Re-run On LED Headlights

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MadMax
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Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by MadMax » Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:25 am

I’ve looked at a bunch of different threads about LED lights and as simple as it seems, I couldn’t find specifics discussed regarding use of LED headlights as replacements for magneto headlights.

I’ve got a ‘15 Touring that has no generator/starter. I’m currently running 12V incandescent lights on mag. Obviously, they aren’t putting out a ton of light, but I’d rather the dimmer lights than replacing lights that blow.

I saw this (below) on eBay and the pins/contacts look correct (are they?), but I’m worried about whether LEDs can run on dirty power from a mag.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LED-Headlight- ... 632-2357-0

Has anyone used these, known anyone who has, or have general thoughts about these?

For long term future readers (after ebay purges the item), here’s the text and one photo:
LED headlight bulb for Model A Ford, Model T Ford and early Ford V8 cars - #1188 with BA15d base. Offered in a Warm White (3000 Kelvin).
This ad is for 1 (one) WARM White (3000 K) bulb.
Works on either 6-volt or 12-volt, either positive ground or negative ground. Bulbs are 5-30 volt, non-polarized.
For low beam, the outer row on both sides (top and bottom) is illuminated. For high beam, BOTH rows of LEDs light up on both sides.
Almost 3 times the brightness of the original bulb at a fraction of the amperage draw:
Warm white LED is 90-95% of that (86/130 CP).
Only 0.8 amp (less than 1 amp) draw for low beam; 1.4 amp draw for high beam
Fits the original Model A headlight socket. No modification required. No alternator required
These are so efficient you can run your generator at a lower setting, which will make it last longer. Running these bulbs barely shows on the Model A ammeter. I literally left them on in my Model A for 12 hours and the battery still started the car. I run LEDs in all my lights.
[/50][image][/image]
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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by Mark Osterman » Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:44 am

I tried them on my 1923 runabout with the standard H style headlight lenses and didn’t lime the patter they projected. I think they work better with plain lenses.


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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by Cap » Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:10 am

I've used this lamp on a battery '13..
https://www.ledlight.com/led-headlight- ... -beam.aspx

Granted this is 6 volt.. but they have 12's.. I'd just purchase a few and see what happens..

Cap

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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by TRDxB2 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:37 am

Magneto's put out varying AC voltage. Most LED bulbs expect DC, but there are some that are + independent. I'm confused by you saying "I’m currently running 12V incandescent lights on mag." I would expect them to burn out. The bulbs you I’m currently running 12V incandescent lights on mag. Anyway here is the same bulb for half the price from a supplier used by members
https://www.ledlight.com/led-headlight- ... rized.aspx
Now reading between the lines
"The led headlamp is a constant current device so the brightness will not fluctuate.... Made with leds on both sides so for low beam only one row on both sides is illuminated for high beam both rows of leds light up on both sides. The reason the leds light up on both sides of the led headlight is to simulate the original filament by splitting the led into to sides. The reason the led has to be split up on both sides is because the led light CSP only can light up to 120 degrees. Since to emulate the original filament two 120 degree CSP leds have to be used to properly reflect light of the headlight fixture. Available in White 6000K - 6500K. Upgrades the 32/50 CP bulb up to 94/141 CP incredibly bright led headlight. Please do not look directly at a lit led. Made with CSP leds for optimum led/filament alignment. LED headlamps work with a generator or an alternator. Since this led is rated from 5 to 30 volts, this bulb works great in 8 volt Fords. This bulb works excellent in the 6 volt positive ground or negative ground Fords.
--
--
I would interpret that the run on a constant current device would mean DC not AC, magneto, current. So you might need to regulate that. The CP noted was for the bright white light not the warm light your were looking at. This supplier has both.
NOW the issue with headlight bulbs is that there is a difference between looking at a brighter headlight versus looking a a brighter road ahead. The reflector in the headlight has a specific focal point where the light source needs to emerge from to optimally project the light. Light outside that focal point is unfocused & dispersed broadly
Here are some diagrams to help visualize how things work
--
reflectors.png
--
Focal Point.jpg
--
The job of the lens is to direct the light in a specific direction.
high-and-low-beam-reflector-and-focal-distance.jpg
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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:42 am

"5-30 volts non-polarized" .... Based on that, I'd think they'd work OK on a magneto, but the brightness would probably vary at least somewhat with varying engine speed. The varying AC frequency might cause problems. The Model T magneto makes pure AC across a broad range of voltage and frequency. You'd probably get good results using these bulbs in conjunction with a 12 volt battery and one of the magneto battery charger outfits.The battery would supply a fairly steady voltage/current source for the lamps. Run the lamps off the battery, not the mag output wire.

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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by TRDxB2 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:47 am

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:42 am
"5-30 volts non-polarized" .... Based on that, I'd think they'd work OK on a magneto, but the brightness would probably vary at least somewhat with varying engine speed. The varying AC frequency might cause problems. The Model T magneto makes pure AC across a broad range of voltage and frequency. You'd probably get good results using these bulbs in conjunction with a 12 volt battery and one of the magneto battery charger outfits.The battery would supply a fairly steady voltage/current source for the lamps. Run the lamps off the battery, not the mag output wire.
We added at the same time. The fine print says "The led headlamp is a constant current device" so I doubt they are intended for AC and as you point out the magneto puts put varying voltage - so if they would work they would be brighter the faster one goes - BUT would the light be focused on the road or on oncoming drivers?
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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:56 am

"Non" polarized probably means that it will work on positive or negative ground, and may not mean that the device will tolerate AC supply. The Model T non-electric car is probably the only passenger vehicle in wide use that had an AC power system. These lights would no doubt work in a Model A or in a T with battery/generator. The T magneto is a different animal, but using a battery to power the lights and adding the light bulb/rectifier mag battery charger device ought to work well. That would isolate the LEDs from the mag AC and provide a fairly steady voltage/current source for them. You'd still have lights with the engine off, too. Hi/low and beam focus would be less than ideal, I'd think.


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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by MadMax » Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:22 pm

Hey Cap, does your ‘14 run off a magneto or do you have a generator and battery.

I’ve got a ‘21 I’m working on that has a generator and battery, so all of the suggestions relating to battery connections will come in handy when I start playing with that. :) :) :)

When it comes down to it, I’m an electrical ignoramus. When you speak about electricity, you have to speak reeeeeally slowly and reeeeeeally carefully. This is me when you guys are talking about electricity… call me ‘Ginger’. Hahaha

[image][/image]
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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by TRDxB2 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:34 pm

MadMax wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:22 pm
Hey Cap, does your ‘14 run off a magneto or do you have a generator and battery.

I’ve got a ‘21 I’m working on that has a generator and battery, so all of the suggestions relating to battery connections will come in handy when I start playing with that. :) :) :)

When it comes down to it, I’m an electrical ignoramus. When you speak about electricity, you have to speak reeeeeally slowly and reeeeeeally carefully. This is me when you guys are talking about electricity… call me ‘Ginger’. Hahaha

[image][/image]
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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by Novice » Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:25 pm

Max. tried a bunch of different model T headlight led bulbs including the wedge ones. What I found was the wedge ones must have original OEM sockets so the bulb filaments are both horizontal. most after market sockets have the wrong filaments orientation causing the headlight beam to move sideways when switch is changed from on to bright instead of up and down. The wedge bulbs are extremely bright and can blind on coming drivers if You don't switch to on / low beam. They produce a funny light pattern with a C or U depending on the OEM or reproduction sockets. I prefer the barrel type leds plenty bright come in 6 and 12 volt. filament orientation is no problem. I have a T with two different headlight sockets one vert and one Horiz no problem. has hi and low brightness.
LED lights .com
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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by Luke » Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:47 pm

Max,

It seems to me you've got two issues here. The first is whether LED's will light up at all with your present setup, the second is whether the resultant headlamp beam will be satisfactory.

My reading of your original post is that you're more interested in the first question, at least initially? In any event think it makes sense to concentrate on that question - there's plenty of discussion you can later read around the relative merits of different bulbs and how they cast a beam via the T headlamp, once you've actually got them to light up...

So, although I've never had anything to do with one, my understanding is that some early T's that used the magneto for lighting were wired so that the headlamp bulbs were in series (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong!). It's something you should probably check first, and the simply way to test for that is to see what happens if you take one bulb out of a headlamp; if the other one stops working then you've got series wiring, if the other one is a little brighter then your bulbs are wired in parallel. Incidentally you should only do this with the motor at idle.

Completing that test may assist in advising you the best path to getting the LED's working satisfactorily, or at least be in a better position to help if it doesn't work first time.

Overall this conversion is not hard, it's just a matter of making it as simple and reliable as possible. Reliability-wise I'm inclined to agree with Pat regarding the use of a rectifier and battery, but it does add a little complexity.

For your interest - I use LED's in my T and A, they provide a much better light output at considerably reduced current draw. I trialled several 'bulbs' before coming to a conclusion as to which was the best, it seemed to me the few dollars I invested in the process was well worthwhile.


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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by Cap » Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:41 pm

The '13 runs off battery, and I have a Magneto charger and running an E-Timer..

Not sure if the LEDs I linked will run off AC, but the Groat LED turn sigs that I hacked up to run 6 Volt were set up to Run AC or DC.. it has a Diode bridge to fix it so the lamps always are biased Foreward.. AND they have a Zener Power Circuit to try and Maintain proper Foreward Curent through the LEDs.. so they stay mostly the same bright, even when the Voltage Changes.. rather slick design for so few components

Cap


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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by MadMax » Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:48 pm

Hey Luke,

You are correct. I am looking to determine whether the bulbs fit and work. My plan isn’t to drive at night either (unless emergency calls for it).

Regarding the setup, the car is traditionally wired in series and with original socket equipment.

I’ll be giving those barrel ones a shot since they are cheap enough.


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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by MadMax » Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:49 pm

Thanks, Cap! I didn’t understand a whole lot, but I think enough to get the gist. The most important point is that your setup is a bit different.


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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by Allan » Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:53 am

Frank asked, would the light be focused on the road or oncoming drivers? I'd change the question to would the light be focused? Without a pinpoint light source like that provided by the standard bulbs, the parabolic reflector in a T headlight will not allow proper focusing. Sure, LED's will put out much more light, with much less current, but it comes in big white blobs of indeterminate shape, with little chance of directing same where it is needed without it being offensive to oncoming drivers.


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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by MadMax » Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:48 am

Hey Allen, that’s a good point regarding the oncoming drivers. I guess I can give it a try and see what happens. On the bright side (pun intended), I only use the ‘15 during the daytime, so I’d be curious to see if using them as a day-running light will be an issue.


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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by Luke » Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:18 pm

Allan wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:53 am
... Without a pinpoint light source like that provided by the standard bulbs, the parabolic reflector in a T headlight will not allow proper focusing....
Allan, it's worth noting that the original incandescent bulbs are not a 'pinpoint' light source. In fact the tungsten filament emits light across much of its length - similarly to some LED 'bulbs' that have several emitters mounted in a row.

Other LED bulbs can have a single emitter that is much closer to what you might term pinpoint, albeit they're typically still larger than the point of a pin ;-) Either way I've had no issue appropriately focusing the beam from my LED light sources within the standard T or A headlamp.

Max, it'll be interesting to hear what you come up with. In theory, wired in series, the voltage across each LED should end up being in the range of 2.5V-15V, assuming the mag puts out ~5V-30V, and the LED's draw exactly the same current. Although I've never actually completed any empirical research I'd imagine that the LED's are more precisely manufactured than the incandescents and as such should have a more equal light output between the two sources.

Anyway, you may find that at lower RPM there's insufficient drive to light the LED's in series, so a re-wire to parallel may be in order.

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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:45 pm

MadMax wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:25 am
I’ve looked at a bunch of different threads about LED lights and as simple as it seems, I couldn’t find specifics discussed regarding use of LED headlights as replacements for magneto headlights.

I’ve got a ‘15 Touring that has no generator/starter. I’m currently running 12V incandescent lights on mag. Obviously
, they aren’t putting out a ton of light, but I’d rather the dimmer lights than replacing lights that blow.

'''''''']
Something is seriously wrong with the wiring if the above is true. If they are 12v incandescent running on mag, the fact that they are DIM would be why the haven't burned out, even mag bulbs burn out and have a higher voltage rating.
--
--
The word "pin-point" in the context of a reflector depends on the design of the reflector. Its like a magnifying lens - things can be "in focus" within a small range, anything outside that appears as blurred and unfocused yet it can be seen . So LED bulbs make the lens brighter but not necessarily projecting a concentrated beam of light forward. Again, the lens partners with the reflector to projects the available light forward. One of the reasons the plain flat glass lens was changed to a fluted design on Model T's
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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by MadMax » Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:29 pm

I think we’re on the same wavelength (pun internet.. again). I’m intentionally running 12v (knowing they will be dimmer) so they won’t blow.

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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:59 pm

If you have a '15 Touring then and the 12v bulbs are dim - then its likely the '15 is wired with the headlight bulbs in series as mentioned above. So how are you wired and how will you rewire
non-starter 2.png
Non starter firewall switch on coil  box.png
or are the headlights withed like this
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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by Luke » Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:13 pm

Frank, I wonder where that image in your 8:45 post came from? It looks to be comparing LED tail-light/indicator 'bulbs' to a later incandescent bulb with regard to headlamp focal points?

I'm not sure it's the best comparison; FWIW the LED's I use are specifically for headlamps and do not have the additional light throw that would likely result from LED's such as those depicted (which clearly have quite a broad light source).


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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by Allan » Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:32 pm

Luke, can you find the specs for the bulbs you use? Also, are they approved for road use by the motoring authorities? If approved, they may well be what we are looking for.
I find it hard to believe that the combination of a single parabolic reflector and the fluted Ford lens can satisfactorily be designed around for any combination of led's to be accurately focused to an acceptable beam, but we can always hope.
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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:38 pm

Luke wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:13 pm
Frank, I wonder where that image in your 8:45 post came from? It looks to be comparing LED tail-light/indicator 'bulbs' to a later incandescent bulb with regard to headlamp focal points?

I'm not sure it's the best comparison; FWIW the LED's I use are specifically for headlamps and do not have the additional light throw that would likely result from LED's such as those depicted (which clearly have quite a broad light source).
The diagram was my own making to help explain the meaning of pin-point. There are many designs of LED 1156/1157 replacements. 1156/1157 bulbs are indicator bulbs, BA15 (horizontal pins) and BAY15 (off-set pins) bases respectively. 1156 is a single action running/turn signal while the 1157 is dual action running/turn signal & brake light. The suffix applied to the base indicates the internal contacts S for single or D for double. Now the headlight filament bulbs that the vendors sell are actually 1188 bulbs 50/32 candle power. Note that the reflector is what magnifies the CP of the bulb to a 50CP bulb may project 20,000 CP and it is the lens that aims the light. Again a very bright lens doesn't mean that the light is focused, in fact if viewed from different angles the amount of difference indicates what is actually being aimed.
I have include two 1188 filament bulbs for sale. The first as its filaments one higher tan the other, while the second seams to have them more pointed and closer together. So which would be better in a Model T reflector - pointed is more pin-point. But it may be that the reflector was designed with two focal points, one for high beam and one for low as the other diagram shows. Who knows...
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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:03 pm

You do not plan to drive at night and only want something for an emergency. If that is the case, and it is for an emergency only, do you want something engineered that has never been done before and risk the obvious possibility of a malfunction the one and ONLY time you need it?

I have a '15 which will/does see the exact use you are calling for. I put in a car battery and plug a battery maintainer into it every 9-10 months and am done with it. It's a stem-winder...no starter, no generator, and starts easily on MAG or BAT. Generally, the car battery is solely for the lights and for the current draw, could be driven all night without killing the battery. I should think that could serve any emergency night use you could imagine.

why all of the fuss to go to LED's? Put in proper reflectors and incandescent bulbs will blind the other driver equally as well as with an LED and can actually be focussed so as to NOT blind the other guy.

What exactly am I missing?
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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by Luke » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:05 pm

Alan, I went through several lamps before I came across one that I felt was satisfactory. They came from China and I can't be sure of their specifics, but I think I may have put up a photo of them before? If I can find that I'll pass it on.

As for 'approved', I expect that'll depend upon where you are in the world. I doubt the lamps I selected have any official endorsement, but then again neither have I seen any AS/NZS/ANSI declarations on the base of any tungsten filament bulbs :mrgreen:

Frank - thanks for the explanation. I think you'll see some detail on reflector design in a new thread I started, if it's not there I'll put it up.

Scott, personally I like the LED's, in my case with a 3-brush generator I can dial the current right down so it doesn't cook the battery but will still keep up sufficient supply for the lights at night.

Otherwise I apologise for the thread drift, it seems we've got away from Max's original enquiry. To that end I've put up a separate couple of posts in another thread that may provide further fuel or information, depending upon which way you lean ;)


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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by MichaelPawelek » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:07 pm

I personally prefer the LED’s to incandescent bulbs for night driving.
Image

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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:30 pm

Michael

It appears that you have either a really bad, or a poorly focussed reflector in your driver's side headlight.

With primarily forward aimed light from an LED source, condition of the reflector can be generally ignored without rectification, as well as aiming/focusing. If the primary objective is to simply blast light down the road with no regard to the poor sap coming at you, well then that's fine, and LED's will sure do it. Believe it or not (and generally the consensus will be "not") either 6V or 12V incandescent lighting in good condition can safely project to, or just beyond the line of sight that a 30 MPH vehicle needs. If the issue is the difference in current draw LED vs Incandescent, well, LED does win hands down, and putting sheer ugliness aside, those would be the choice.
Scott Conger

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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by Allan » Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:44 am

Scott, I'm with you." If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

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Re: Re-run On LED Headlights

Post by Novice » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:28 pm

Max. barrel leds must be wired in parallel.
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they have bulb types for either 6 or 12 volts. the wedge bulbs might work ok on a mag. they run on 6-30 volts ac/dc and would maintain about the same brightness regardless of engine speed. but they too must be wired in parallel. be interesting

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