1910 For Sale on HCCA

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Loftfield
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1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by Loftfield » Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:52 am

There is a 1910 Model T for sale on Horseless Carriage Club of America forum. The price seems very low (as in tempting) but there are many on this forum who regularly "check put" Model T's for sale, describing exactly what is not stock, not right, worrisome, or just plain wrong. Maybe some of those knowledgeable reviewers would take a look and share their evaluations.

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TWrenn
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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by TWrenn » Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:28 am

That car was on the classifieds here in the forum at least a month ago. It's out of Arizona. Nice fella selling it. Bought a carbide generator from him.

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TWrenn
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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by TWrenn » Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:30 am

Found the link to save anyone interested some time hunting for it.

https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21402

Nice car for the money.


Wayne Sheldon
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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:39 pm

The HCCA forum classifieds do not have enough or large enough photos to reveal much. I knew I had seen the car somewhere before it showed up on HCCA. I thought I remembered it as a good looking car, but couldn't really tell from the photos on HCCA. The photos and discussion on our classified are much better, and show it to be probably a very good car!
My biggest complaint is the color. Red, and then it was all red, was only used for about the first half of 1909. In my opinion, way too many early brass Ts were painted red in the hobby decades ago. I like these much better in green. I also prefer the wheels painted proper color as god and Henry intended (joking!).
Generally, I think it looks like a good early brass T, and I wish I could justify buying it myself. I am beginning to look at maybe buying something, and a real early brass T is something I have never had. But it is more than I can justify for something like this, for me. I don't know where the markets are going at this point. Prices on a nice car like this my go up, or they may go down, over the next few years. However, and this is only my opinion (and I really don't like appraising other people's car's value?), but I think the price is very fair.
And anyone interested in spending the money should look things over carefully to confirm what is only guesswork from photos!


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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by Rich Bingham » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:33 pm

Would a 1910 have had the square hole transmission cover ? I hope original parts have been preserved and are included.
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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by TRDxB2 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:05 pm

Rich Bingham wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:33 pm
Would a 1910 have had the square hole transmission cover ? I hope original parts have been preserved and are included.
This is a very nice setup and driver at a reasonable price. But its not a garage queen What is said and not said appears to be accurate.
https://hcca.org/Classifieds/admore.php?num=16511
1910 touring 2.png
--
The car has a starter, so different hogs head, also has an alternator. The wording on the MTFCA is very specific about the body, the critique about the block seems to verify an open valve engine, incorrect timer (not two piece but likely more reliable), little is mentioned about the undercarriage other than the rear axle pictured is not included
From the Encyclopedia for a 1910 - wishbone & perches incorrect, what is included!
FRONT AXLE: “One piece” spindles. Tie rod ran above the radius rod, had integral yoke/ball fitting on right end, and adjustable yoke, with the locking bolt in a horizontal plane (parallel to the road). Drag link threaded 20 t.p.i. at the column end. No oilers on most fittings. Radius rod fastened to the engine with cap screws.
The late model perch seems to be correct in this picture, facing reward (hard to tell from the other one)
1910 touring 5.png
1910 touring 5.png (708.16 KiB) Viewed 3154 times
REAR AXLE: “Six-rivet” style. Inner axle and pinion bearings were now roller bearings. A reinforcing plate was added at the driveshaft area. Thicker center flange with reinforcing washers was added at first and then a reinforcing ring on one side, then on both sides of the flange. Axle shafts were non-tapered, with the hubs being secured with a key and a pin. Roller pinion bearing was introduced at about 15,000 in March, 1910.
1910 touring 3.png
I didn't see a picture of an axle with red wheels so....
May want to find out what is being welded
1910 touring 4.png
Last edited by TRDxB2 on Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by George Hand » Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:52 pm

Very confusing car offered here after viewing several post seems hard to tell what you get. Owner needs to clarify what the chassis is & provide current photos of what is for sale, not picturing parts that are to be swapped after the sale!!! Beautiful body, but it looks like a high end Bitsa car at a moderate price range.


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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:45 pm

I don't know. I am beginning to think I like it less and less. Being somewhat assured the engine is a real 1910 (at least some of the most important pieces of it?) is a big plus! And I usually don't mind making some corrections as time goes on (like removing added starters).
If both the front and rear ends are not the correct era? Then it becomes a bit more for future expense to make the car right. Looking more closely at the picture of the front axle and spring perch? I get the impression that the axle itself is a later one with early style ends welded onto it? I have seen and heard of those before. Steel end castings made to look like the 1909/'10 axle ends that get welded onto cut-off later axles to use the early style one-piece spindles. Yet, in another photo it appears the end of a later axle might have been filled in to fit the early style spindles? Then, I begin to wonder? Are the spindles actually correct 1909/'10 spindles, or maybe later one piece from 1921 (a one year short run oddity).
I may need to rethink this one?


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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by Ron Mac » Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:45 pm

I find it funny that those picking this car a part probably do not even own a 1909 or 1910 Model T.
Yes, it has some major wrong parts-pan, trans cover, front rear ends. Still, it does have a correct 1910 block, body and other components.
At the end of the day, this is still a 1910 Model T touring that has some of its major core components and is priced at 25K.
You could not build a 1910 Model T using all later components and reproduction parts for anywhere close to that number. Heck, a bare new body, fenders, radiator, lights and top irons would cost you half of this amount and you are now where near a complete car. An original 1910 block that needs 4K worth of machine work to make it usable would sell for 5K alone.
If this car had all of its correct components, it would be 40-50K.
What a great entry into brass car touring for a car that looks great and is priced far below lots of other cars.
If I did not own a 1910 touring, I would be all over this one. Is it the best? No. Is it a great value for the money? Yes.
I have seen ugly speedsters that lack proportions and pedigree sell for almost as much.
The loudest cries come from the cheapest seats.
Someone with realistic expectations is going to end up with a great brass touring car.


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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by Erik Barrett » Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:33 am

It’s amazing how uptight people get when someone claims their model T is any older than the newest part on it. It is particularly egregious when the car in question is presented as earlier than cars owned by the offended parties. This is a lot of car for the money. I am helping put together a 1909 for a friend. He has more than $25K in it and it is far from done. When it is done you will likely never see it. He won’t take it to shows only to be hacked to pieces by purists eager to point out every deviation from absolutely stock all original 1909 parts and question whether the stitching on the side curtains is supposed to be terminated on the top or the bottom and if the color of the thread is correct. No, this car is going to be a driver to enjoy. It’s got a planetor transmission and Rocky Mtn brakes for touring our hill country. I don’t blame him for that but I have warned him he may get bomb threats.


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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:54 am

Ron M, et al, I do agree with most of what you say. One of the realities of 1909 and 1910 model Ts is that very few really right cars do exist! Few survived their first decade without changes due to weaknesses in the design that hadn't been worked out until after those first two years. Also due to those early weaknesses, many of the early Ts wore out or broke down before very many years. For those reasons, big numbers didn't make it even until the depression came about.
In the 1950s, the hobby hadn't found its way yet, and many early cars that did manage to survive had things like front axles and rear ends changed out to make them better for driving. Original engines that had survived their first fifty years often didn't survive the next fifty because they were abused again, or modified foolishly (ever seen an open valve block with a model A crank and OHV on it?).
For all those reasons and more, most 1909 and 1910 model Ts are not really right, if they are original cars at all! Easily half of the claimed 1909/'10 cars are flat-out fakes with little or nothing early brass era on them! I have seen a couple of them that had original brass lamps and EVERYTHING else was reproduction or 1920s era parts!
For 1909 especially, there are only a handful of truly intact survivors that have been restored. And I don't think there is any truly original intact car anywhere. 1910 isn't much better. At least by 1910, Ford had settled in a bit. The cars weren't being changed every few hundred production, and therefore it is a bit easier to get them right with re-restoration. We watched two years ago as one re-restoration was shared here on the forum, and to a very high degree as far as making it correct was concerned.
While there are some issues here that I would be concerned about? A few questions to be answered about pieces included in the sale or not? I see a decent very early T for decent 1912 touring car money. If I could afford it? I would probably take the drive and go look at it myself. But I cannot spend that kind of money, so for me it will just have to be another broken dream.

FYI, I came back here to express what I just wrote, and found your reply. So I just altered my thoughts a bit to fit.
And I see Erik B is on here late also!

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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by TWrenn » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:52 am

Erik Barrett wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:33 am
It’s amazing how uptight people get when someone claims their model T is any older than the newest part on it. It is particularly egregious when the car in question is presented as earlier than cars owned by the offended parties. This is a lot of car for the money. I am helping put together a 1909 for a friend. He has more than $25K in it and it is far from done. When it is done you will likely never see it. He won’t take it to shows only to be hacked to pieces by purists eager to point out every deviation from absolutely stock all original 1909 parts and question whether the stitching on the side curtains is supposed to be terminated on the top or the bottom and if the color of the thread is correct. No, this car is going to be a driver to enjoy. It’s got a planetor transmission and Rocky Mtn brakes for touring our hill country. I don’t blame him for that but I have warned him he may get bomb threats.
Erik....I couldn't agree with you more. Luckily, I've "outgrown" the true purist stage of life! I now own a wonderful '11 Torpedo, yep, by garsh it has an ELECTRIC STARTER, (no generator tho!) but it does have that dreaded Tru-Fire (I actually like it, having owned two now) which also has that gizmo to keep the batteries charged just enough to keep them up while firing the plugs, also has a Ruxtell and oh yeh, wire wheels! Add to that Rockies, and guess what, this car runs and drives like a dream! 90% of the car is correct for an '11, the running gear, chassis, lamps, etc. and was a beautiful nut and bolt resto, literally everything was beautifully restored/painted to as correct a dark blue as possible. Truly a great looking car, albeit with a few "battle scars" as it was, and will continue to be driven, a LOT! After I get the engine rebuilt that is.

I have dealt with the owner of this T personally and he is a good guy. He presents everything in his original forum (I provided the link above) very honestly. It's just up to the nit-pickers to decide if it's good for them. Frankly, I WOULD buy the car if not for the distance, and of course I don't have the money and a wee bit tight for space, plus I really don't need two tourings anyway. I love Clarabelle, my '13 plenty enough. Put 2,000 miles on her this season alone. And 10,000 on her now since I bought her in 2013, besides driving all my other cars seasonally also.

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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by TWrenn » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:54 am

Wayne...excellent points and discussion! Bravo.


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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by Sarikatime » Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:09 pm

Wayne and Tim, I feel both of you are spot on. I don’t believe there is an original factory model T on the planet. As Original Larry Smith Stated a couple years back that once you re inflate a flat tire with air it is no longer factory original. Now that is the most purist statement I have ever heard but leaves you thinking where you draw the line. To what degree Joe Caraways 1910 touring is original, or with some nos parts have been used to keep it running many moons ago, but it is running today and is able to be used and enjoyed is the bottom line. I drove that car before Joe bought it and it seemed to be a strong and solid car that I would be honored to be its caretaker, but I just don’t have the garage space.
It seems there are a bunch of envious individuals out there that just want to knock the car down because they can’t afford it or no room for it, like me, but, don’t want anyone else to have the privilege of guardianship. The price so low that even if you had to replace a couple parts to take it into the more original category, according to you, it is still a fantastic car that few can enjoy anymore. There are simply no more you are able to buy. All the shade tree mechanics looking at it from twenty feet away, can not tell the difference?
Just my two cents. Frank


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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by KimDobbins » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:07 pm

In this day and age is seems that history doesn't matter much any more. Bruce McCalley, Trent Boggess, John Regan and many others have given us a great foundation for the model T Ford hobby. It's pretty easy to find all the information on this web site and the encyclopedia needed to properly restore a car or determine the correct parts for a given year. As Wayne said, there aren't many cars out there that are really right, but if you hunt, you can find them. I've always had great respect for those who go the extra mile to hunt up those really rare parts to make there cars as correct as possible.
When ever an early car comes up for sale on the classified section it usually turns into drama. I don't see a problem in pointing out correct and incorrect parts as long as it's done respectfully and with the purpose being education. That's a fine line to walk but it may save someone from buying something they will later regret.


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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:32 pm

Ntch... too bad. Nice car, but laboratory analysis clearly shows that the oil in the motor is not the original factory fill.... # 3 plug wire is 3/8" longer than spec...


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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by Ron Mac » Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:14 am

Cars are just that-cars. Brass cars are meant to be enjoyed. Not picked apart because something is not as right as it should be. This is a great HCCA tour car and hopefully the next caretaker will enjoy it for what it is. When you are driving through the Rocky Mountains or climbing Mount Washington or driving "ears down" through the flat lands of Iowa, does it matter if the front axle is correct?
The most important thing is the experience of touring a 100+ year old car through this great country of ours and experiencing a car for what it really is.
Last edited by Ron Mac on Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:48 am

I know that I can sometimes come across as a bit harsh. I think part of that is my analytical mind. It served me well when communications or control systems were down, and the problem needed to be found and repaired quickly to get important systems operating again. You wouldn't believe how upset people get when they are missing their soap operas! We also did systems a lot more important than television distribution. One manufacturing control system had a four hour lag time built in. The control system could be down for four hours before the company began losing money. But due to distance, it usually took nearly two hours for me to get there once they called. And when those four hours were up? The company lost nearly a thousand dollars per minute! I nearly always had them back up within the four hours.

Early brass era model Ts are a special collectible. The details between a top end restoration and an average real car are a hundred little things. Major components like the front axle are not only very expensive, but also safety issues. The later front axle may have been put in because of the weakness of the original design (personally, I have never been afraid of the original design as long as it is in very good condition!) Regardless of that, it does seriously affect the value of the car. When a car is for sale and questions are asked, it obligates us to point out things that seriously affect the value of that car.
A person should not want to pay top dollar value for a car that isn't worth that much. And the reasons why it isn't a fifty or seventy thousand dollar car should be pointed out. I feel that this car is well worth the $25,000 asked. It is something I would like, and if I could afford it I would consider this car myself. But if I tried to buy something like this at this time? I would likely find the car and me homeless on the street!

I actually do not consider myself to be an expert on these. Having studied and read so much over the past fifty years, I figure that I know more about 1909 and 1910 model T Fords than 95 percent of model T hobbyists. I suspect Kim Dobbins knows more than 99.5 percent of model T hobbyists do about them. And I figure he knows about ten times as much as I do. I always enjoy chatting with him (happens too rarely for my liking) and asking him details I get curious about.

The human world is in a bad place these days. The economic situations of the past two years have been devastating for millions of people. And the real damage will take decades to be realized. What that all means for our hobby has been discussed at length on several forums, in spite of forum rules against such discussions. One thing many serious analysts agree on, is that the top end of our hobby is probably going to continue for any foreseeable future. The top end Classics, really special muscle/sports cars, and biggest, best, or earliest horseless carriages will have billionaire collectors giving them homes and driving prices for those million dollar cars ever higher! The low end hobby will probably be in big trouble in another twenty years (I am glad I won't be around that long!) The middle ground could go either way.
This 1910 is a middle ground car. I suspect that most really right 1909 and early 1910 model Ts will find their way into major private collections over the next ten to twenty years. Similar cars that aren't quite so right? Could go either way.

REGARDLESS! I think we should buy what we enjoy if we can afford to! My situation has improved slightly recently (I do hope I am not jinxing it by saying so?), and I might be able to buy a car to replace one of the several I had to sell over the past twelve years. I won't be able to spend quite this much. But I could be happy with any of a lot of lesser cars!

I have said it a couple times already. I think the price on this car is very fair. Is it perfect? Or totally correct? No. But the price isn't for that level of car! And there is a lot of the really important early stuff that looks to be good! If one can afford it? They could do a whole lot worse, in a whole bunch of ways. A potential buyer should look it over up close, always.


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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:02 am

Wouldn't a truly original 1910 car be worth upwards of $40K? If money is an object, as it is for most people, could you drive such a car if you had it? Wouldn't adding miles require substantial maintenence? Where do you get original service parts for your original car? Could you afford the cost of proper storage for it? Could you reasonabley expect it to appreciate enough as it sat in your vault storage to offset the costs of owning it for, say, ten years?


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Re: 1910 For Sale on HCCA

Post by Rich Bingham » Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:53 am

Excellent questions for reflection, Pat !

It's difficult territory. All model Ts have a perceived "market value". Supply and demand, as with everything, control the monetary range. Why are any of us invested in them ?? Expenditures of treasure, talent and especially time, are always made in expectation of some form of gratification. Fiscal net gain is rarely possible with "old cars", often less so with Model Ts. "Gratification" can take many forms - generally, folks on the extreme ends of the gamut of gratification a Model T can provide tend to think of the other's pursuits as wrong, frivolous and misguided. Each of us should be aware of diminishing returns from our own unique "investment" !

Another thought, it is a fact of life that with time, all things pass away. Already we are finding the limit century-old cast iron can withstand. Ravages of wear and corrosion will ultimately ring the death knell for all Model Ts kept in service . . . Sic transit gloria mundi.
"Get a horse !"

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