MTFCA Forum

So I I have been planning to install some Rocky mountain breaks in my car. Recently I found out an interesting problem. My original brakes have so much stopping power I can lock up the rear wheels. Would a better upgrade be to get wider Wheels? Mabey Chevy ones?
Also, I dont have an aux transmission.

My guess is you have new bands on your transmission, and maybe even your brake band is almost too tight? You can lock up the rear wheels with enough foot pressure on the stock brake band.

I would still put on the RM's, many people prefer AC's over them for stopping in reverse. I've never had any problem stopping my RM's in reverse though, altho I have yet to back down a hill and try to stop!

Anyway, I imagine you do have hilly territory, the auxiliary brakes are almost a must. I live on flatland, all my cars have RM's, and I love them. Makes the car stop almost as good as a modern car. Put them on!

The problem with T Ford Brakes, is they clamp the driveshaft.. So when things go really bad, it's possible for one wheel to still keep turning forward, and one wheel to spin backwards..

And then there is the odd chance you break an axle, and you loose all your stopping power.. except for your hand brake.

For me Aux Brakes are a T Safety requirement.. along with Mirrors, Brake lites and turn signals..

Cap

Jonah,

You only get just so many of those "lock up the rear wheels" stops before something goes "bang" and you've got no brakes at all. Plus, 99.9% of your stops are not the OMG panic stops that get things locked up, (thank goodness). Going down a long, steep hill is where the Rockies will help. While going down in low is good advice, some hills can be so steep that low gear will overspeed the engine and you'll still need brakes. Scorching your brake band and cracking a drum will get you zero brakes real quick. All that being said, I don't have external brakes on most of my T's, (hydraulic GM brake drums on my Fordor), and I've done okay, but there have been times when a set of Rockies would have lowered my blood pressure considerably! I am also fairly certain that the hydraulic brakes on my Fordor may have saved my life and the lives of my 3 passengers in a VERY memorable incident just north of Monroe, MI several years ago. (That was an OMG panic!!!)

Just saying, my bands haven't been changed for at least 40 years

Jonah D'Avella wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:17 am

Just saying, my bands haven't been changed for at least 40 years

You're young, they won't last another 40.

BTW, in answer to your original question, "How Much Braking Do I Really Need?" the answer is, "All that you can get, and often, more than you've got."

I see no mention of parking brakes drums or year of your T. Late large rear end? These when kept dry are an excellent brake & negate the need for R/M's. They are better in that they arent as likely to get wet & not work & work in reverse.

A lack of braking can lead to excessive breaking. A Model T is severely limited as to stopping power by lack of front brakes. With late style brakes, you have the service brake, low pedal, and the lined parking/emergency brakes on each rear wheel. I find that that combination on a '27 roadster allows me to easily apply braking force up to and beyond the limit of tire traction using only the service brake. The parking brake will easily lock the wheels, and can be used as a service brake for a limited time before the drums overheat. (Keep the ratchet disengaged when doing this) The service brake and low pedal depend upon a functional driveline to work at all. On earlier cars, pre-1925 or so, you have a narrower service brake band, low pedal, and very small, limited, metal-on-metal emergency/parking brakes with no lining. Wider rear tires might help some, but weight transfer will limit braking effectiveness with any rear-only braking system. Wider tires reduce pressure on the contact patch and on some surfaces, they will tend to slide over gravel, etc without "biting" like they would do on a heavier car. The main benefit of disc brakes would be in hilly terrain where a lot of braking is needed. The disc brakes can get rid of heat much more effectively than the stock rear brakes and have a much improved duty cycle, but in typical panic stop situations, the rear wheels will merrily slide under hard braking with discs, RM, etc, just as they will with stock brakes. Auxilliary brakes that work on the outside of the stock brake drum will quickly overheat the drum under extended use, such as a long downhill run. The pressed steel drum lacks thermal mass and other design features to dissipate heat. Being semi-enclosed in the external brake band aggravates this shortcoming.

For many reasons, auxiliary brakes are very useful and can also save you from a serious crash.
1. Any failure in the drivetrain between the brake drum and the wheels can put you in freewheeling or as mentioned above if one wheel slides, you will lose both wheel brakes. The parking brake was made for holding the car when parked and actually puts the transmission in neutral which eliminates the engine compression braking unless you also use the low pedal when the parking brake is applied.
2. If you have Ruckstell or other auxiliary transmission it is possible to miss a shift and drop into neutral, which will cancel the transmission brake.
3. If the transmission brake is used for holding back on a grade, it will overheat the drum and band. The band will wear out quickly. And if Kevlar is used, it could even cause the drum to crack. If the auxiliary brake is adjusted tighter than the internal band, most of the braking will be done by the auxiliary brake and the transmission brake will only be used if you push hard, which will also increase the braking power.
4. Whatever type brakes you use, including hydrolic brakes, once you lock up the rear wheels, they will just slide.
5. The front axle was not designed for use with brakes, and so it needs to be beefed up if you decide to install front wheel brakes. It could cause you to lose the castor and cause the car to pull to one side.
So whatever type brake you use, be sure to leave space around your car so you are much less likely to have to slam on the brakes, and for descending hills use the same gear you would when you ascend the hill. Shift down before you go down the steep hill so you don't accidently go into free wheeling down the hill.
Norm

Using late-style parking brake as (limited) auxilliary will avoid the tendency for one wheel to lock and the other to reverse which can occur when using the service brake or the low pedal. Keeping the idle speed adjustment as low as practical will enhance engine braking.

Driving a modern car with rear only brakes can be an educational experience.

I really like my front brakes. I have modern trailer drum brakes on the front of my 27 roadster. In the process of installing era front band brakes on my 13 touring. Have hydraulic front disc on the current speedster project.
Wishbone doublers on all of them. No problem with the oil pan attachment.

Original T brakes, besides their obvious design limits, are not suited for frequent hard use or extended use, such as would be needed in hilly terrain with long, steep decents. They cannot get rid of heat fast enough. Stock brakes in good condition will stop the rear wheels in a panic stop, but that doesn't mean they will be up to the task of descending a long grade on a curving road without overheating UNLESS the entire brake system is in top condition AND considerable care is used. Adding disc brakes or other improvements will address some of the stock systems's shortcomings, but the car's stopping ability will still be severely limited compared to cars built in the last 90 years or so. Drive a T within its limits.

...how much breaking...

I recommend not breaking anything at all.

But seriously, if you live where there's a lot of up and down, a Ruckstell and some auxiliary brakes are a good idea. The Ruckstell is the only aftermarket accessory approved by Henry Ford, and it was sold by Ford dealers. And obviously, extra brakes to go with it are practically a requirement.

Some folks condemn the stock Ford brakes as dangerously inadequate. I don't. Granted, they're not as efficient as the brakes on a modern car, but I've found them good enough so far. Of course all my Model T driving has been in the relatively flat middle of the country. Long, steep grades are not a significant part of Model T driving here. East of Wheeling or west of Denver I would want the Ruckstell and extra brakes.

I don't doubt that disk brakes are very efficient. The question of whether to use them comes down to what kind of "look" you want. Wanting a period correct appearance, I'll skip the disks. That leaves external drum brakes. Which ones? By all accounts, Rocky Mountain Brakes are excellent at stopping forward movement but don't work for reverse. I can imagine encountering a red light or a stop sign when headed uphill (think San Francisco) where I would find the tendency to roll backwards very disappointing. So that leaves some other kind of external drum brakes. There are different brands, but the best known (and I assume easiest to find) is AC, so I will go with AC brakes.

The lack of braking in reverse attributed to Rocky Mtn. Brakes can easily be overcome by setting the brakes up so the Ford brake band also engages with a harder application of the brake pedal. Rocky Mtn. Brakes are self actuating when going forward and do not require a lot of brake pedal pressure to engage so you have the ability to set your brakes up so the brake band on the transmission engages after the Rockies if you press down hard enough on the brake pedal. This not only gives you a bit more braking going forward for a panic stop but addresses the reverse braking issue as well. I run both AC and Rockies on my cars and find that the Rockies are slightly better. If you are sticking with two wheel brakes and 30X3-1/2 tires you only have so much braking capacity once the wheels lock up regardless of the system you use to stop. I have always felt that disc brakes are overkill for that reason unless you are in very hilly terrain where brake fade is an issue. Just mt thoughts.

The comments about driving your T within the limits of the stock brakes I fully agree with. The problem is that most of the rest of the traffic you will encounter does not realize that your brakes have significant limitations. So when they suddenly cut in front of you and jam on their brakes is when the problem occurs!!
Either way drive defensively!

I'm able to avoid traffic and I do so. Some people today don't realize that some vehicles have manual transmissions and limited braking ability. They're apt to run into the back of you, if they don't get run down by a semi or drive headlong into a bridge abutement first. Then we have the rolling telephone operators. It's difficult to assess their driving skill they're behind wheel, because, often as not, they are not driving when they're behind the wheel.

You've gotten some good advice....me, I have disc brakes and love them. Having brakes that are independent of the original transmission brakes is a huge safety improvement. I chose to get mine after some scary experiences in the hills of southern Indiana. One comment, a big plus for the disc brakes is that they are hydraulic and do not need frequent adjustment.

Jonah, you really don't want any breaks. If things brake they need fixing! Now, brakes are a different thing. Those you do need.

Allan from down under.

Ask these guys about brakes!

"The mail must go through", of course... but through a tree?

Concerning hills like San Francisco. You really need a Ruckstell for those hills. And you need the original gear ratio in the ring and pinion. I have a 22 roadster in which someone installed 3-1 gears in the rear axle. Thankfully it has Ruckstell because when I try to start out from a start like an uphill intersection, I need the Ruckstell. Interestingly if you shift into Ruckstell BEFORE you start down a steep grade, the Ruckstell will actually amplify the transmission brake and engine braking.
Norm

I didn't read all the answers to your post, but of the ones that I did read (and your posts), I didn't read what brake you were using to "lock up the rear tires". Is it the foot transmission band brake; the rear emergency brake (operated by your brake and hand clutch lever), or both? As others have said, if your bands are 40 years old, one can only imagine how many miles they have on them; how thick or thin the linings are; and how close to the lining material rivets that is left? if you haven't personally inspected your transmission bands and the lining of your rear emergency brakes (I'm assuming that I am correct that you have a 26-27 large drum rear axle) then I think its time to inspect. As others have said, panic stops in a Model T with only stock brakes will only happen so many times until they fail. Its like playing Russian Roulette with a gun. One chamber has a live bullet and every time you panic stop, the cylinder spins. How many chances do you want to take with your life? Model T brakes are not indestructible and they are not guaranteed for life (either the car's life or yours). If you want to live as long as some of us old geezers, don't gamble on your brakes !

Some good advice, some not so good. If you have a ruckstell, or auxiliary transmission, auxiliary brakes are a very good idea. Further upgrades are only limited by your imagination and budget. Otherwise, the best advice is to modify your driving habits and not exceed the limitations of the vehicle. That means avoiding congestion, as best you can stay away from other vehicles. Keep a large distance between you and the car in front of you. When approaching an intersection with a waiting car, slow down and assume they don't see you. Imagine the foot brake is for emergencies and for holding the car still at stops. Use the throttle to slow down. Increasingly, modern vehicles with many sensors and safety features, will compensate for the drivers inattentiveness. (A good thing!) What I LOVE about the model T is the seat-of-your-pants kind of freedom, knowing the only safety device is the one between the drivers ears. Accept that, be safe, and you will have lots of fun.

Ditto what Norm said.
I would like to add a couple of thoughts. While discussing brakes on model T's at a car show one day a gentleman broke into the conversation and stated that the problem we where having with the brakes on our model T's was "we where relying on them to stop the car". To quote Tony Bowker "stopping the rear wheels will not neccessarily stop the car" and finaly I don't know anyone that has installed disc brakes that is willing to take them off!
Craig.

A model T is a car from a different era, you have to drive it as such.
But (big BUT here) that is easier said than done, when you drive out in the country with a lot of country roads, you might be able to avoid a lot of modern traffic, but even then you may get into trouble every once in a while when encountering large and fast farm equipment or trucks.
When traveling in congested city areas or on modern freeways you will be surrounded by modern cars with power brakes, ABS systems, autonomous emergency braking and drivers who have very important phonecalls to make.
When rolling on period correct wheels and tires, braking is limited by the few square inches of rubber on the road, adding a few inches by mounting front brakes can help, as can auxiliary rear brakes.
Still your T will not brake like a modern car, no matter how fancy your setup.
Best advice i can give you, as some others did before me, stay sharp, keep your distance, drive defensively, try to avoid modern traffic as much as you can, try to stay off the streets at rush hour as most dimwitted drivers seem to be out then, and enjoy the country !
Have a good time driving your Speedster !

I own two T's. A 1915 with Rocky Mountains and a 1926 with sure-stop disc's The sure-stops are superior over the RM's but I used the RM's on the 1915 because they look period for a 107 year old car. I call BOTH set ups P&P brakes (push and pray) I drive both my T's like they have NO BRAKES and try to avoid hard stopping. bobt

ok, so i locked up the rear wheels using the service brake. i avoid major roads and use my breaks only if i am coming to a complete stop.

Jonah D'Avella wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:27 am

ok, so i locked up the rear wheels using the service brake. i avoid major roads and use my breaks only if i am coming to a complete stop.

As I said in my advice, The woven linings used on 26-27 large drum brakes are only good for a LIMITED number of stops. You don't know how many "lock up the wheel" stops you are going to get out of them and I, or no other T owner does, either. If you only did this one time to see if they could lock up the wheels, AND you don't make a regular habit of it, you may be lucky and have brakes when you desperately need them, But if you use any brake hard on a regular basis, and you don't inspect them, they may or may NOT be effective when you need them. As I said in my previous post, using stock Model T brakes, without inspecting them, is like playing Russian Roulette. You'll never know when your time is up. As Clint Eastwood said in Dirty Harry, "Do You Feel Lucky"?

In most traffic conditions, it is not a problem keeping a safe distance in front, because the T is quite slow. However, sometimes another car passes you and squeezes in front of you. So you also need to look for a way out. That is be aware of what is on the shoulder of the road and be prepared to use it where you can. But I find when going uphill, I usually try to keep going and only pull over to let someone pass after I get to the top of the hill, because, after I stop on a hill, I am going to be going much slower when I get back on the road. If the shoulder is wide enough and the area ahead is clear, then drive on the shoulder. City driving is a bit different, because of the stop and go driving. Try to keep a good stopping distance in front of you if driving in stop and go. I avoid driving on freeways wherever possible. In our county there are only a few places where there isn't another way around, although at least one I have to go about 20 miles to get around a 10 mile stretch of freeway.
Norm

I do what I can to keep people out from behind me. On 2 lane highways with paved shoulders, that means frequent rear view mirror checking and frequent pulling over onto the paved shoulder. You're not likely to go fast enough in a T to suit most people. 65-75 is not fast enough to suit them on most highways. It's amazing how many people in modern vehicles love to drive 75-80 MPH and yet they do not know how to execute a simple passing maneuver out on the open highway in broad daylight. You can drive 70 MPH and they will come up behind you and stick. They're often the same ones that specialize in sticking in semi drivers' blind spots. On 2 lane paved back roads, I try to maintain about 42 MPH and watch the rear view mirror carefully. Where passing is impossible, I ease up to 45-48 MPH. My T will easily take most 2 lane curves marked 35 MPH at 45 - 48 MPH. Most 2 lane back roads around here have intersections or other opportunities every few miles to get out from in front of people who drive fast, but cannot or will not pass, even when it's obvious that a safe and legal opportunity exists to do so.

When traveling in congested city areas or on modern freeways...

My Rule #1: No freeways.
Rule #2: See rule #1.

As Norm says, in most places there are alternate routes. I did encounter one exception. Crossing the Mississippi at Hannibal I-72 is the only game in town. I phoned the Highway Patrol and got an officer to follow me across the bridge with his lights on.

As for congested city streets, speed is usually not a problem there. More often the problem is mile after mile of stop and crawl.