provides good time for this). 4) A tiny bit of smoke doesn't definitely condemn your coil ring, as little external bits burning off will smoke, too.

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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by JamesD » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:09 pm

This may go against all the theory, but I used a heavy duty 12V battery charger. After my ignition switch issue I had discharged the magnets. I have one of those floor model battery chargers with a 300A "boost" feature. I hooked the negative lead to the frame and the positive onto the mag terminal. Then I just switched it on and off as fast as I could about 50 times. I realize that's probably overkill now, but it worked. Otherwise I used the method described by Tom Carnegie and lined up the magnet screw heads horizontal when looking in through the inspection cover. My magnets were so discharged I couldn't get a reading on them with a compass. My mag is running strong now.


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by John kuehn » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:54 pm

Now that’s a good idea using a battery charger. I have one of those heavy duty chargers I use here on the farm and it does have the boost when trying to start with a low or nearly discharged battery.


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by SurfCityGene » Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:40 pm

This has been discussed many times before and I always recommend guys to search Tom Carnegie's post. He has done extensive research and won the Montana 500 many times. The magnet polarity can be reversed without any care. He posted a very detailed description how easy and successful this can be done in the car without a compass or other means. Welder is best source for in car recharging.
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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by speedytinc » Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:38 pm

SurfCityGene wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:40 pm
This has been discussed many times before and I always recommend guys to search Tom Carnegie's post. He has done extensive research and won the Montana 500 many times. The magnet polarity can be reversed without any care. He posted a very detailed description how easy and successful this can be done in the car without a compass or other means. Welder is best source for in car recharging.
I have in the past used such a charger on with 3 batteries. Still didnt give enough power for a "saturation" charge. Less than best possible results. You can do it this way in 4 quarter turn jolts with good results. Tom C's method is the best I have done. Go back & read his whole post on the subject. Any thing else is less than best. IMO. Lot of stubborn/non believer people out there. I am always open to better ways, but, havent seen it yet for magnet recharges.


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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by SurfCityGene » Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:55 pm

Johnny, Ya got that Right, Tom's method should be in every Ford Repair book! The cool thing is it's the most simple and easiest and yet gets the best results!!
Just don't understand some of these suggestions like one 12 V battery or use a battery charger and such that in no way will ever work. I wish some people would hold their comments if they don't know. I feel bad when poor information is being passed along and surely hope somebody doesn't try using it.
Don't mean to offend anyone..
1912 Torpedo Roadster


speedytinc
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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by speedytinc » Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:07 am

We all learn in our own ways. ".....lead a horse to water........" We have done all we can on the subject.


TXGOAT2
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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:41 am

I bought a nifty little Chinese VOM and tested my mag voltage at 1200 indicated RPM. It showed 25 VAC. 700 RPM showed 15 VAC. I tried crank starting the car on mag with the timing advanced farther than I had tried it before, and the engine started easily. It looks like all I need to start on mag is a choke wire.


jab35
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Re: In-car magnet charge with a welder?

Post by jab35 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:48 am

Sadly, we bid farewell to the recurring topic of in-car magnet recharge for another 6 years. Hopefully, everyone will be here to engage and enjoy it when it comes 'round again. Respectfully, jb

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