How much is 1917

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Kurt in NJ
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How much is 1917

Post by Kurt in NJ » Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:56 am

This is my first T, the engine has a April 1917 number, in looking at parts it seems 1917 is transitioning year, I am curious how correct it is ,mostly so that I can know enough to get parts that fit. It had no compression and turned over real stiff at first till I got oil worked into it ,when I drained the oil the piece of rivit was laying on the drain plug, it looks like it was rusty and rattling in something, does it look like a part of the engine/ transmission, or more likely something that fell in.
I hope to have it running before Christmas, even if it just for limited driving --- I can't let it progress into a restoration at this time, I am hoping my evaluation that will be "good enough " works out.
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Mark Chaffin
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Re: How much is 1917

Post by Mark Chaffin » Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:34 am

Looks like the rivit that holds the magneto field coil contact insulator in place.

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Oldav8tor
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Re: How much is 1917

Post by Oldav8tor » Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:50 am

I have a 17 built in September of 16 and it has a number of 1916 parts. I would like to see closer views of some areas of your car to determine whether the parts are correct but it does look 17ish. The one glaring discrepancy is that 17's had clear glass headlight lenses....

Check whether the sockets for the top bows are oval or square. 1917 was the last year for the oval. I should also note that demountable wheels were not available in 1917 although many owners made the switch when they became available. My car has 30 x 3.5 demountables all around and I wouldn't have it any other way.... I have no interest in patching a tube by the side of the road. You will notice in the photo of my 1917 Touring that I have a spare mounted on the left running board - 1917's didn't come with spares so it is up to you whether you carry one and how you choose to mount it. Word of caution about wheels - give the spokes a good shake to determine if any are loose. If they are, I suggest it is time to think about re-spoking. You don't want your wheel to come apart on you when you're driving down the road.

I'm not sure about the rivet....however, anytime you find such an object in the oil pan it is cause for concern. You don't want something coming apart and causing catastrophic damage. Hopefully someone who knows more about engine & tranny internals will chime in.

This forum as a great source of info, but if you haven't done so already, I would suggest tracking down a MTFCA or MTFCI chapter in your area and enlisting the help of some of their more knowledgeable members to evaluate you car and suggest how you might proceed. Model T people are the most helpful I have ever encountered.... they've all been where you are now.
Good luck!
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Steve Jelf
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Re: How much is 1917

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:13 am

If we're looking for parts that are "wrong" for 1917, you can include the demountable wheels. Obviously they fit, but were first used on some Fords in 1919. It's not rare to see them used on earlier cars for convenience. Strictly original wheels for 1917 would be non-demountable with rounded wood felloes, round spokes, 30 x 3 front and 30 x 3½ rear, painted black. "Natural" spokes became an option in 1926.

If the mystery rivet is from the magneto contact insulator, I believe you can look into the hole with the mag post removed and see if it's missing from the insulator.
The inevitable often happens.
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George House
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Re: How much is 1917

Post by George House » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:09 pm

The head gasket on the cowl (like your pic) wasn’t OEM until 1923.........just kidding.....I think the windshield hinges were of equal length from ‘15-‘17 then changed in ‘18. If I’m wrong on this you can be sure someone will ‘correct’ me.
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Re: How much is 1917

Post by John kuehn » Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:10 pm

Could it be a rivet that holds the transmission band ears on? Can’t tell for sure on the size comparison by the screwdriver.
Also thinking it may a rivet that’s used for mounting the pan ears or ??

Since this is your first T you’ll find different ideas about being “correct” for whatever year your car may be. Some will want things just right for the year that they have and others
will use or have parts on their car that people would use from a later year car and use those.

For now I would get your T running and driving like it is and then go from there. More than a few people use the later demountable rims as is used on your car. Ford was improving the T’s along the way and most but not all parts would fit. After a while people would figure out it was easier to change a flat that way then doing the old way of prying off the tire, patching the tube and replacing the tire which isn’t fun on a muddy road in the cold of winter. That was a big improvement for the T’s that still had the older style wheels.


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Re: How much is 1917

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:44 pm

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Topic author
Kurt in NJ
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Re: How much is 1917

Post by Kurt in NJ » Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:33 pm

Just looked, it has removable ear bands now, perhaps it's from previous bands, but yes that does look like what I found

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Re: How much is 1917

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:28 pm

The fluted headlight lens were not introduced until 1922 so say past discussions http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/375833.html
(vowel art shows plain glass for 1915-17). The headlight buckets might be incorrect as a result. They should have the focus screw above the bulb, 12 o'clock as opposed to at 9 o'clock.
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Re: How much is 1917

Post by John kuehn » Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:42 pm

It sure does look like it’s a band ear rivet. When you have the transmission cover off and if you take off the pan cover you could check for anything else that looks suspicious. It would be interesting to see if there is anything else in the dips in the pan bottom cover.
Since you have the head off you could also help the engine cooling by cleaning the water passages in the engine block and the head. Every little bit helps when it comes to cooling!

Good luck in getting it running! You’ll have plenty of time to get it more correct as you go.
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Jerry VanOoteghem
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Re: How much is 1917

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:44 pm

Kurt in NJ wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:33 pm
Just looked, it has removable ear bands now, perhaps it's from previous bands, but yes that does look like what I found
Removable ear bands are only removable on one end. I'd check out your bands...


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Re: How much is 1917

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:50 pm

The windshield hinges were changed along about mid 1917 model year. Early 1917s had the even fold, late 1917s had the offset hinges.
The 1917 model year model Ts were a bit different. They crossed over from the brass era into the black era, and had several minor details that were used for only a short while. Very few 1917s are properly restored with all the proper unique features (like the fan shroud used for only about half the year!).
Don't get too hung up on what isn't right on your car yet. Get it running, get a feel for driving it. Then, later, decide how many things you want to change. If you choose later to make it "really right"? Then you can decide what month it appears to be from and find out all those little details and timelines. If you choose to keep it more how it is and enjoy it this way? That is fine also. Model Ts have been running and used and maintained for over a hundred years now! A car wearing all its badges (changes necessitated by maintenance) is a part of its history!
Steve J (one of our finest!) covered the wheels quite well. And the windshield hinge has been mentioned. Another obvious change is the back curtain of the top. Early 1917s had the "tombstone" window/light like was used throughout most of the brass era. Mid/late 1917s used the three tall narrow window/lights used from mid 1917 into the early 1920s. The two almost square window/lights came out about 1923 and was used for only a couple years. If I recall correctly? I think 1925 used a one year only single window/light on the rear curtain. I don't know what the 1926/'27 used (too modern for me?), I think it was also single window, however the entire top is slightly different than the earlier ones.
A lot of replacement tops used the two nearly square window/lights on earlier tops. A good photo of the side of the car showing the top would help to determine if the top is a correct two-man variety. A 1917 should have oval top sockets. The square top sockets came about 1918/'19.
I am curious to see a couple side views of the car.


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Re: How much is 1917

Post by John kuehn » Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:01 pm

Looking again at your car it looks like it still has the engine pans still on it. Over time owners would take them off so they could a little better access when working in the engine area. Also the wooden dash may have been replaced with a replacement but that’s still original for your 17.
Hopefully since its a non starter car and the magneto ring is still OK and the flywheel magnets (Magneto) still have enough charge still in them to run your car. Does it have the Hot Shot battery in the car somewhere? That would help get non starter cars a boost.
Non starter T owners can add more about that than me. The 3 T’s that I have are a little later than yours is and have starters. Ford added Starters around 1919 for another improvement.

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Re: How much is 1917

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:13 pm

They should have the focus screw above the bulb, 12 o'clock as opposed to at 9 o'clock.

I thought that was just for 1915, but the MTFCI guidelines show it through 1918.
The inevitable often happens.
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Kurt in NJ
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Re: How much is 1917

Post by Kurt in NJ » Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:31 pm

I am mostly curious about how much is original,not going for a points car, I know about the wheels, and scrounging a spare and bracket is added to my searches, it's complete enough that I can make it drive, at this point just local is ok, I am going through the steering and brakes, greasing everything, it's a new challenge, and I will get to use tools I haven't used before.---- and I don't know enough about posting photos to correct the rotation
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Re: How much is 1917

Post by Erik Johnson » Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:46 pm

Before asking others to pick over your car, I suggest providing the motor casting date and serial number and the body date. The body date should be on the passenger side front floor riser - either stamped directly into the wood or stamped on a metal plate.

Your top irons are 1918-1922 model year. The top material has been replaced - it may have been replaced during the 1920/30s during the period of the car's original use. The top pads appear to be original, especially since you can see the white canvas duct inside one the pads.

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Re: How much is 1917

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:17 pm

Vertical format photos often show up sideways here. Try this: Before posting the photo here, open the file on your computer, rotate it 90% (left or right doesn't matter), rotate it back to upright, and save the file. Now go ahead and post. I don't l know why, but that works for me.
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Re: How much is 1917

Post by Erik Johnson » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:51 pm

After I click on the photos in the posts to enlarge them, the orientation is correct.


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Kurt in NJ
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Re: How much is 1917

Post by Kurt in NJ » Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:51 pm

The engine has April number, I will look for the body's data, I haven't seen any metal plates--- yet, I am just going to sew up and patch the top pads and glue/sew patches on the top for now. The worst stuck bolts have been the 2 rear head bolts , very little rust, can still see die stamping scratches on the frame rails, the coils have 1962 dates except one with 58 date, $7.95 written in pencil, the rear is dry on the outside and still full of oil.
To me it seems like a 60s "restoration " of what was a decent car


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Kurt in NJ
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Re: How much is 1917

Post by Kurt in NJ » Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:27 pm

I found the data, 3-17. 546. 22
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Re: How much is 1917

Post by Erik Johnson » Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:48 pm

I see someone put a screen/storm window bowtie clip on the riser to hold down the floorboard.


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Re: How much is 1917

Post by Erik Johnson » Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:54 pm

What you show indicates a March 1917 body date and the other numbers would be the body serial number.

Note: the month and year are usually separated by a dot and then there is another dot followed by the body serial number. If you do see a dash, that most likely is a nick or gouge that occurred at later date.

In any event, because the body is March of 1917 and the motor serial number is April 1917, that is a good indication that the body and motor are original to each other and your car is not a "put-together."

Out of curiosity, what is the casting date on the block?

Worth mentioning: my father has a July 1917 touring that he bought unrestored from the original owners in 1949. I have an unrestored May 1917 roadster with known history from new. The casting date and motor serial number on my car are only a couple days apart.

There is also an unrestored June 1917 touring referred to as the "Rip Van Winkle" Ford that was purchased and then immediately put into a garage and stored until 1937 when it was auctioned off after the original owner died. A number of photos of this car have been posted on the forum over the years. I also have number of photos of this car.

All three of the above 1917 Fords were sold new in Minnesota and were most likely assembled at the plant in downtown Minneapolis.

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