Identifying replacement valve seat inserts
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Topic author - Posts: 45
- Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:37 pm
- First Name: Ryan
- Last Name: Uecker
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Model T Runabout
- Location: Hutchinson, MN
- Board Member Since: 2019
Identifying replacement valve seat inserts
Is it pretty obvious when your T has had seat inserts installed? Below are a few pictures of my valve seats. Seems to be an excessive amount of concentric circles around most of the valves. Are these inserts? If so, are all inserts hardened?
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- First Name: john
- Last Name: karvaly
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 14/15 wide track roadster. 23 touring, 27 roadster pickup, 20ish rajo touring
- Location: orange, ca
- MTFCA Number: 14383
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Re: Identifying replacement valve seat inserts
Interesting variety of sizes used. If memory serves, there are or were 3 harnesses. 1) cast iron. (soft.) 2) hardened. Normal for unleaded fuels & 3) real hard (for propane)
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- First Name: Miles
- Last Name: Bowen
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- Location: Brighton, MI
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Re: Identifying replacement valve seat inserts
Yes Ryan, those are aftermarket inserts of some kind. The valves in both my 1924 and 1925 engines have seats machined directly into the cast iron of the block.
Miles
1924 Touring “Bonnie”
1925 Express Wagon “Clyde”
1924 Touring “Bonnie”
1925 Express Wagon “Clyde”
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Re: Identifying replacement valve seat inserts
For a T engine, any “hard” seat is fine. Yes, there are different alloys and hardness available... but the low operating temperatures of the T engine do not require anything different/better than the original iron. The major contributor to valve seat recession, is the low operating temperature of the original carbon steel exhaust valves. Swap out the valves for a nice set of stainless steel valves, and valve seat wear becomes a thing of the past... with or without hard seats
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Topic author - Posts: 45
- Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:37 pm
- First Name: Ryan
- Last Name: Uecker
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- Location: Hutchinson, MN
- Board Member Since: 2019
Re: Identifying replacement valve seat inserts
Ok, so I have new SS Valves to replace the 2-piece valves that were in it. Should I do anything with these hardened seats? What is the best tool to freshen them up in the car? Neways?
If the seats leave a fairly decent pattern on the new valves as-is should I avoid messing with the seats altogether?
If the seats leave a fairly decent pattern on the new valves as-is should I avoid messing with the seats altogether?
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- Posts: 3840
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:24 pm
- First Name: john
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- Location: orange, ca
- MTFCA Number: 14383
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Re: Identifying replacement valve seat inserts
Use a little lapping compound to confirm seat width, full contact & position on the new valve faces.MN_Ford_Fan wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:37 pmOk, so I have new SS Valves to replace the 2-piece valves that were in it. Should I do anything with these hardened seats? What is the best tool to freshen them up in the car? Neways?
If the seats leave a fairly decent pattern on the new valves as-is should I avoid messing with the seats altogether?
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Topic author - Posts: 45
- Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:37 pm
- First Name: Ryan
- Last Name: Uecker
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- Board Member Since: 2019
Re: Identifying replacement valve seat inserts
So this is a little unexpected. I am in process of installing the new valves from Langs. The hardened seats look so good I decided to just lap each valve lightly as I go to confirm seat engagement. I have four done and two have had .015" of clearance right out of the package. One I had to grind off .003" and the 4th one I had to sort the remaining unopened valves to find one that had less than .020" of clearance. I have 4 left to do yet.
Is it common for the valves to be so close right out of the package? I was expecting to have to remove much more material.
Is it common for the valves to be so close right out of the package? I was expecting to have to remove much more material.
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Re: Identifying replacement valve seat inserts
Not at all. You got lucky.MN_Ford_Fan wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:35 pmSo this is a little unexpected. I am in process of installing the new valves from Langs. The hardened seats look so good I decided to just lap each valve lightly as I go to confirm seat engagement. I have four done and two have had .015" of clearance right out of the package. One I had to grind off .003" and the 4th one I had to sort the remaining unopened valves to find one that had less than .020" of clearance. I have 4 left to do yet.
Is it common for the valves to be so close right out of the package? I was expecting to have to remove much more material.
Murphy must be laid up with the covid.
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Topic author - Posts: 45
- Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:37 pm
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Re: Identifying replacement valve seat inserts
Well it's making me nervous that I'm messing it up, lol. Plus I spent like 4 hours setting up a perpendicular grinding base at my bench grinder and I'm anxious to put it to use!speedytinc wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:41 pmNot at all. You got lucky.
Murphy must be laid up with the covid.
As I finish the last 4, If I come across another one that is too short, what is the biggest gap I dare use as-is?
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- MTFCA Number: 14383
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Re: Identifying replacement valve seat inserts
I use adjustable lifters typically set @ .010". Ideally they would all be @ your target.015. If you had a few @ .025-.030, you dont need to loose any sleep.MN_Ford_Fan wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:49 pmWell it's making me nervous that I'm messing it up, lol. Plus I spent like 4 hours setting up a perpendicular grinding base at my bench grinder and I'm anxious to put it to use!speedytinc wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:41 pmNot at all. You got lucky.
Murphy must be laid up with the covid.
As I finish the last 4, If I come across another one that is too short, what is the biggest gap I dare use as-is?
I assume this is not a hi performance motor. I also assume grinding the seats lower is not a good option for you. (thats how its done)
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Topic author - Posts: 45
- Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:37 pm
- First Name: Ryan
- Last Name: Uecker
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Model T Runabout
- Location: Hutchinson, MN
- Board Member Since: 2019
Re: Identifying replacement valve seat inserts
You are correct, it's not meant to be high-performance. Just want a solid runner that I can depend on. Grinding the seats is not a great option simply because I don't have the proper tools or knowledge at this point. But we'll see this weekend when I get to the last 4. Hopefully none are more than .020" gap.speedytinc wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:03 pmI assume this is not a hi performance motor. I also assume grinding the seats lower is not a good option for you. (thats how its done)
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Re: Identifying replacement valve seat inserts
There is more to a valve job than just stem clearance and good valve face contact. Valve seat width can make a big difference in how well a valve seals, and in turn how well an engine runs. Specifically, how well an engine starts. Check that the valve face contact width is 3/32”, and is comfortably located on the face of the valve with about 1/16”-3/32” of valve face exposed above the seat contact.
Too much seat width can cause a valve to seal poorly due to insufficient spring pressure. This can cause an otherwise good running motor to have a hard starting problem, especially in a hand cranked engine
Too much seat width can cause a valve to seal poorly due to insufficient spring pressure. This can cause an otherwise good running motor to have a hard starting problem, especially in a hand cranked engine