Metal Dash Wiring Process

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
Banjoe
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:17 am
First Name: Joe
Last Name: Lucas
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1927 Tudor
Location: Winnipeg
MTFCA Number: 50498

Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by Banjoe » Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:50 am

I’m curious about the wiring process used on metal dash Ts.

I’ve seen videos of wood dash cars having the bodies dropped onto the chassis and just a bit of connection work done before the complete car is driven away. I noted that the wooden dashboards are in place on the chassis so all the wiring was completed before the body is slipped into place.

The metal dash on our 1927 Tudor isn’t part of the chassis so I’m wondering when the wiring was completed for these later cars.

I don’t think all the wire connections were done after the 2 major assemblies came together so am wondering if the dashboards were completely wired to the chassis and then connected to the body when it was dropped into place.

I’m asking out of curiosity but also because I have this wiring chore ahead of me and would like to know how Henry conducted the process.

Many thanks for your thoughts - Joe
None of us is as smart as all of us.

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 6463
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:12 pm

As you noticed, the 26-27 firewall is part of the body. Were the chassis and body wired separately then connected at the terminal block when the body went on the chassis? Or was all the wiring installed after the body was on the chassis? I don't know, but it would be whichever took less time to do.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


Chuck Regan
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:58 am
First Name: Chuck
Last Name: Regan
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Roadster Pickup
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
MTFCA Number: 50122
Board Member Since: 2019

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by Chuck Regan » Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:48 pm

Joe - not sure how the factory did it, but I recently rewired my ‘26 RPU - every cable and wire including light sockets and thimbles. Pretty straight forward job - chassis wires to terminal block; wired ignition/light switch loom through the dash and firewall hole to terminal block.
I don’t know if the Tudor is more complicated than the Roadster, but I’m sure you will get plenty of support on the forum.

User avatar

DanTreace
Posts: 3299
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:56 am
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Treace
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '23 cutoff, '25 touring, '27 touring
Location: North Central FL
MTFCA Number: 4838
MTFCI Number: 115
Board Member Since: 2000
Contact:

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by DanTreace » Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:12 pm

The Improved Car simplifies install of wiring as the coil box is on the engine and all wiring for the chassis is on the chassis , battery and cables too before the body drop.

So undoubtedly the switch wiring to the combo switch on the dash is done, and the 5042B switch loom run to and fitted on the terminal block on the firewall.

All that was needed is to wire the lighting wire harness 5041E to the block after the body drop.

46EEFBD6-FEC0-452A-A113-5360933A7160.jpeg
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford


John kuehn
Posts: 3907
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Kuehn
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 19 Roadster, 21 Touring, 24 Coupe
Location: Texas
MTFCA Number: 28924

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by John kuehn » Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:38 pm

You didn’t mention if you are restoring the car or just wanting to rewire it as it is. Either way it’s pretty straight forward on a completed car restored or not.
Wiring diagrams for T’s are readily available so you can follow it and the wirings sets are color coded.
If your rewiring the car do one harness at a time. Usually there is one for the timer generator, one for the coil box to ignition switch and a lighting wire.
I may not have listed them exactly as they should be but you can go to a parts suppliers catalog or page and order the wiring sets for your paticular car,

Take off ONE wire at a time and use the new wire and so on and so on. You can’t go wrong just take your time.


Topic author
Banjoe
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:17 am
First Name: Joe
Last Name: Lucas
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1927 Tudor
Location: Winnipeg
MTFCA Number: 50498

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by Banjoe » Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:46 pm

This restoration has been going on for almost 60 years now and retirement has given me the time to finally get at it. This is a frame up recovery process and it's moving at a super slow pace.....but still a lot faster than during the previous 55 years.

There is no original wiring remaining and I have a new set of wiring ready to be installed and connected. Checking the older car videos, I noticed that the wiring was all in place before the body was attached. I couldn't figure out how the newer metal dash cars were slipped together so quickly without having a lot of the system prewired. Henry must have figured out how to do the wiring efficiently and with maximum time saving. If it worked for him, I figured that his system would work for me too.
None of us is as smart as all of us.


Original Smith
Posts: 3284
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
First Name: Larry
Last Name: Smith
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13 Touring, 13 Roadster, 17 Coupelet, 25 Roadster P/U
Location: Lomita, California
MTFCA Number: 121
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 16310

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by Original Smith » Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:02 pm

When I wired my '25 I looked at each photo in the service book to make sure I had every wire placed exactly like Ford did. I also had genuine Ford looms reproduced exactly, with the original Ford tags woven into the looms. Perhaps the looms have improved since I restored the car ten years ago. I ordered a set of looms from Langs that were supposed to be show quality, and wasn't happy with them, and gave them to someone else who isn't as fussy as I am.

User avatar

TRDxB2
Posts: 5410
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:56 pm
First Name: Frank
Last Name: Brandi
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Speedster (1919 w 1926)
Location: Moline IL
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:08 pm

This is a clip from a YouTube video
I don't think it matters if its wood or steel in this photo because the assembly process wouldn't change for this shape firewall
Ford Model T Assembly Line (1919) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf8d4NE8XPw
wire rack.png
--
This video show placement before the body is put on
1920's Model T Ford Cars Being Manufactured https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e3orWGmQ-o
Attachments
arnessed.png
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger


John kuehn
Posts: 3907
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Kuehn
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 19 Roadster, 21 Touring, 24 Coupe
Location: Texas
MTFCA Number: 28924

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by John kuehn » Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:38 pm

I think Steve Jeff makes a good point about wiring on the 26-27 cars. Most of us who restore Model T’s use Fords methods to a certain extent when restoring Model T’s. Frame, axles, engine first. Then different aspects of the body assembled on the frame.
Ford was wanting to the do it fastest way he could on the assembly line for production.
We aren’t trying to match every way that Ford did it but still doing it in sub assemblies at some point and a lot slower.

As far as the wiring is concerned it can be done on the body after it’s put together or before as it was done on the 25 and back cars since the firewall was separate. But it still can be done after the firewall is already mounted on any T. Separate firewall or not.
Every thing is relatively easy to get to and that makes it pretty straight forward.


Topic author
Banjoe
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:17 am
First Name: Joe
Last Name: Lucas
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1927 Tudor
Location: Winnipeg
MTFCA Number: 50498

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by Banjoe » Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:08 pm

Original Smith, you have me a bit (well, more than a bit) concerned about wire quality.

I have a complete set of Lang's wiring looms on the shelf ready to go when there's something to connect to but your comment about the quality causes pause. What should I be looking at for shortfalls and what would my wiring option be if I tossed these looms out?

Many thanks for any thoughts,

Joe
None of us is as smart as all of us.


Scott_Conger
Posts: 6431
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13, '15, '19, '23
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:24 pm

You're going to be fine. If purchased from Lang's, then use the loom you purchased with no fear, unless you are worried about someone from CA confronting you at a car show claiming that the thread count on the loom is not per original. In that case, if not the loom, it would be something else.

While you're doing it, strongly consider the addition of a single 25A in-line fuse that Lang's also carries...it is cheap insurance. If anyone makes an issue on this subject to point out that blowing this fuse while driving will cost you a generator, then you can add a small fuse to the generator's field coil and tuck it inside.
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured


speedytinc
Posts: 3840
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:24 pm
First Name: john
Last Name: karvaly
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 14/15 wide track roadster. 23 touring, 27 roadster pickup, 20ish rajo touring
Location: orange, ca
MTFCA Number: 14383
Board Member Since: 2020

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by speedytinc » Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:05 pm

Only issue in harnesses I have found. Some cheaper looms are crimp only terminal ends.
Make sure your terminal ends have all been soldered, otherwise they will eventually oxidize & loose contact.


Topic author
Banjoe
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:17 am
First Name: Joe
Last Name: Lucas
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1927 Tudor
Location: Winnipeg
MTFCA Number: 50498

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by Banjoe » Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:48 pm

I am quite relieved to hear that there should be no worries about the Lang's wiring looms but now I"m getting worried about being called out by a CA authenticity expert. But, then again, I'll never travel that far in this T so perhaps I should worry about other things instead.

The comment about soldered ends will be addressed as this restoration process is a lot of work and I don't want to have to come back to repair &/or replace work that I'm trying to do as best as I can. Do it right and do it once was sound advice that I've gotten along the way.

I did order the inline fuse when I sourced the wiring, again following expert advice. Seemed like cheap insurance and, even if not totally authentic, it could help avoid some bad outcomes. Hard to argue with wise T folk especially when having virtually no experience in most things regarding the mysterious Model T.
None of us is as smart as all of us.


Scott_Conger
Posts: 6431
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13, '15, '19, '23
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:18 am

...BOT....
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured


Original Smith
Posts: 3284
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
First Name: Larry
Last Name: Smith
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13 Touring, 13 Roadster, 17 Coupelet, 25 Roadster P/U
Location: Lomita, California
MTFCA Number: 121
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 16310

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by Original Smith » Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:20 am

When I restored my '25, I used the Ford Service book as a guide for the location and routing of all the wiring.


John kuehn
Posts: 3907
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Kuehn
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 19 Roadster, 21 Touring, 24 Coupe
Location: Texas
MTFCA Number: 28924

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by John kuehn » Fri Jun 16, 2023 2:46 pm

Rewiring a T is pretty straight forward. Follow the diagrams in the Ford Service manual or numerous others that are out there. You probably could rewire the ignition switch first. If you can get to the ignition switch easier do that since you have a 27 Tudor. You necessarily don’t have to rewire your car the exact steps Ford did but from an assembly line he did it the fastest way he could.
Simply follow the wiring diagrams and you can do it any way you want to. T’s have been rewired countless times with the car being completely together.

User avatar

DanTreace
Posts: 3299
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:56 am
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Treace
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '23 cutoff, '25 touring, '27 touring
Location: North Central FL
MTFCA Number: 4838
MTFCI Number: 115
Board Member Since: 2000
Contact:

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by DanTreace » Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:39 pm

You’re trying to reply to an over 2 year old post!

As Scott noted. …BOT…!

The poster who brought this thread back to life is using ChatGPD. He entered the first sentence of the original question and ran this reply in AI. So that is the odd post that re-surfaced this thread!!!
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford

User avatar

Susanne
Posts: 1045
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:06 pm
First Name: Susanne
Last Name: Rohner
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Late '15 touring, "Angel".
Location: Valfabbrica, (central) Italy
MTFCA Number: 464
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 1999
Contact:

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by Susanne » Sat Jun 17, 2023 4:03 am

My WAG on this is someone somewhere asked a question to the ChatGPD bot, it found us, and now it's decided to spread it's unfailing wisdom to the club... :lol:


Topic author
Banjoe
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:17 am
First Name: Joe
Last Name: Lucas
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1927 Tudor
Location: Winnipeg
MTFCA Number: 50498

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by Banjoe » Sat Jun 17, 2023 8:53 am

I'm still working on the wiring for this 1927 Tudor but the body isn't ready to go on the chassis. In the interim, I've constructed a wooden firewall that holds the wiring and a small temporary gas tank so the engine can be operated and, hopefully, I will be able to wobble up and down the street.

My original question sprung from watching old films of Model T factory construction that showed the bodies being dropped onto the the frames and the cars being driven away almost immediately. This worked well when the firewalls were already in place on the frames allowing the wiring to be in place before the bodies went on.

However, the metal bodies with attached firewalls have all kinds of wiring connected to the chassis and the body so I wondered when the various wiring components were installed and connected to ensure the quickest assembly line process.

There are some valuable and insightful comments above and I thank you all for your ponderings and observations.
None of us is as smart as all of us.

User avatar

DanTreace
Posts: 3299
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:56 am
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Treace
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '23 cutoff, '25 touring, '27 touring
Location: North Central FL
MTFCA Number: 4838
MTFCI Number: 115
Board Member Since: 2000
Contact:

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by DanTreace » Mon Jun 19, 2023 10:52 am

Joe

The Improved Car '26-'27 came along with improvements to assembly line too.

As for your wiring questions, the chassis was wired at ignition, and lighting looms as it chain drove down the line, note the 15th Million, coil box on engine, wires to plugs and timer already on the engine during engine drop.

ModelT4.jpg
The body was fitted with the switch wire loom before the body drop, as dash and switch plate were in prior.
ModelT1 copy.jpg

Note the switch loom sticking out the firewall as the lighting loom headlamp wires dangle below the lamps
ModelT1 copy 2.jpg
Lastly would be the tail lamp wire to the rear fender. Battery and starter foot switch loom would have been installed on the chassis.

Closed cars would be done the same.

214093.jpg
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 4308
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1919 Centerdoor, 1924 TT C-Cab Express, 1925 Racer
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Metal Dash Wiring Process

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Jun 19, 2023 11:42 am

Thanks for the photos Dan ! I noticed the modification to the manifold side of the engine picker to "clear" the Vaporizer carburetor - don't believe mine will do that !
Attachments
KRW engine grabber.JPG

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic