Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

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rainer
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Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by rainer » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:56 am

Hello.
My car is a '16 Touring with wooden spokes and additional AC brakes (they work on outside of emergency rake drum, that ones).

This weekend I want to start building a holder for the Speed Measurement Hall Sensor. This sensor I want to mount at left-rear wheel, closely to the AC brake, in approx. 1" distance from the wooden spokes. To make it mostly invisible, it shall be located closely to the outer dimension of AC brakes and somewhere in lower region (between 4:00 and 8:00 position), so the brake is hiding it.

Idea 1:
It would be best when I could loosen one or both nuts from the diagonal stabilizing bar, coming from U-Joint and ending with its fork at the brake drum (no idea how it is named). Then I can put a piece of cut sheet metal over the threads and re-tighten the nuts. This sheet metal is the base for a piece of steel rod then. But I am scared that I will have to take off the wheel (and possibly even more) when the bolt needs to be held for tightening the outside nuts. Currently I do not have the tools needed to pull the wheel.
How is the situation here? Can I take off at least one nut, and tighten it again without access to the bolt head (if there is one inside)?

Idea 2:
Alternatively I think about making a clamp to the stabilizing bar itself. A clamp fitting to the shape of this bar, being tightened by 2 bolts reaching across the bar. I will weld a piece of steel rod to this clamp (pointing towards the wheel) and mount the sensor on its tip.

Idea 3:
I use a short piece of angle iron (1 1/2 or 2" every side) and 2" length. This will sit on the round/oval surface of the stabilizing bar. This iron will have two welded-on flanges with a drilled hole of 8 mm diameter. Then I bend a piece of threaded rod into U-shape. It comes from the other side (above and below the stabilizing bar), goes through the flange holes, and is tightened by two nuts.

As you can see, Every later idea is a simplification of previous one.

Any suggestions what will be the best way?
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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:31 am

I think you are referring to the outer/rear end of the radius rods that stabilize the rear axle housings relative to the torque tube which houses the drive shaft?
Generally, attempting to loosen either of the two bolts at the back end of the radius rod without first removing the wheel is a very bad idea. The bolt head inside has nothing to hold it in place, and most likely will spin in its hole not allowing removal of said bolt or nut. Gripping onto the exposed threads will likely bugger them up badly, and simply make the entire situation worse. You might be able to get it apart? But if you bugger up the threads of the bolt? Getting the nut back on is going to be far worse than getting it off was! Getting it tight enough to not rattle and wear out will become nearly impossible.

Sometimes? Sometimes the wheel will come off easily with simple common tools and surprise you. Maybe give it a try? Maybe you can get ahold of the hubcap and remove it without damage? (I have done it a few times without the right wrench?) If the hubcap comes off, then it is a cotter pin and a common hex head castle nut which common tools work on. IF, BIG IF! IF the wheel might be a bit loose on the axle taper? SOMETIMES the wheel will come off easily. IF it does? Its a good thing to discover and fix now at your convenience. The wheel should not be that loose.

I gather that you are attaching a speedometer of some sort, and its trigger sensor? A simple "U" clamp/mount on the radius rod may be easy to do.

Steve Jelf has mounted his on the front wheel a few times, but had problems from vibration and bumps in the road breaking the sensor, its mounts, or wiring. His "Dauntless Geezer" website I think may have information about his trials and tribulations with that.


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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by DHort » Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:06 pm

Rainer,

If I remember correctly, this car is new to you. You really should remove the rear wheels and check your bearings, sleeves, and seals before you drive the car any long distance. You only need the puller and a new cap at this point. I suggest you get the newer cap.
rainer1.jpg
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,
rainer.jpg
rainer.jpg (2.68 KiB) Viewed 2858 times
IN the meantime you can design Idea 1 which is probably the best of your three designs.

Remove your wheels and examine them. Make sure the bolts on the wheels are peened. Regrease and install your bearings(usually do this every year if you drive a lot). Now you can easily install the bracket for your Speed Sensor. Put the wheel back on. Now you know that everything is correct and you will feel safer driving your car.


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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:06 am

Why not mount it to a front wheel, like everyone else does?

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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:17 am

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:06 am
Why not mount it to a front wheel, like everyone else does?
My thinking exactly. Simple bracket as shown
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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by rainer » Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:39 am

Wayne Sheldon wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:31 am
I think you are referring to the outer/rear end of the radius rods that stabilize the rear axle housings relative to the torque tube which houses the drive shaft?
Generally, attempting to loosen either of the two bolts at the back end of the radius rod without first removing the wheel is a very bad idea. The bolt head inside has nothing to hold it in place, and most likely will spin in its hole not allowing removal of said bolt or nut. ...
...

I gather that you are attaching a speedometer of some sort, and its trigger sensor? A simple "U" clamp/mount on the radius rod may be easy to do.

Steve Jelf has mounted his on the front wheel a few times, but had problems from vibration and bumps in the road breaking the sensor, its mounts, or wiring. His "Dauntless Geezer" website I think may have information about his trials and tribulations with that.
Thank you so much for your answer.

Yes, I mean the outer end of rear axle, where the Radius Rod (I found out its name :lol: ) is bolted on. This is exactly what I was afraid of, that the bolt head is not held in a hexagon hole against turning. I will stay far away from loosening this bolts then.

Yes, I am talking of "some sort of trigger sensor". I made the entire dashboard by myself, including two light switches and a little display, showing battery voltage and speed. I made a short video available if you want to see it.
Mounting the sensor at a front wheel is not beautiful. Simply too exposed. Also the distance between magnet and sensor varies with orientation of the wheel when steering left/right, and the cable is permanently in move. Also the EMI (electromagnetic interference) from ignition into the sensor is much higher than at rear wheel. Therefore I decided to mount it at a rear wheel, this (hopefully) will never change its orientation. :lol: Also, the sensor will almost vanish between all the other parts of AC brakes.

I will use a "U" clamp/mount on the radius rod, this will be the best choice. I had another look on the car right now, the rod from clamp towards the wheel spokes is approx 4" only, this is the best option. I will use stainless steel because it is non-magnetic and has no effect to my sensor, painted black to fit the car..

This is my self-built sensor. It has some electronics inside to make it extremely resistant against EMI.
My sensor
My sensor
Thanks again.
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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:42 am

I have done this with a bicycle speedometer several times. I always mounted the sensor in front as the other guys suggested. It always failed. No matter how I mounted the sensor and tried to protect it, road hazards always murdered it. I never finished a long trip with a working speedometer. Finally I installed the sensor and magnet inside a rear brake drum where I figured it would be safe. It worked for a few miles and quit.

I will install a real Model T era speedometer and back it up with a GPS device.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by rainer » Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:15 am

Hello, Steve.

From my understanding, you mounted the "speedometer unit" somewhere close to the lower margin of your windshield, the sensor cable was installed towards the wheel. I think you had to extend the cable in addition. I experienced by myself that the Model T ignition system is a nightmare in point of radio emissions. Four sparkling buzzer coils, unshielded sparkplug cables, coil-box with simple wood on its back and bottom side mounted on a wooden firewall (so all electromagnetic noise caused by the buzzer coils can leave the coil-box without any restriction... So all this creates an extremely harsh environment for electronic devices, especially to bicycle speedometers (designed for bicycles where all this harsh environment does not exist). I can imagine very well that you had no success with bicycle speedometers therefore.

Because I already felt that it will not be easy, I already took care of many things when I built my electronic dashboard speedometer. Everything worked perfectly on my lab-desk, but when I installed it into my Lizzy, the display showed only garbage when the engine was running, caused by the same horrible electromagnetic noise I mentioned above. I made another design of my electronics and finally got it working with a lot of modifications.

Therefore I use in my electronics everywhere shielded cables now. ("Shielded" means that each cable and/or wire has a fine copper mesh around it (like a TV antenna cable, only lots thinner). The copper mesh is connected to chassis ground of my Lizzy.) I also use extreme filtering and protection on all connections of my dashboard electronics.

You should also try shielded cables. I am pretty sure they will help a lot. I don't know Electronics Stores in USA, but I think stores like Radio-Shack (does it still exist?) should sell you cables in any length you need. Ask for stereo-microphone-cables, if your bicycle speedometer has two wires to the sensor. This cables are of very high quality (but cheap). There are two wires inside (often red and white, but color doesn't matter), and each wire is covered by a fine copper mesh. Replace the entire cable between bicycle speedometer and its sensor by this cable. Twist the copper meshes together and connect this twist directly to chassis ground on speedometer side. The wires you connect to the sensor and speedometer, respectively. Of course, you need to use soldering iron, shrinking tubes, ..., if you don't have that equipment, you should please somebody to do this for you.

About my speedometer and dashboard:
Meanwhile I had a test drive with the cable from dashboard to the left-rear wheel connected to the dashboard. This cable was therefore already exposed to this harsh environment and received it like an antenna, but there was no difference to before (without this cable connected) -- the dashboard worked without any difference. Good success so far. But then the weather became too cold for further driving.

Next weekend I will build my sensor mount, it will be clamped to the radius rod, then this work is also finished. I plan to post some pictures of my finished work. But I will have to wait for spring to test it on the road.

Greets from Austria,

Rainer
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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:11 am

...the Model T ignition system is a nightmare in point of radio emissions... I can imagine very well that you had no success with bicycle speedometers therefore.

I read of that before I started using bike speedometers, but I never experienced it with the Velo Cateye. It always worked fine until it was disabled by physical damage to the sensor, wiring, or mounting hardware. It happens that the wire I used in the most recent attempt was shielded, though I didn't ground it to the frame. It didn't prevent the physical damage to the sensor setup that killed the project. Perhaps I could figure out a more stable sensor installation, and maybe I'll try, but if I do I won't depend on it to be my only speedometer.
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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by rainer » Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:01 am

I want to share a little update.

Today I finished the holder for my wheel sensor. It is made of stainless steel and finally painted black.

This is the rough cut&bend of the holder. It perfectly slides over the radius rod with only a very little play. The sensor mounting holes are already marked but not drilled. Long-nuts for clamping are not welded on yet.
Holder cut&bent from 50x30x2 mm rectangular pipe
Holder cut&bent from 50x30x2 mm rectangular pipe
Viewed from other side
Viewed from other side

Here the sensor is temporarily mounted. My Lizzy has AC brakes installed. This braked have a spring for opening and a lever for closing. The sensor will sit between spring and lever (there it is in a safe place and not so exposed) in a distance of 12mm (~1/2") from the wooden spokes.
With temporarily mounted sensor
With temporarily mounted sensor

Here the paintwork is drying. You can see the M5 long nuts for clamping the holder to the left-rear radius rod. The cable runs along the radius rod to below the battery, then it goes up in a bow and is fixed at the battery holder. There it has a waterproof plug to allow removal of sensor when needed. The cable is then running inside the left steel frame to my little dashboard.
Painted black
Painted black

What finally has to be done (I will do that when mounting the sensor is finished):
Mounting the magnet needs to be done. I will hide it inside one wooden spoke by drilling a 6mm (~1/4") and 16mm (~3/4") deep blind hole from sensor side. Then I will squeeze in some Epoxy using a syringe and push in the magnet. So the entire hole is filled and sealed by Epoxy. Then I will stop the Epoxy from dripping out by adhesive tape until it has hardened. Finally I will sand it and paint over in black, then the magnet is fully hidden.
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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by rainer » Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:47 am

Hello, DHort.

I found the wheel puller at Lang's (https://www.modeltford.com/item/2800WP.aspx), but they name it Wheel puller for rear wheels.

Can it be used only on rear wheels, or does it work on all four wheels?

What is the other picture? Couldn't find it at Lang's yet.


DHort wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:06 pm
Rainer,

If I remember correctly, this car is new to you. You really should remove the rear wheels and check your bearings, sleeves, and seals before you drive the car any long distance. You only need the puller and a new cap at this point. I suggest you get the newer cap.
rainer1.jpg,rainer.jpg

IN the meantime you can design Idea 1 which is probably the best of your three designs.

Remove your wheels and examine them. Make sure the bolts on the wheels are peened. Regrease and install your bearings(usually do this every year if you drive a lot). Now you can easily install the bracket for your Speed Sensor. Put the wheel back on. Now you know that everything is correct and you will feel safer driving your car.
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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:30 am

Front wheels don't need a puller. After you unscrew the outer bearing, the wheel slips off the spindle easily.

The other picture shows a modern version of the axle housing cap (Part #2510). See your Ford parts book. I can't testify about the modern version, as I haven't used it.
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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by DHort » Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:48 pm

Rainer, my buddy Steve beat me to this. He is correct. The wheel puller is only for the rear wheels. Since you are working on the rear wheels it would be a good time to take them off and check all the parts. The #2510 is just a pressed wheel cap. I always destroy them when I remove them. I have switched to #2510NB. Much easier to remove and replace. Also, do not forget there should be a piece of felt that goes between the hub and the cap. It fits into the circular groove in the hub. Many owners forget this part. I believe the felts are #2809.
Like Steve said, the front wheels are completely different and do not need a puller. If you need advice on greasing the front wheels, please ask.

Your car is a 1916, so you want 2510N, not 2510NB.

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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by rainer » Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:23 am

DHort,
thank you for this information. I see that I will have to get some special tools very quickly to be able to work on my Lizzy.

Besides of usual machines (welding inverter, grinders, plasma cutter, ...) I already have:
  • a die set for imperial nuts/bolts
  • two adjustable wrenches
  • a tapping tool for inner and outer threads (fine and coarse) for imperial threads up to 1"
  • two jacks (one original Ford T and a similar one for 2 Tons) + hydraulic jacks
  • Securing wire pliers
  • three smaller tire irons made of cast aluminum (I have not removable rims)
Soon I will get (already ordered):
  • Very small Nail Pullers (in size of a screw driver) to get off inner coating from doors without damage
At first glance I see following things missing:
  • Rear wheel puller #2800WP (at Lang's)
  • Wrench for wheel caps, spark plug, ... #1349 (at Lang's)
Anything else I should have at hands? The Universal Wrench for wheel caps ... is mandatory, that is clear. It will be on-board when I have it.
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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by DHort » Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:29 pm

Since you are in Austria and have a number of tools already or can hopefully do what you have to with tools you already have on hand, I would suggest these three:

2509SP - sleeve puller

3820-447 -bushing driver

3061W - exhaust pipe wrench

Others will agree or disagree with me. Thats fine. I have two T's and I like having these available. Hope that helps.

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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:04 pm

These are not just shop tools, but I consider also a requirement to carry in a 1916: tire irons and a good pump. Long irons are much better than short ones. Of course if you nave to change a tire you will need a jack. I like the Model T screw jack. There may be occasions where you will find a 2x8 block of wood (or its European equivalent) useful to put under the jack. Not tools, but something my traveling experiences have told me I should carry: a spare rear tire and a spare front tire, and a spare tube for each.

IMG_1148 copy 2.JPG
This is not absolutely necessary, but much more convenient for adjusting bands than the standard #1917 wrench.
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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by rainer » Sun Dec 12, 2021 6:23 am

Hello.
As promised, I want to share a few pictures of my finished Speedometer. The wheel sensor is mounted and connected to my dashboard. It is too cold for a test drive, but I moved my Lizzy in my garage to test. It perfectly works.

The sensor has two little LEDs inside. Green is the PowerLED (permanently on when battery safety/main switch is on, red is the TriggerLED, sitting besides the green one. I love LEDs, they allow easy control if everything is working properly. If the LEDs are irritating I can use a piece of black tape to cover them. The TriggerLED goes on when the magnet stick (inside one spoke) is detected. You see absolutely nothing of this magnet stick.
Left rear wheel from outside
Left rear wheel from outside

This is a view from the rear to the left wheel. As you can see, the sensor vanishes between all this rods and levers.
Left rear wheel from inner side
Left rear wheel from inner side
This picture was taken from below the car. Here you can see the second half of the sensor holder.
Left Radius Rod where the sensor is mounted
Left Radius Rod where the sensor is mounted
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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by DHort » Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:44 pm

Rainer

Looks like you did a great job. I hope it continues to work for you once you are able to take it out on a real trial run. Could we also get a picture of your dashboard? How did you run the wiring from the rear to the dashboard? Along the frame? Vielen Dank.

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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:47 pm

You can test at road speeds by running the car with that left wheel jacked off the floor. But the test of survivability will be in actual driving.
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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by rainer » Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:51 am

Hello, DHort,

and thank you for your compliment.

DHort wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:44 pm
Rainer

Looks like you did a great job. I hope it continues to work for you once you are able to take it out on a real trial run. Could we also get a picture of your dashboard? How did you run the wiring from the rear to the dashboard? Along the frame? Vielen Dank.
Of course, I can show pictures of my dashboard, but I only have a few ones at hands. I primarily took this pictures to have them at hands in my office (so I could look for some details there, because the car is 50km away). But you can see how it looks like.

Here you see the finally mounted dashboard.
This is a picture taken at the very beginning of my restoration work, therefore the rest of my Lizzy is still very unfinished. But I think this shows better where my cables are running. The wires from dashboard run along the wooden body (inside the black protection tube) down to closely above the flange of the steering column. There they cross the firewall, and end in an old looking fuses-box with six Torpedo Fuses. From there the cable trunk goes down till 2" above the starter. There I made two additional holes through the firewall. The reason is simple - keep cables away from engine so the engine can be pulled without complications.
Finished install of dashboard.
Finished install of dashboard.

This pictures show the dashboard before it was finally mounted from front and back side. (The green LED above left switch is missing.)
The upper part (where you see the countersunk head bolts, including them) is hidden behind the windshield holder. Also 1/2" of left side is hidden behind the body. It is there to stabilize the dashboard. From this point of view the dashboard appears lots bigger than it actually is. It is in brass, so it matches the overall appearance very well.
The dashboard laying on my working desk
The dashboard laying on my working desk
Dashboard from back side (without wiring)
Dashboard from back side (without wiring)

Here is the oldest picture I found.
Of course, my bolt heads are painted black now. I had to drill a second hole for the right bolt, but actually it looks lots better now than ever before. This ugly chrome switch (must have been installed in USA because direction lights did not work as needed in Europe) on steering column is replaced by the left rotary switch on my dashboard (direction lights), the pull switch is replaced by the right rotary switch (Off - Position Lights - Low Beam - High Beam).
New dashboard mounted besides of old switches from former owner(s)
New dashboard mounted besides of old switches from former owner(s)


Little remark to the first picture:
On first picture you also can see my self-made "inner choke lever" right of the coil-box. I removed the original headlight switch for it, it was brutally painted over in black by the former owner and had no function at all. The choke wire was running through the same hole as the gas mixture adjustment rod, it was extremely ugly. I re-used its hole to insert the 3D-printed and brass painted panel and handle. On engine side another lever is mounted. From there a nicely bent wire goes down to the carburetor.
Last edited by rainer on Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:23 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Can I safely open/close this bolts without wheel removal?

Post by rainer » Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:16 pm

Steve Jelf wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:47 pm
You can test at road speeds by running the car with that left wheel jacked off the floor. But the test of survivability will be in actual driving.
Doing as you suggest will cause a double speed display because of the differential and one wheel not rotating. :D

In addition, this can be done lots simpler and without getting a CO poisoning in my garage, as follows...
I jack up the entire rear axle (I will do that after Xmas because then I have four nice little car stands, one at every wheel.). Then I simply turn one wheel by hands. The other one will turn then in other direction and I do not have to work against the stiff oil inside the High Speed Clutch.

Usual travel speed is ~50 km/h (= 30 mph), the circumference of one wheel is ~2 meters, so I can do the math:
Roughly 416 rpm (or ~ 7 turns per second). -- A little bit sporty, but possible.
On my working table I only moved the magnet over the sensor (had only to move it 4 inches out of my wrist), here I managed to get 99km/h (~61mph) displayed. So the maximum speed will be no problem, only calibration needs to be verified. In spring I will drive with GPS (on my phone) and compare measurements. In worst case I have to change the calibration value in my firmware.
Model T Touring 1916

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