1926 engine missing ??

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1926 engine missing ??

Post by bobt » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:55 am

I'm at my wits end. I was driving my 1926 roadster and all of a sudden it started running strange. Plenty of power under acceleration then when the engine is under no load it starts missing and a bup bup sound from the muffler every time it misses. all misses are at a random intervals (not a steady miss like one cylinder isn't firing) Same thing at an idle. I checked for a vacuum leak with starting fluid with no change. I replaced the intake manifold gaskets anyway and checked for a cracked manifold. All cylinders check out at 60 psi compression. It sounds like something is happening during an exhaust stroke (again, bup bup sound at the muffler) I tried a different carb with the same results New plugs, points and condenser. All valves are at 0.15 lash. bought this car from a man in Tennessee five years ago and it has many upgrades like kevlar bands, bosch distributor, sure stop brakes etc. Everything was GREAT until this problem arose. Any ideas?? (HELP ME!)


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by bobt » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:03 am

I forgot to mention--New dist. cap and wires

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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by ironhorse » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:13 am

Sticking valve, take the valve cover off and have a a friend rotate the engine slowly and watch the valves.
Do it right or do it over,your choice. Drive like everyone is out to get you!


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by bobt » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:46 am

Yes, I did that when I checked the valve lash. All at .016" and moving freely but thanks anyway.


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:09 am

It does sound like a valve issue. It could be a leaky valve, a sticking valve, or a weak valve spring. Valves can move freely when worked by hand or at cranking speed, but still randomly stick at running speeds. A slightly burned or warped valve may seat well in some positions, but rotate as the engine runs and begin to leak, then rotate more and seal better again. A head gasket leak or a crack into the water jacket can cause intermittent missing issues. On again, off again problems can be very hard to diagnose. Given how much of the ignition system you've replaced, I'd look real carefully at the valve mechanism. As simple as they are, they can malfunction in rather bizarre ways. Remember that the camshaft and valve train is a ROM computer, and treat it accordingly.


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:16 am

A weak valve spring(s) can cause issues like you are having. A weak spring can allow a valve or valves to stick, bounce, or "float" due to pressure differences caused by normal impulses in the gas flow at different engine speeds and loads, and so forth. Combinations of these malfunctions can occur.

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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:12 pm

Running too lean, maybe or timing is off for the load. Under load, would require retarding the spark and richer fuel mixture.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:26 pm

Does your distributor have automatic advance?


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:56 pm

Check the slack in your distributor rotor shaft.

If you miss lighting the gas charge, it is dumped in the hot manifold and ignited by the next cylinder that fires.


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:55 pm

Try putting a ground lead from your distributor head to ground.


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by Altair » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:24 am

Try somewhat of a less technical test, pour some water around the spark plugs and see if there are any bubbles. This would indicate a leaking spark plug and a lean mixture. I had a similar situation, with everything correct the engine was still popping, I found the problem when I washed the car and some water migrated in to the spark plugs with a constant flow of bubbles emitting. The pipe thread plugs do not always seal well, some better than others.


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by bobt » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:14 am

Thanks guys. I will try all items that you mentioned. Hes anybody heard of a model T jumping timing? I know a vehicle with a timing CHAIN can do that but I don't THINK a gear to gear connection would do that.(be off a tooth or two) Also, My car has the manual timing adjustment, No vacuum advance. It has the Bosch (VW) distributor arrangement.


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:12 am

If your distributor has worn shaft bushings, it may allow the cam to wobble enough to affect the operation of the points which can cause erratic engine operation. If your distributor's breaker plate moves to change spark timing via the lever, it may have a ground wire from the plate to the distributor body, and the wire may have become loose or broken, or the plate may be too loose in the body. Any internal wiring inside the distributor body can become chafed and cause issues. That can cause intermittent rough running. If the entire distributor body moves to change spark timing via the lever, it may need a ground wire from the distributor body to the engine block. It's very unlikely that your engine has jumped camshaft timing, and if it had done so, it would run very poorly all the time. From here, I suspect you have a valve train issue, but I would also take a close look at the distributor and ALL related wiring. Have you investigated your ignition switch? Does your ignition system include an ignition resistor?


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:01 am

bobt wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:14 am
Thanks guys. I will try all items that you mentioned. Hes anybody heard of a model T jumping timing? I know a vehicle with a timing CHAIN can do that but I don't THINK a gear to gear connection would do that.(be off a tooth or two) Also, My car has the manual timing adjustment, No vacuum advance. It has the Bosch (VW) distributor arrangement.
No such thing as "jumping timing" in a Model T. Unless, you have a stripped timing gear, but then the "jump" will be so huge that the engine will not run.


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by bobt » Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:05 am

All good tips and I will try EACH and EVERY one. My whole distributor turns with the spark lever and does not use an external resistor. The 12 volt coil has the resistor.


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:09 am

In that case, I'd definitely try adding a ground wire between the distributor body and a good engine ground.


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by nicklm » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:12 pm

In the past, for many years, I drove a Model A and there could be a problem with the condensers failing and even a new one could have a problem. You may want to replace the condenser to see if it could be the problem.
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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:26 pm

Once in a while a coil or condenser will act up when hot, and work fine at other times. Ignition problems usually show up under load, but not always.


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:28 pm

Are you using RF resistance type high tension wiring or metal-core high tension wiring? The resistance type is very common, but it does not always work well with old systems, especially 6 volt systems.


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:29 pm

Bad condensers usally burn points.


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by bobt » Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:45 am

Tried all of the above. Still running bad. Seems to run fine under load. Yes, I checked for a vacuum leak. I pulled the intake after checking for bad gaskets. They looked fine but replaced them anyway. No cracks in the manifold. I tried fresh gasoline yesterday with no change. Going to take a few days off and do some research. Thank's guys! bobt


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:48 am

What kind of plugs are you using? My Roadster only seems to like old-style Champion X plugs. Motorcraft & Autolites did not work well.


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by speedytinc » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:29 am

Plug gap??. I acquired an ac plug tester. Under pressure I had 2 that fired intermittently. until I set them @ .024." Plugs didnt like .032.
Something simple to try.

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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by perry kete » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:14 am

My whole distributor turns with the spark advance
This may sound silly but have someone move the spark advance while you watch it to see if any wires are rubbing on something. Check to see if the plug wires to the distributor are too tight and pulling on the wire thus trying to unplug one as it moves and check the plug wire ends to make sure they are crimped on tight.
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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:47 pm

Re: "Still running bad. *Seems to run fine under load.*" That suggests a valve-related problem. Any wiring, including that located inside the distributor body, is suspect. Another possibility is a worn throttle shaft or a throttle plate that is loose on the shaft. Engine to chassis electical ground is suspect, as is the distributor to engine ground. Distributor shaft bushings must be at spec.


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:48 pm

Look for loose strands around wire terminals.


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:56 pm

Robert

for starters and an aside, you will almost never detect a vacuum leak by looking at used gaskets...now with that said, I'll ask "what carb are you running and is it rebuild?"

Every "T" carb made, runs off of the idle circuit until about 20 MPH (high gear). Your statement regarding running fine "under full load" would undoubtedly have to mean "with full throttle" or at least "working hard". This tells me that your idle circuit is running too lean and once the throttle plate is open enough and vacuum is low enough, you are now running through the venturi as a primary circuit, and the idle circuit is less involved in the running of the car.

So: "what carb are you running and is it rebuilt?"
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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:59 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:56 pm
Robert

for starters and an aside, you will almost never detect a vacuum leak by looking at used gaskets...now with that said, I'll ask "what carb are you running and is it rebuild?"

Every "T" carb made, runs off of the idle circuit until about 20 MPH (high gear). Your statement regarding running fine "under full load" would undoubtedly have to mean "with full throttle" or at least "working hard". This tells me that your idle circuit is running too lean and once the throttle plate is open enough and vacuum is low enough, you are now running through the venturi as a primary circuit, and the idle circuit is less involved in the running of the car.

So: "what carb are you running and is it rebuilt?"
Excellent thinking Scott! He did state, "... I tried a different carb with the same results...", but that does not eliminate the possibility you suggest. Nor does it indicate what carb is being used. Anxious to see what comes from this...


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:06 pm

Have you tried richening the mixture when the car is acting up? If you can get away from traffic and get the car to misfire while underway at a steady speed, you might try opening the mixture control slowly and see if that makes it run smoother. You could also try pulling the choke partway out. If you can get the misfire to occur with the car standing still, so much the better. Warm the car up, set the throttle and spark for maximum misfire, and try adjusting the mixture control and/or partly choking the carburetor. Never overlook the possibility of dirt in the carburetor, including a spare carb that you try out. Putting on a different carburetor and opening the fuel valve could flush dirt from the filter bowl into the carburetor as the empty bowl fills rapidly.


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:20 pm

Jerry

I try pretty hard to read each post as well as thoroughly understand the OP topic, but I completely missed the point where the carb was replaced. Thanks for pointing that out...

I am not married to the possibility of carb problems, and others have made some good and valid points for other places to look. Still, the complaint seems to key on the fact that loafing along brings missing and hard work brings joy...that is significant evidence for a vacuum/fuel related issue

time will tell and hopefully the OP will, too.
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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by JohnM » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:24 pm

I'm sorry, but I can't resist Where did you last see it?

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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:35 pm

I was going to add: haven't you found it yet ????


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by bobt » Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:30 am

Scot. I am running a Holly NH. I own two model Ts. A 1926 and a 1915. Both have Holly NH carbs and both have ran fine with one complete turn of the mixture needle. Both cars ran for years with the usual T maintenance. Yes, I've tried all of the above tips with negative results and tried the usual things like timing, bad wires and plugs, turning carb mixture setting from one extreme to the other, bad plugs, points and condenser. The 26 is the one acting up. It has a bosch distributor. I even tried a new 12v. coil (resistor). I had to put everything on hold as my sisters 97 jeep needed a new radiator (what a terrible job. I have always hated working on jeeps) I plan on popping the cylinder head and removing and inspecting the valves soon. My cylinder compression is 60 psi (all four cylinders) hot or cold with throttle wide open. my adjustable lifters are set at 0.15. Thanks again to all who have offered advice. I will keep you updated. bobt


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:06 am

Before pulling the head, I'd pull the valve cover and look carefully at the valve spring tension and see if you can detect any weak springs or excessive wear at any of the valve guides, particularly the intake valve guides. I'd also re-check everything else. It's very easy to overlook a problem.


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:23 am

with 60 PSI on all 4 cylinders, there is no reason to pull the head

the next real step in diagnosis would be to introduce a vacuum gauge into the intake system and identify how it responds when the engine is running properly and when it is not. With your compression, pulling the head will show that it is black inside, and that's about it.
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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by bobt » Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:18 am

will do. probably this weekend. Thanks, bobt


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by bobt » Sun Feb 20, 2022 5:42 pm

OK. I found the problem !!! believe it or not, it was the gear on the alternator sheared a roll pin. The alternator,(yes alternator, 12 volt) was spinning but not fast enough. I don't drive at night so I don't use my headlights. I did notice that my ahoo-ga horn was sounding weak and my amp gauge is all over the place (vibration) I put a new pin in the gear and EVERYTHING is doing GREAT now even my ahoo-ga horn. bobt


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by Norman Kling » Sun Feb 20, 2022 6:24 pm

That's very strange! Do you use a starter to start the engine? It would seem to me that if the alternator was not charging correctly that the first symptom would be a dead or low battery! If the battery is low enough to affect the distributor, I would think it would not be charging enough to keep the battery up enough to start on starter. Did you do anything else when you replaced the pin in the alternator? I believe the distributor runs off the end of the camshaft where the timer would be located. Was that changed in any way?
Norm


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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:53 pm

bobt wrote:
Sun Feb 20, 2022 5:42 pm
OK. I found the problem !!! believe it or not, it was the gear on the alternator sheared a roll pin. The alternator,(yes alternator, 12 volt) was spinning but not fast enough. I don't drive at night so I don't use my headlights. I did notice that my ahoo-ga horn was sounding weak and my amp gauge is all over the place (vibration) I put a new pin in the gear and EVERYTHING is doing GREAT now even my ahoo-ga horn. bobt
That's great Bob! Hopefully, you did not use another roll pin, but instead, the solid style pin, as original. That's what roll pins do, unfortunately.

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Re: 1926 engine missing ??

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sun Feb 20, 2022 8:11 pm

Might want to wipe out the contact points with a paper business card with carb cleaner sprayed on it. A little oil/grease there will really have your head scratched bald (Ask me how I know). Everything done eliminates that idea! I agree with Scott on the leaning out condition.

Hank

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