1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

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bmklawt
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1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by bmklawt » Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:07 pm

New model T owner, I am pulling the engine to redo the transmission and am also going to pull the body off the frame as things just seem a little off, 2X4's where used as body block, doors are a little off, radiator seems a little high. Anyway I pulled the radiator today and noticed the front cross member has been welded, when I first got the car and changed the oil I notice one the the oil pan mounding ears had been welded. If the frame is straight or can be straightened would this be okay, just trying to get a heads up if I should be looking for a new frame or maybe just replace the front cross member.
I'm a newbie just looking for your opinion.
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Ken Buhler
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Re: 1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by Ken Buhler » Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:52 pm

Bruce,
These cars were riveted for maximum flexibility. I would not leave it like that as it is sure to crack or break. That one is a mess. Surgically remove it, carefully clean up the frame and install the new cross member with rivets. Check your spring for the correct number of leaves, length, and arc. I am a strong proponent of removing the front triangle and going through it entirely. While you are there, inspect the crankcase socket where the radius rod mounts. That triangle is your lifeline.
Ken Buhler
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Norman Kling
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Re: 1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by Norman Kling » Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:06 pm

That does not look like the correct front engine mount. The top part where the engine mounts is correct but the bottom and two side u bolts is not correct. The frame member is welded at the ends. Unless you are going to enter the car into car shows where it is judged, I would say just leave it as is. But check it often for possible cracks and if it checks out OK leave it as is. I would check it at least as often as once before each tour you enter. If it starts steering strangely or making noises, stop and check. If it is cracked, replace. If you do decide to replace, look at swap meets or ask local members if anyone has a spare chassis. It would be good to find one even if you don't use it right away so you can change it. Unless you are very good at riveting, it is probably best not to try to do it yourself. If you find a good used frame take off the body and replace the entire frame. Also check for straightness and straighten it out if it sags. Usually if they sag it is around the area of the crankcase ears. The left side is especially vulnerable because the torque of the engine and also torque of using the transmission brake tends to twist it down on the right side.
Norm


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Re: 1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:24 pm

I wouldn't want that frame under a good car. Is that a piece of metal between the steering shaft bracket and the frame rail?


TXGOAT2
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Re: 1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:24 pm

I'd check every inch of tht frame. It may have multiple issues related to high mileage or hard use or a crash.
Last edited by TXGOAT2 on Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RajoRacer
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Re: 1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:25 pm

That engine mount has an accessory strengthener.


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Re: 1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:39 pm

I would be looking for another frame. Those chunks of steel in your front cross member will eventually break the spring.

Also, it appears as if your steering column mounting bracket is moved back somewhat from its normal location. Looks too as if your drag link has been modified. Not liking either one of those changes.


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Re: 1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:11 pm

Keep the nifty engine mount/spring attachment accessory

consider a new frame or spend a LOT of time inspecting and repairing everything (front crossmember and it's attachment is a particular mess).

steering bracket has been hacked on, too, and the drag link has either been repaired or lengthened.

Lots to sort out.
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bmklawt
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Re: 1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by bmklawt » Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:39 pm

That is a wood block between the steering bracket and frame, there is only one one set of holes for the steering bracket so I am assuming the bracket is in the correct place, frame and engine number are the same, the drag link is the correct length, appears to have been broke in half and the welded it back together by slipping a tube over it and welding the ends.
I purchased a NOS steering bracket, drag link, and used wishbone and oil pan to replace those while the trans is getting fixed and maybe an engine rebuild.
Which year frames would work for my car and how do I identify the correct year frame from those of earlier cars?

Your help is greatly appreciated
Bruce


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Re: 1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by John kuehn » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:49 am

If that front engine crossmember would have broken after it was welded it would have already broke. No it’s not the best way to fix it but it did work for no telling how long.

Probably what happened the rivets worked loose over time and it was repaired with bolts and welded up.

If your going to change it now would be the time to do it. Use a small grinder to carefully grind and cut out the welds and replace with a good crossmember and rivet it back in.

Or you can find another good frame that’s still pretty good and do that.


Russ_Furstnow
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Re: 1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by Russ_Furstnow » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:05 am

It is clear this front cross member has been changed in the past as evidenced by the bolts securing the cross member to the frame rails. Front cross member damage is quite common and repairable. It also appears that someone may have welded portions of the cross member bracing to the rails. The one thing I don't see is any evidence of the leather or rubber spring pad between the cross member and the spring, which probably caused the cracks in the cross member in the first place.

I would suggest replacing the cross member and then install the spring pad to insure this would not happen again. I hope this helps, Russ Furstnow


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Re: 1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:44 am

That crossmember is completely butchered, and the frame rails have damage from welding, and poor welding at that. Looking at the underside of the crossmember, it doesn't look like the car accumulated much, if any, road mileage after the "repair". That frame is suitable for a "lawn art" car on permanent static display. /// If your frame has an original, factory number stamped on it, it is a '26 or '27 frame. I'd be very suspicious of the number, given how few Model Ts actually still have the original engine and frame together. What year is your car? Is the engine number a '26-'27 number?

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Re: 1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by Pep C Strebeck » Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:13 pm

My answer to your original question, "should I be worried?, I certainly would be.

I would agree with a lot of the posts above and find a new frame. You said that the frame number and the engine number match, don't junk the frame rather keep it and make it the "back-burner" project, keep the matching frame and engine together. Work on it when you have the time, but in the "short-term" a new/different frame would be a wise and prudent choice. I am certain that with a much closer inspection you will find more wrong with this frame than just what you can see now.
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Mark Nunn
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Re: 1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by Mark Nunn » Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:28 pm

This is a link to the frame chart showing the model year differences.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/82 ... 873486.pdf

It may be helpful if you look for a better frame.


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Re: 1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by OilyBill » Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:30 pm

I would change the crossmember.

If you decide to do it, you might want to check and see if you have a local BLACKSMITH, (NOT A FARRIER!) and have them come out and look at it. If you have the car apart. find a new or donor crossmember, and take the frame and cross member down to them and have them install it.

Hot-riveting for an experienced blacksmith is no big deal. They can probably knock the crossmember installation out in 2 hours or so. I have actually done hot-riveting myself on my car frames, to replace working rivets, and it isn't that difficult. (Years ago, I did an article on it for "Cars and Parts" magazine.) I also riveted the runningboard brackets on my 1914 Runabout, as when I restored it, they were just held on with bolts and nuts.

The key to changing a crossmember is to keep everything locked down while the riveting is being done, and just do one rivet at a time.


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Re: 1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:25 pm

bmklawt wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:39 pm
"... there is only one set of holes for the steering bracket so I am assuming the bracket is in the correct place..."

Your help is greatly appreciated
Bruce
Yes, it does appear to be. The angle of the photo had me tricked. Happy to see that you're replacing the drag link however!


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Re: 1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by Altair » Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:26 am

At one time the crank handle may have been hanging in the down position and the front end struck the ground and bent everything. This happened to my 15 touring, the incursion bent the crank handle and severely twisted the cross member. The crank could not be turned and that is most likely why it was abandoned in a ditch in Saskatchewan. I had to brace the frame from above and with a long steel rod and a Jackall applied up pressure and let it sit for a week and eventually member returned to spec. There was evidence of an accident where the rivets had been pulled out on the driver's side and replaced with bolts and nuts, therefore the driver's side is bolts and nuts and the passenger's side is original rivets. And that is the way it will remain for the rest of my life. I am 81 and the car is 107.


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Re: 1927 Touring front crossmember welded, should I be worried?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:35 am

Crystalization. It's real.

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