1920/21 Touring dating question

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20touring
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1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by 20touring » Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:50 am

Question: My ‘20 Touring has the 5 piece back section and is an August 30,1920 build date. I have an old title from Illinois from 1948 stating it as a 1920.
But I have read that the new model year began August 1st and have wondered if my car actually is an early 1921.
Opinions?


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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by kmatt2 » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:19 pm

That is a interesting time period at Ford. In late 1920 Ford took all the parts they had on hand and made cars and sent those cars to the dealers on sight bills. The dealers had to pay Ford for those cars or loose their Ford dealership. Henry Ford had big loans due in early 1921 from buying out the Ford Motor Co from the share holders. Your five panel back touring would be typical of 1920 cars but they were made in 1921. I would due more study into Ford in this time period if I were you but if I had to pick a year model today I would call it a 1920.


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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by John kuehn » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:46 pm

I have a 21 Touring that has the 5 piece back. From what I’ve read on this forum and looking at the encyclopedia concerning build dates and etc I don’t think there’s no clear ‘date’ when the dating of those years is really close.
Left over cars that were actually built in 1920 and sold later in 21 were titled the year they were sold and and that was it. Even if Ford wrote a memo about a body or part change dated a certain date the change may or may not happened until months later. The dealers had to sell the cars they had and then they sold at a later date and that was what was on the title.
The engine no. was earlier than the actual sell date and that’s where the confusion comes from.
There have been cars that were known to be original that had the 5 piece back and were titled 1922 so go figure??!! And that was a owner that was on the forum a few years ago.

I’ve come to believe the only time a car in that time period was really correct was when it rolled off of the assembly line but after that who actually knows for sure where it went.

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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by DanTreace » Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:03 pm

Kevin

Bruce McCalley covered the change in 1921 with the 'new body style' of 3 panels, seems the change occurred over time, so both are found with 1920 and 1921 dates of engine assembly. Would be OK to keep your T titled as 1920, since it has those features.



1921 MODEL YEAR DATES: August 1920 to August 1921.
BODY TYPES: Touring, Runabout, Sedan, Coupe,
Chassis and Truck.
MAJOR MODEL YEAR FEATURES
A new body for the tourings had been announced in June 1920. Similar to the earlier style, the rear section was now three pieces (instead of five), with no vertical seam on the rear side quarter panel. Seats were lower and had higher backs. The older style body continued for a time before the new one became standard, perhaps into 1921. (Some sources even say late 1921.) The runabout continued in the earlier style until late 1922 (1923 cars)
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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by George House » Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:12 pm

Be happy you have a title at all. Lots of us purchased Midel Ts from heirs on a bill of sale. Then have to wrestle with our States to obtain a title.
I don’t know why I turned out this way. My parents were decent people 🤪

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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by George House » Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:14 pm

Be happy you have a title at all. Lots of us purchased Model Ts from heirs on a bill of sale. Then have to wrestle with our States to obtain a title.
I don’t know why I turned out this way. My parents were decent people 🤪

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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:27 pm

20touring wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:50 am
Question: My ‘20 Touring has the 5 piece back section and is an August 30,1920 build date. I have an old title from Illinois from 1948 stating it as a 1920.
But I have read that the new model year began August 1st and have wondered if my car actually is an early 1921.
Opinions?
viewtopic.php?t=23713&p=181996
"If the Encyclopedia states 1920 year from Aug. 1919-Aug. 1920 and you have evidence that the build date was 30th of August, in the defined range, that would make it a 1920, But as many have stated in numerous discussions, the transition to a new Model involved the consumption of the existing part inventory. Also, part distribution didn't always arrive at assembly plants on a specific date. A previous discussion noted that engine dates could also be misleading. Think the experts would need to see some pictures to help you understand and what information you have to have determined a August 30 build date."
The problem with dating a Model T is that our thinking is biased by modern car manufacturing processes and documentation methods.
--
--
If you car is titled as a 1920 and the engine number matches a 1920 its best to call it a 1920. The fact that the body pieces are not in concert with 1920 can be perceived by others as either - Ford's consumption practice of using existing inventory or original parts were damaged for some reason and replaced with what was available in the area at the time. I'd go with consumption ;)
I suggest that you go through the lists of changes for 1920 and 1921 to see what other differences there might be
1920 https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc20.htm
1921 https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc21.htm
Here are some subtle some visual checks/changes . Its likely some of the other differences may have been replaced over time
For 1920
APR 23 Acc. 575, Box 12, #795, Ford Archives Pressed-steel muffler, experimental design, 500 per day. P/N T-1200C.
JUL 20 Acc. 575, Box 13, #807, Ford Archives Hood and hood handle redesigned to eliminate rivets at the handle, for production.
For 1921
SEP 7 Acc. 575, Box 14, #813, Ford Archives Forged brake rods, T-891B, T-1513B obsoleted and replaced with T-804 for 1921 production.
APR 1 Acc. 575, Box 14, #832, Ford Archives Oil holes in the frame rails for the brake lever shaft discontinued. Now if you have these then the frame is 1920 or other year
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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by John kuehn » Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:24 pm

That’s a BIG plus since you have a good title. As others have said don’t worry about it and enjoy your T!
Lots of things have most likely been changed over time and it may not be real noticeable.
People would go to the wrecking yards and find a T part that would fit whether or not it was for your paticular cars year or not.
My 21 Touring is around 95% correct and I’m happy for that.


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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:18 pm

Too many people have too much trouble with this. The simple fact is that Ford did not follow any hard and fast rules about model years.
There are at least five different years to be considered. Calendar year which may include the believed build date, model year which Ford NEVER really followed during the model t era, style year which often was not following the 'model' year, fiscal year which was all about bookkeeping and had little or nothing to do with style changes, and of course the often incorrectly recorded license year.
Add in the fact that branch assembly plants often made changes at different times than others did, and things really get confusing. Crossover times varied greatly. Some changes might have very short crossover times when both earlier and later variations might be used at the factories for only a few weeks. Other items often crossed over for months, especially when changes needed to be made to casting patterns which would be used for as much as a year while new molds would be made from the patterns and themselves used for weeks or months. The engine one or two piece valve cover is an example of that, both styles were used for over a year of crossover time. The five to three piece rear tub of the touring car body is another example of a very long crossover. Empirical data suggests that both styles were used throughout 1921 and maybe into 1922 calendar years.
Ford was so bad about continuous changes, that I have gotten to the point of identifying some of my Ts by month and year built. I used to refer to my coupe as an April 1924 coupe. Research showed it was the third significant variation of the 1924 style coupe body. Changes had been made in the wood structure under and behind the seat, as well as a change in the body molding by the windshield. Additional changes were made later, including changing to all steel doors for the 1925 models.
My 1915 runabout I often call a Spring 1915 because although the body is date coded as being manufactured in February of 1915, the original engine and serial number were lost to time a long time ago. So I can only guess that it was completed soon after that. Since Ford was having so much difficulty getting the new style bodies delivered at that time, they were often installed very quickly after delivery. So it is possible my February1915 body could have been installed and completed by the end of February, or likely before the end of March.
The 1914 "style" open cars were manufactured into April of 1915, due to production delays of the 1915 "style" or "model" of open car bodies. Many thousands of 1914 style model Ts were manufactured during 1915 style and/or model year. MOST of those that survive are incorrectly called 1914 cars, when in fact they should be better identified as 1915 built 1914 style cars. Ford dealers when they were new simply had to sell what they had, and they weren't going to point out that it was last years model if they didn't have to.

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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by DanTreace » Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:06 pm

model year which Ford NEVER really followed during the model t era,
Ford advertising did mention new year models.
IMG_1944 (640x424).jpg
IMG_1953 (640x426).jpg
And automotive publications of the day usually announced the 'new model year' of the many brands of cars, in this magazine issue, the Ford line for the 1921 year is covered., in this case the publication made notice of no change in the Ford line of vehicles offered in the 1921 model year.
Image 7-8-21 at 4.47 PM.jpeg
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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by Erik Johnson » Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:36 pm

In the U.S., vehicles are described by model year, not the date of manufacture. The model year, "1921" for example, is an adjective, not a specific point in time.

Also, the concept of and adoption of model years and by automobile manufacturers is almost as old as the U.S. automobile industry itself.

Titles and registrations do not determine the model year of a car. Manufacturers determine and assign model years to the vehicles they produce, not state government agencies such as the DMV.

If your motor serial number is August 30, 1920, the car is not a "put-together," and the motor is original to the car, it is a 1921 Ford regardless of what the title says.

There can be various reasons why the car is listed as a 1920 on a title issued in 1948. For example, if the car sat for many years and someone applied for a new title in 1948, they may have provided the wrong year due to ignorance or intentionally to misrepresent the car. Both of these situations are not uncommon in the antique car hobby. Tom Reese use to call it "the dating game."

Stating that model years are sometimes incorrect on titles or registrations is due to the date the car was originally sold and when the original title or registration application was made may or may not hold water. While it does sound logical, unless you have studied the history of automobile registration and titling in each state, in my opinion you can't make the claim.

Here is a good example: my father started in the antique automobile hobby in 1948, a time when you could still buy cars from the original owners.

In 1952, my father bought, from the original owner, a very nice, original/unrestored 1920 Model T Ford touring that had a September 1919 motor serial number. September 1919 is the second month of the 1920 model year.

The original owner provided expired Minnesota registrations with the car (back then Minnesota did not have titles, only registrations) so there would be no problem transferring ownership and obtaining a current registration. From new, the car had always and correctly been registered as a 1920 Ford.

My dad didn't own the car long - he flipped it to make money and he already had a nice 1917 touring.

The subsequent owner registered it as a 1920 Ford, just as it had been previously registered by the original owner since new.

Over the past 69 years, the car passed through the hands of a few more collectors.

About ten years ago, the owner of the car at that time had the model year on the title and registration changed to 1919. When we asked why he did that, he said it was because the car was manufactured in 1919 and a 1919 Ford is more desirable and valuable than a 1920 Ford. The fact of the matter is the car is a 1920 Ford: it was produced, marketed and sold new during the 1920 model year as a 1920 Model T Ford and for 90 years it had been correctly registered as a 1920 Ford. It's unfortunate that the car's true history was ignored and the model date is currently and intentionally misrepresented on the title and registration.

Just my two cents.....


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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by nicklm » Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:10 pm

Our car was TITLED in CA as a 1925 since it was made in August of 1925. However it was the new and improved Ford. I tried to have it registered in FL as a 1926 since it had the gas tank under the windshield, etc., and have a 1926 historic FL plate. The DMV told me to go to the Ford dealership and have it authenticated and bring back a letter before it could be changed. As if they would know.

This went on for a couple of trips until I brought in the bible with the production numbers that had motor numbers to show it was a 1926. A young DMV worker had no problem looking at the book and gave me the revised FL title for 1926. Seemed too easy thing with the right person. You might deal with the issue with the use of the motor number as it is listed in the book and not the construction.
Nick

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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:22 pm

If you think Ford did not have model years, consider that the first Model T's, made in 1908 and sold in October of that year, were called 1909 Fords.

http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG90.html
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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by 20touring » Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:27 am

Interesting replies! I have read that the new “model year” began August 1st of the previous year, but also in the era of my touring a specific date went out the window, so to speak, and generally the month of August was used.
From a sales perspective to create “buzz” for the new models it seems logical that you would want to designate a start date for the new model year.
But with the high demand for the model T back then, that seems like it would be less important to the factories and more important to dealers in the field.
Although my Touring is what I would consider a low use survivor car (the original engine is gone-still looking!) it is all original sheet metal.
Given the information provided by members here, and the 1948 title, I am convinced that it is in fact a 1920.
Many thanks to all!
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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:01 am

I've seen old advertising for various makes that referred to a feature as being "new for the 1912 season", for instance,, or something to that effect. I believe that Ford considered making but one model a selling point, and had a slogan somehting like '"One model only, with continuous improvements". Ford ads in the late 1920s stressed the fact that the newest, "improved car" was NOT a new car, but essentially the same as the first Model Ts produced, which it was. The 1928 Ford WAS a new car, and after 1931, Ford brought out new models every year, excepting the war years, with new styling and substantial structural and mechanical improvements.


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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by J Sundstrom » Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:05 am

From one August 1920 Touring to another!
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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by DanTreace » Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:51 am

Believe that each 'model year' changes are very difficult to determine, and makes naming the year of your T a bit of a dilemma. ;)

My 1924 or is it 1925 touring is in that boat. This T is all original find, never messed with and intact with parts from the branch factory assembly as far as I can determine.

Interesting is the engine serial is Aug 26, 1924 date of assembly. The body has the front door hinges of a '25, the upper wind shield frame with the holes for mirror and wiper, and seems a real '25. The engine however has the 3-dip pan, which is odd because the 4 dip pan first used July 18. The hogshead is the improved with the cast-in 'flipper' to sling oil on the bands, first used July 17. Lastly the front fenders are the ones with the narrow embossed bead that rides along side the splash shields, the wide bead fenders were noted by B. McCalley to be late 1924 , so obviously the late must have been after Aug. by several months. So not all '25 model year have these wide bead fenders!

Original title from TN stated 1924, which is what I used when acquired in 1977. But....I refer to it as a 1925 :D


scan0009 (2) (575x481).jpg
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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:17 am

Dan, which hand brake quadrant does it have?
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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by speedytinc » Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:10 pm

Steve Jelf wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:17 am
Dan, which hand brake quadrant does it have?
Does it have the tool tray behind the gas tank, 26 style carb linkage with the matching dash?


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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by Original Smith » Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:26 pm

Another topic would be was your car originally a non starter model, and if so, was Ford putting in the standard battery carrier by then, or was an earlier design used? For awhile, Ford was riveting a starter switch plate to the frame prior the the standardization of that switch.

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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by TRDxB2 » Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:35 pm

This has nothing to do with year, but I am just curious about what I see in the photo. Maybe just an illusion.
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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by Chris Haynes » Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:44 pm

In CA I have found it very easy to get a title. As long as the vehicle isn't registered in another name. Simply fill out an Application for title. A Statement of facts of where it came from. Have the serial number verified by DMV or sometimes CHP. Pay some money and walk out with your plates. Keep it simple. Don't volunteer any information not asked for. NEVER TELL THEM THE VEHICLE WAS BUILT FROM PARTS!!!


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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by 20touring » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:36 pm

TRDxB2 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:35 pm
This has nothing to do with year, but I am just curious about what I see in the photo. Maybe just an illusion.
Oh that! Lol...one of the previous owners did this front and rear-took a torch and heated the springs on the ends near the eye to drop the body because he didn’t like how high it was.
I...can’t logic that one out! May have been an idea born out of too many trips to the still? :lol:
I have the lower leaves necessary to return them to original ride height.


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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by 20touring » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:42 pm

J Sundstrom wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:05 am
From one August 1920 Touring to another!
Hey John! Very nice, the level I hope to have mine at someday-can you post some more pics of your car?


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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by 20touring » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:04 pm

Original Smith wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:26 pm
Another topic would be was your car originally a non starter model, and if so, was Ford putting in the standard battery carrier by then, or was an earlier design used? For awhile, Ford was riveting a starter switch plate to the frame prior the the standardization of that switch.
This car was starter equipped and had all the electrical equipment from day one as far as I can tell. One thing I did change was the windshield brackets so I could add the kerosene lamps. Just a personal preference and I wanted it to look like the one my grandfather had back then. Kept the original brackets though.
Interestingly, I don’t think it had the demountable rims originally as there was no spare tire carrier and the frame has rivets where the bolts would otherwise go for the carrier.
I picked one up years ago and intend to put it on. The demountables were something I wanted on a T and when I bought this car they were already on it with the later “Ford” rims, which I sold/horse traded for the correct wide lug Hayes rims.

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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by TRDxB2 » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:46 pm

20touring wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:36 pm
TRDxB2 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:35 pm
This has nothing to do with year, but I am just curious about what I see in the photo. Maybe just an illusion.
Oh that! Lol...one of the previous owners did this front and rear-took a torch and heated the springs on the ends near the eye to drop the body because he didn’t like how high it was.
I...can’t logic that one out! May have been an idea born out of too many trips to the still? :lol:
I have the lower leaves necessary to return them to original ride height.
been done
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Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by 20touring » Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:09 pm

Original Smith wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:26 pm
Another topic would be was your car originally a non starter model, and if so, was Ford putting in the standard battery carrier by then, or was an earlier design used? For awhile, Ford was riveting a starter switch plate to the frame prior the the standardization of that switch.
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Battery holder pic:
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Last edited by 20touring on Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Topic author
20touring
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:33 am
First Name: Kevin
Last Name: Mocyk
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1920 Touring
Location: Warners NY

Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by 20touring » Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:13 pm

Another pic showing starter switch bracket:
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J Sundstrom
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:48 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Sundstrom
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1920 Touring
Location: Vulcan, MI

Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by J Sundstrom » Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:58 pm

Kevin, Here’s a few more pictures of my Touring. This one is August 20 engine number. Had to laugh as I had the same experience as you regarding the spare tire carrier. I bought one when I was working on car. Seeing that I would have to drill out crossmember rivets I decided to leave off. Mine is a starter car and had demountable rims on it. Has some earlier features like earlier style non stamped metal steering spider, and die cast/plated ignition switch, forged running brackets. My starter switch is just as yours with mtg base riveted to frame.
If you are ultra purist should have clear headlight lens and The heavy metal strip at the base of the rear curtain. (Classtique top & interior). Family owned since early 70’s so we owned 1/2 it’s life.
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Topic author
20touring
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:33 am
First Name: Kevin
Last Name: Mocyk
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1920 Touring
Location: Warners NY

Re: 1920/21 Touring dating question

Post by 20touring » Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:01 pm

Wow! She’s a beauty John!
My car too has the forged running board brackets & die cast Ignition switch.
The metal strip is there for the bottom of the rear curtain but it has some extra holes drilled in it that a previous owner had snaps mounting the old rear curtain top. I plan to fill those in with my MIG welder when I get rolling on the restoration. But if it doesn’t work out, thank you for the vendor recommendation-I guess those strips are difficult to find from what I’ve been told.
I have been on the lookout for a pair of clear lenses just to have them but no luck-any ideas?

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