MTFCA Forum

I am working on shortening the torque tube. I have a NOS ball and it fits perfectly. But, there is 40/1000 play fore and aft when the ball is installed. My inclination is to remove some material to reduce the play down to about 5/1000 to reduce pounding. The problem is, I don’t know what is normal for play on the ball. Should there be some kind of a wipe between the ring and the back of the transmission? Would that take up some of the play? Should the ball be pressing firmly into the back of the transmission or should it be more more neutral.

This all matters because I can make it whatever I want at this point and I want to make sure I am making the torque tube the correct length.

There are shims available from the suppliers to take up this wear. Since your ball is NOS I assume the wear is in the retaining ring and maybe in your 4th main socket. You could try closing down the retaining ring by repeatedly hitting it with a ball pein hammer, working your way around the ring and progressively closing it in.

BTW, you didn't put a gasket between the ring and the 4th main did you? If so... don't.

No, no gasket between the ring and the back of the Muncie transmission. I have tried multiple rings and torque tubes and have the same issue, with slight variations in play. It’s an easy thing to remove the ball socket extension from the back of the Muncie and remove a few thousandths on the lathe to create a better fit, I just don’t want to do that if I have missed something in assembly or should be doing something else. I think this would be a better system than altering the ring or using one of the insert shims (which I hear are problematic and wouldn’t take up all the slack).

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I believe you'd want about .006 - .008 clearance at the ball housing. It's exposed to dirt and lubed with grease, and the parts probably are not made to extremely tight tolerance. If binding were to occur, it could lead to serious problems. I'd think .040 is too much, and would make for a noisy and leaky joint with excess radial play.

Has anyone painted the ball cap with SLIP-PLATE paint, like is used on leaf springs?

I haven't, but that sounds like a good idea. If the ring has enough stock at the flange, I'd be inclined to take a little material off there, if necessary, rather than off the transmission casting.

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:16 am

Has anyone painted the ball cap with SLIP-PLATE paint, like is used on leaf springs?

I don't think it would be needed from the prospective of its lubricating property. For taking up space, I would think the shim would work much better. Being graphite, some might suggest it getting into the engine and shorting out the magneto. I would be of the opinion that would be slim to none, as any oil would be migrating out, not in, and would tend to flush it out onto the ground.

The shim is available from Lang's and others may carry it too. The one I purchased measures ~0.018" thick but I haven't installed it.
http://www.modeltford.com/item/2581SH.aspx
I would not beat up the ring to improve the fit as you will never achieve the true spherical shape needed for long term service. Hammering will tighten it for a brief time but wear dimples in the NOS ball as the high spots in the ring wear down. Machining down the ring and ball cap flange faces will tighten the joint but weaken both parts in proportion the the amount of material removed. Slip plate paint, as suggested, would be a good option but would wear away over time. jb

I have a chatter that occurs at a certain power band that happens at about 30mph. Interestingly, this noise does not occurr when I have 3 additional passengers in the car. Do folks here think this may be a similar cause/effect? When I constructed this drive shaft, the retainer collar seemed a bit loose, but I dismissed this concern when I drove the car a bit, and all seemed well. Worth noting is that I have no gasket between this collar and 4th main. What I likely did not do early on was to hit 30mph, because the whole drivetrain was new, so was cautious about break-in. All thoughts/ comments appreciated. Happy New Year All.
Regards,
Scott

That might be a normal operating sound or it might be some wear the U joint or excess play in the ball joint, or driveshaft bushing/bearing, 4th main, or it could be a normal torsional vibration from the engine acting on the driveline at certain speeds/loads. Any looseness in the engine mounts, various body parts, loose objects in the car, exhaust system, and more can cause noise/vibration in the driveline and transmission at certain speeds and loads due to general engine vibrations and/or crankshaft torsional vibrations. Parking the car on level ground and setting the parking brake, putting the hand lever all the way forward, then pushing backward and forward on the car may reveal clunking sounds or excess driveline play that might indicate a problem. Some back and forth driveline play is normal, but popping or clunking sounds and a lot of play are not. Getting under the car with the parking brake set and shoving backward and forward on the frame while watching for play at the ball joint might be revealing. To get an idea of total driveline play, put the hand lever all the way forward and raise the hood, then rock the car backward and forward until the fan or crank pulley just budges. The amount the car moves back and forth in high without moving the engine gives an idea of total driveline play. Some is normal, a lot is not.

Thx Pat...l'll try a shim in the torque ball, just to see if any variation. The chatter is annoying, but so far does not seem to have any effect on this car's awesome horsepower.
Regards,
Scott

jab35 wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:50 am

I would not beat up the ring to improve the fit as you will never achieve the true spherical shape needed for long term service. Hammering will tighten it for a brief time but wear dimples in the NOS ball as the high spots in the ring wear down.

Your points are well taken and are something to be considered. For the hammering that I suggested, I had in mind something less brutal than "beating" on the ring. A large number of evenly distributed, lighter blows was what I envisioned, though I did a poor job of saying so. I have done a similar procedure to the inner bearing bores in front hubs in order to reestablish a press fit with the bearing cup. Lots of lighter blows, working progressively around the hub, with frequent size checks.

Re: "Getting under the car with the parking brake set and shoving backward and forward on the frame while watching for play at the ball joint might be revealing" (of excess play at the ball joint) ..... Or it might not, since the brake rods would be pulling forward on the axle with the parking brake set.

Thanks for the advice. It is my standard practice to modify the cheap/easily replaceable part whenever possible. But, the ring is pretty thin. I think I will take a bit off the ring and make sure it’s flat, then take the rest off of the ball mount on the Muncie. That is quite thick so the loss of 30+/- thousandths is not a big deal. In addition, it’s a removable/replaceable part and you see cases for sale occasionally if I ever needed to replace it.

Normally the rear ball retainer, is not a replaceable part in as it needs to be installed before the ball/u-joint housing is installed on the torque tube. The hole is too small to fit over the flange at the rear. With the ball/u-joint housing off the torque tube, is doable.

Yep, I am tackling this job as part of cutting the torque tube and drive line down for the Muncie. So everything is apart.

If I understand your problem correctly, you are making up a shortened driveshaft tube from loose parts to fit a Muncie you are installing. You have a new old stock driveshaft ball end to use in the shortened tube. The clearance at the ball in the Muncie housing is 0.040, which is to much play. Because the driveshaft angle is steeper than stock T and the ball end is new and unworn the ball may be bottoming on rear bearing retainer in the Muncie, I had that problem with a 2 speed Wordford. Adjusting the forward end of the ball by removing a little metal from it should work, go slow a little metal at a time and check the driveshaft ball at its new installed angle to get around 0.005 - 0.010 play.