MTFCA Forum

I’m stumped with this one. Background is it’s from a very old antique autoists estate. Obviously NOS throughout. Just as pristine as an item can ever be found nowadays, with original shellac finish overall, and great patina on the metal parts. Uses a later Key to operate the switch. The switch housing is old timey Gutta Percha, or more likely bakelight. Switch housing shows a handmade but very professional machines finish, not something molded. The rest overall shows a very professional construction.
My uneducated guesses are a very early prototype K-W coilbox, or something era aftermarket or pirated. I cannot see a name, marking, cartouche anywhere, but then I may not be looking in the right place. Any thoughts or ideas are welcome.

The craftsmanship of the box looks to good to be a survivor or even a restoration. The switch mechanism is the same used in the 1914-22 boxes with a different backing plate. The dovetails on the coil unit and box are different size than that of older coil unit pictures. Many of the old coil units were dovetailed top & bottom not the sides. The thickness of the black top plate is also much thicker than those in the old pictures as well.
One of a kind?

Thanks for the thoughts, Frank. Keep ‘em coming. I’m doing a couple more pics, but can say , from my decades of antique repair and refinishing, this box is absolutely very old, but in really pristine condition. Unused condition. I sure don’t know it’s it’s 100+ years old, but it is NOT contemporary, 50-60 years old. Some pics and more thoughts on the way.

Inside wood dividers have shrunk enough to slide in and out easily. Poplar wood, shows patina even from being inside the case forever. Sometimes referred to as “air burn” Note stain just on the top edge where it would be noticed.

Note the coil construction. The box jointed case has a bottom that has been glued on with hide glue, and they have shrunk because of the cross grain situation. The glue has let loose on this joint only. Hide glue is unmistakable, when bottoms were taken off. ALSO, note the light scribe line on the box joints. This likely wouldn’t have been done or used on a mass produced item.

Light scribe lines on box jointed coils. Sanded away on some before shellacking

Frank, Good idea to count the box joint sizes. That may help.I will measure them tomorrow. Hope RV gets back in the saddle soon!

Dropacent wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:09 pm

Thanks for the thoughts, Frank. Keep ‘em coming. I’m doing a couple more pics, but can say , from my decades of antique repair and refinishing, this box is absolutely very old, but in really pristine condition. Unused condition. I sure don’t know it’s it’s 100+ years old, but it is NOT contemporary, 50-60 years old. Some pics and more thoughts on the way.

I didn't mean to imply that it was recently made. I would agree that it may have been made 50-60 years ago. It must have been stored very well for the box to have retained its luster. When did reproductions parts start to emerge, 60's -70's?

Parts were pretty plentiful still 50-60 years ago. In my opinion, highly unlikely someone took the time to make a reproduction of this box at that point. Had it been done then, it likely would have been a correct copy of an original, and not a one-off.
This came from a big stash of old stuff, all real stuff, including a one cylinder Cadillac motor. Lots of early brass. Got a lot of measurements tonight, and will post tomorrow. All the shrinkage in the right places. I also made out FORD script on the coil points. I know very little of coils and their history, so maybe looking at the points and their construction can help date it better.

Check this out different Heinze
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/82 ... 1519919768

Tim-
The bottom of the coilbox looks like the Heinze type that was used on the Model R. (Not sure about N and S) The contacts come through the bottom of the box instead of through the dash, like on the Model T.
As Frank pointed out, the switch looks like it has the guts of a '14-'22 KW coilbox.
The points are clearly KW type, '14-'27.

I know only a little about the NRSK fords. However my guess is that someone was restoring a Model R (or N or S?) and made a reproduction coilbox and coils based on the original construction, but used later T parts, switch, points, etc. The coils may even have KW primaries and secondaries in them. I think the restorer used the resources he had at hand to replicate the entire assembly that would look good and get his car down the road. Since it is in pristine condition, I speculate that the restorer eventually found an original coilbox and coils to use on the car.

Of course Heinz made coils for different automobile manufacturers too, so it might not be for a Ford!

The craftsmanship is remarkable. It looks like coil work that was done in the pre-RV era.

: ^ )

Keith

We (me) tend to think fords were the only cars made, but in truth, just half. Thanks Keith, the coil is very close to the Heinze size, and with the right switch and new side latches, could be a very good and credible replacement for the NRS heinze box. Need to see what the very early heinze coil size is. Perhaps that’s the way forward for this item. Thanks for all the help. N photo courtesy of Jerry Van

Keith is correct. The box is post-era and is rather loosely based on the 1907 Heinze box used on the Model R. I have built several of these, along with the correct coils. They are a ton of work to build correctly, just like Heinze did, right down to the correct adjusting sticker pasted inside the lid, but once finished they are very reliable and simple to adjust. The same basic coil unit was also used on the Model K, but different enough on the bottom that they will not exchange.

Thanks All! I found a good home where it’ll live on with a pre-T Ford. I cannot imagine the work that goes into these, you are a Gem, RV ! Glad you are back in circulation. Keep busy and safe!

I believe the whole thing was made by a very talented woodworker not to mention the electrical end of it. There are so many late coilbox parts involved, whoever did it deserves a ton of credit.

I love it! Congratulations to whomever gets to use that on their NRS Ford!
The workmanship is beautiful, and appears well thought out.
My first thought when I saw the pictures, especially of the switch using a 1917 to 1922 switch as a base? Was how much alike it was to a "faux wood" coil box I began building a few years back for my mid 1913 speedster! I did something very similar for the switch, only not quite so nice. I used a switch like that one, and encased it in cast plastic. I made a round metal cover for it with a fitted lever underneath instead of the removeable key. I never finished the lid for it because shortly after I installed the box onto the firewall of the car, I stumbled into the "buy of the month!" At a junk store, I found a genuine 1913/'14 steel coil box complete with the correct lid, all porcelain and electrical pieces and all in very nice untouched original condition. For $15.
I was torn between finishing the lid, or using the nice correct steel one? But, frankly I like the looks of the faux wood one on the car. So if I can get past several more urgent projects, I think I will try to finish up my fake one. (Which isn't nearly as nice as this one, but still looks pretty good on the car.)

Sorry for the drift.