MTFCA Forum

Posted: **Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:06 pm**

As a newcomer I was questionning myself about the speedster in the model T market. How is it viewed by the collectors and purist. Is it considered as a real T or just a handmade car ? It is defenitely not the market Ford was looking when he introduced the model T. It is more like a rich kids toy not for the the farmer or worker class.

Is there a real market for a properly built speedster ?

I have thoughts about building one to my taste but is it a waste of time and money? Again not a matter of any profit but will it sell when time comes ?

Posted: **Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:29 pm**

Practically no T project is a profitable proposition, whether "purist" authentic, a "parts salad" DIY, or a speedster. I think it's safe to say the entire gamut of Ts exist pretty much to gratify the desires and vision of their owners. Let whatever you find affordable, available and fun as your notion of "model T-ing" dictates, and "welcome to tge affliction !"

Posted: **Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:49 pm**

I've had the affliction a LOOOONG time ago in anything that has a motor.

I'm just trying to figure out what the motel T hobby is !
I know that is some car brands some are just seen as not a real car and simply rejected.

Posted: **Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:03 pm**

From my perspective, a T speedster is a T if it is primarily T-based as far as the engine and frame. Custom bodywork should be made of wood, sheet steel, leather, brass, etc. Originalist purists probably do not agree, but there are speedster purists, I'm sure, who insist on period parts and materials, and there are people who can and do hand build T-based speedsters of exceptional quality and appeal with many hand made parts. From my perspective, OHV V8 powered T-bucket type cars are Hot Rods. Fiberglass cars are replica cars, to my thinking, and some are very nice, but they're in a different class than a "Henry steel" car or a car built with accurate, Ford-pattern steel repro sheetmetal or a steel speedster body of recent manufacture.

Posted: **Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:33 pm**

Maybe I should have said COMMUNITY instead of market.

Posted: **Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:35 pm**

Have a look at the NWVS website and the photos of some of the cars there.
https://www.nwvs.org/CarPhotos/CarPhotosAlpha.shtml
I expect many of those are valued higher than stock T's.
Harry

Posted: **Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:43 pm**

There is a certain group in the club which really likes speedsters and takes them to "Speedster Runs". Some of them also drive them on tours.
Then there are others who enjoy working on the cars and restoring them.
There are also"daily drivers" who use them every day for their regular car. Others like to show their cars and keep them in pristine condition with all authentic year appropriate parts.
Then there are others who like to get them mechanically sound, but leave the bodies looking like they have been in a barn for 100 years. They like to drive them in that condition.
There are some who like to have the car basically Model T but might be a mix of parts from various years and new reproduction parts to keep them going..
Then there are some who like to modify their cars with auxiliary transmissions and brakes, and distributors and alternators and 12 volt systems.
There are also some who like to add speed equipment like overhead valve conversions, or high compression heads or longer stroke crankshaft and remove the magneto. Some use oil pumps or different carburetors.
Anyway, you get the idea. We all belong to the same hobby and how we use our cars differs with each member.
Norm

Posted: **Thu Dec 23, 2021 9:00 pm**

Hello and welcome to the Model T community.

I too am attracted to anything with a motor.

I own a 1913 Speedster, it is all 1913 parts with period correct speed parts. It is all metal, original fenders, hood, running boards, and aftermarket metal bucket seats and tool box.

It is well received in all of the Model T, and Horseless Carriage events we attend. The purists do not seem to mind at all as it received 2nd place at the Huntington Beach Concourse in the Brass Car Division.

I say build what you like and have fun with it.

Ron

Posted: **Thu Dec 23, 2021 9:22 pm**

Claude

I wish I could give you a ride in my Speedster and you would understand what it is. Definitely not a rich man's toy. It is creativity. It is youth. It is speed.

I like to explain it was a broken down car found by a young man in a farm field. He dickered with the farmer and convinced the farmer to let him have it for $20. Some how it was dragged home where the young man and his friends worked on it until it ran. What a thrill, What an accomplishment. I have a car! I can race at the local fairgrounds, win, and get $10. Now I bust my butt saving up money so I can buy a $12 carburetor and I will go faster. Change the rear end gears and I can go faster. Have my friend who works in a shop where he can mill the head and I get a little more speed. Won't Bobby Sue be impressed. I have the neatest car in the city. Now she will go out with me because I am COOL!

Speedsters are inexpensive and and have a place of their own in history. They do not loose their value. Their is a subset of Model T owners that love the look and ride of a speedster, and many have another Model T in the garage. Do I want to go slow today, or do I want to go fast?

It is not the car that Henry designed. It is something that I brought to life. It is part of me as an individual. I can change it and yet it is still a Model T.

It is ME!

Posted: **Thu Dec 23, 2021 9:28 pm**

[Search domain mtfca.com] https://www.mtfca.com › speedster-hall-of-fame

Posted: **Thu Dec 23, 2021 9:41 pm**

I am a speedster guy. I like stock Ts, but I just like a speedster more. In my opinion, speedsters are definitely Ts and the have an important roll in the Ts history. But, each speedster is custom car the reflects one persons vision. A vision that others might not share. As such, they may not be as easy to sell. There are some period survivor speedsters out there that are collectible and desirable. The value also depends a lot on the parts involved. A rare/desirable head or other speed stuff in running condition would command a premium.

I am still working on mine and I love that it is my vision. I have a rule that to go on the car it (or it’s equivalent) has to have been available in 1927. For example, I am planning on running a modified 2 tooth model A steering box, not available in 1927, but a virtually identical steering box was available for the T from Ross. I am modifying the box and mount to be like the Ross box. I would love to have a Ross box, but have never seen one and if I did it would be worn out. But, everyone sets their own rules. I find that my version of the 1927 rule does not restrict me at all. I have a Rajo B head that I am rebuilding snd I am building a mahogany skiff body. When I am done it will definitely be my car.

Posted: **Thu Dec 23, 2021 9:56 pm**

Wow thanks a lot guys ! This place is wonderfull. I understand perfectly how it is now.

I think I'm learning model T world has a place for everybody. Unique I think !

Posted: **Sun Dec 26, 2021 8:00 pm**

Undoubtedly I’ll get a little flack over this, but here’s my perspective. Most antique car hobbyists that don’t like Model T speedsters, dislike them because the owners/builders/restorers don’t stick to the era with mechanical components, and yet expect to be a part of antique automobile events where there are restored historical vehicles. What I consider “our segment” of the hobby, ended in 1927. Looking back, Model T Speedsters to a large degree were an extension of the Mercer Raceabout or Stutz Bearcat for the guy who couldn’t afford one. Barney Oldfield, race car driver extraordinaire and the two aforementioned iconic speed cars were everybody’s dream in the early part of the 20th century. Today it’s very important for us to remember that we’re in a restoration hobby. Anyone can create something using more modern (than 1927) components and build a very fast “street rod”. Our segment of the hobby should consist of correct era parts manufactured prior to 1928. They don’t have to be Ford factory parts but any component or copy of a component that could have been used in the day. You may be creating, but done in the mind set of “the style and what was available and would have been used by someone building/modifying this car in 19_ _ (you pick the year).” You want it to go faster, use era components and mind set, keeping in mind as you are building and restoring, something that would have been seen on the road prior to 1928. Keep it within our era and you’ll gain the respect of most of the car hobby (not just Ford) purists, even those that don’t necessarily like Model T speedsters.
Ed aka #4

Posted: **Sun Dec 26, 2021 8:48 pm**

You know, Ed, I don't really have an affinity for speedsters, and can state with certainty that I did not look at it like you have, nor could I have articulated it; and yet, reading your post, I can say with certainty that I agree with every aspect of it. There is a huge difference between a RAJO powered Mercury (for instance), and a modern-bodied speedster bedecked with all manner and year of Detroit accessories. I suppose in reflecting, I do at least have a strong appreciation for vehicles such as the RAJO described above, while the modern re-creation of no-car-that-ever-existed will likely always leave me cold. I have no trouble appreciating a truly well-executed custom car, but be it a speedster-fantasy or an LA Low-Rider, despite a certain "Wow" factor in the craftsmanship, I rarely slow down from a normal walking pace to take in any details.

You did a great job articulating a perspective that I didn't even know I held until just this evening.

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:12 am**

In my view there are different types of speedsters that have been and are being built. Speedsters are part of the Model T legacy. In the early days there are were aftermarket parts for adding speed, improving suspension and streamlined bodies. Rajo, Fontenac, Paco, Laural etc. In looking at some old photo's three types of styles stand out. I am only pointing out that almost every newly built one has a vintage looking counter part. All depends on what people preferences are.
Any of which can be accessorize with engine modifications, transmissions, lowering methods etc
This link has a variety speedsters http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/59 ... 1474051270
Touring

--
Period Bodied

--
Racer

--
And then there are modernized versions too

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:37 am**

Genuine T-era speedster bodies are very rare indeed. I'd guess that most of the remaining ones, whether factory or hand-made, are modified to some extent, and probably to a great extent. I see no problem with using a modern (steel) kit body, either as-is or as a starting point for a one-off speedster build, and if you are capable of crafting a speedster body out of sheet metal and wood, my hat's off to you. If your "speedster" has a fiberglass T bucket body on a tube frame with a Pinto engine, or a 350, and Mustang II front end, well, it is what it is. I would call such an assemblage a hot rod or maybe a beach buggy.

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:05 am**

No one has mentioned the role the speedster has played in keeping our hobby healthy. How many new or 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) generation T owners built or bought a speedster to get into the hobby?

Andy

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:41 am**

Thank You Andy!!!!!

In order for any hobby or interest to be followed you must move and adapt to the times…, evolution!

You sometimes must use modern parts in reliability and safety as to produce or use originals are not safe or not enough of a market.

Humbled Hank

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:18 pm**

AndyClary wrote: ↑
Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:05 am
No one has mentioned the role the speedster has played in keeping our hobby healthy. How many new or 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) generation T owners built or bought a speedster to get into the hobby?

Andy

Absolutely.
Model T's in general are a great way to get involved in auto mechanics and many other skills: metal/woodworking, welding, electrical. restoration methods, painting, and even a bit of researching. There are many build options depending on budget, time & time frame, memories, available work space and the skill level one wishes to achieve.
Where you live and who lives near you is also important. Getting help from a knowledgeable T owner to help/mentor is invaluable. Have a source for parts nearby reduces the cost of shipping of what you need. Its all about camaraderie.

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:03 pm**

Andy,
You are right My first T was a speedster. I'm a racer, hot rodder & fan of all things mechanical the older the better. My father came to live with us ( he hated my racing but liked cars.) I thought a speedster would work good for us both. ( not really being a race car ) The first event was a speedster run. Been hooked ever since.
Frank the red boat tailed speedster is not as modern as would think. The craftsmanship is way over the top but a pretty basic speedster.
Craig.

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:53 pm**

Thanks Scott, your comments are much appreciated.

Ed aka #4

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:12 pm**

YellowTRacer wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 26, 2021 8:00 pm
Undoubtedly I’ll get a little flack over this, but here’s my perspective. Most antique car hobbyists that don’t like Model T speedsters, dislike them because the owners/builders/restorers don’t stick to the era with mechanical components, and yet expect to be a part of antique automobile events where there are restored historical vehicles. What I consider “our segment” of the hobby, ended in 1927. Looking back, Model T Speedsters to a large degree were an extension of the Mercer Raceabout or Stutz Bearcat for the guy who couldn’t afford one. Barney Oldfield, race car driver extraordinaire and the two aforementioned iconic speed cars were everybody’s dream in the early part of the 20th century. Today it’s very important for us to remember that we’re in a restoration hobby. Anyone can create something using more modern (than 1927) components and build a very fast “street rod”. Our segment of the hobby should consist of correct era parts manufactured prior to 1928. They don’t have to be Ford factory parts but any component or copy of a component that could have been used in the day. You may be creating, but done in the mind set of “the style and what was available and would have been used by someone building/modifying this car in 19_ _ (you pick the year).” You want it to go faster, use era components and mind set, keeping in mind as you are building and restoring, something that would have been seen on the road prior to 1928. Keep it within our era and you’ll gain the respect of most of the car hobby (not just Ford) purists, even those that don’t necessarily like Model T speedsters.
Ed aka #4

A big thumbs up on this reply.

Posted: **Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:43 pm**

This is an interesting link for period speedster items

https://www.classicspeedsters.com/blog/ ... v03nirnzzp

Posted: **Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:18 am**

Craig Leach wrote: ↑
Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:03 pm
Andy,
You are right My first T was a speedster. I'm a racer, hot rodder & fan of all things mechanical the older the better. My father came to live with us ( he hated my racing but liked cars.) I thought a speedster would work good for us both. ( not really being a race car ) The first event was a speedster run. Been hooked ever since.
Frank the red boat tailed speedster is not as modern as would think. The craftsmanship is way over the top but a pretty basic speedster.
Craig.

Yes, the craftsmanship is way over the top, much more than was normally done in the time (having said that it is one of my favorites). What I was also referring to body line of the boat tail not its mechanical qualities. Vintage pictures of speedsters appear more rustic than show cars, just a point to be considered if trying to be period correct.

Posted: **Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:55 am**

Frank,
Yes the body line is a little differant. Fortunetly my metal shaping skills at this time lend well to the rustic look of the period. But I'm working on impoving them. I'm very impressed with Dan Erceg's influence on the speedsters in the Bay area they have a real race car appearance. I understand some actually where race cars. That little red speedster was a blast to drive I hope who ever has it now is taking it out and driving it not hiding it away
somewhere.
Craig.

Posted: **Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:23 am**

Harking back to the OP, a speedster that is mechanically a Model T is - well - a Model T. It is true that some of us love them and some of us don't, but a T owner should buy what he wants. It's not important what others think. One piece of advice that I will give is that it would be a very good idea to put "making a profit" out of your T ( or any other common antique car) purchase plan. Unless you purchase a 100 point T and put it into a climate-controlled well maintained storage area, your chances of turning a real profit are close to zero. An example would be my '27 touring car. I would describe it as a really good original car with a pretty good repaint. Add a new radiator, all new hoses, reupholster the front seat, replace practically every moving part in the steering, and other small stuff (and a heck of a lot of my time), there's no way I will ever make money on it. I bought it because I wanted it and I don't care if I take a two or three thousand dollar bath on it.

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:57 am**

Many speedsters today aren't much more than a stockish engine and a "sporty" body. They are a way for someone to get into a brass car without the cost, a Rootlieb body with brass and bam you have a brass car regardless of the wheel, engine, transmission, frame etc. It is completely fair for a person who has spent a lot on a brass car to have some resentment when someone pulls up in more modern T chassis and acts like he has a brass car because the radiator and headlights are brass.

A speedster is a fun car, it can be built for show, go, or both. It is nice to be able to drive your car somewhere and not be limited by a 55mph busy road with no alternative.

There is a market for speedsters but that market will almost always be less than what is invested. In todays world building a speedster can be as simple as opening a checkbook. It wasn't always such that you could just go buy a new warford, ruckstel, rajo, bosch front plate, etc.

As Ed said its best to keep it period whether it's stock bodied or not. I am a bit of a purist in that I don't believe disc brakes, seat belts, roll bars, etc belong on a T even though most argue it's for "safety". A T is not a "safe" car regardless of what you do, a speedster even less so.

MTFCA Forum

Speedster in the T market

Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market

Re: Speedster in the T market