MTFCA Forum

I’m in the process of removing the water pump and putting the original style water inlet back on my 26. I assume I will be buying a bergs after I get things running, but I’d like to take this link out of the cooling system. The bolts that came off the water pump are modern grade 5 bolts and barely cleared the replacement inlet and horn bracket from Lang’s. What is the correct length and material? Is zinc plated ok? I found some replacements, but I’m afraid they may be too long (I’ll measure when I get home). I’m not concerned about the looks, I’ll just paint them black anyways. They are 7/16’s coarse thread correct?

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 1485959762

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/11 ... 1290642906

It will have a dome head to the bolts like the head bolts have. No zinc plate, either painted steel or nickel plated. Water outlet bolts are domed too.

https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/posting.php?f= ... 324adb4087
Bruce's "Comprehensive Model T Encyclopedia" [available: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/mccalley.htm or from the vendors] often will have the item listed along with better dimensions and TPI. For example part # 3016 that holds the side water inlet onto the block is listed "SCREW (Water inlet connection, 7/16 x 1-1/2� x 14 T.P.I.)" (Why it uses the term Screw when it looks like a bolt � I�m not sure � but that is what the catalog used. Note many of the vendors also use the same part numbers as the original Price List of Parts � that can be helpful in tracking thing down.) --
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The chart references the bolt head size and tools that can be used on it in that location

Frank, A bolt that threads directly into a threaded hole is generally called a screw.

Matt, Congratulations removing the water pump and going natural thermosyphon! You will not regret it. Burping, bubbling, and peeing does not mean it is overheating, its all part of the charm of a model T, like buzzing coils.

Technically to call a bolt a screw it needs to be threaded all the way to the head and is called a machine screw, a screw is a tapered fastener.

They are technically referred as a cap screw, if the fastener doesn't have a nut attached.. Exceptios are head bolts and plow bolts.

Art Mirtes

Yes, other parts of the world can interpret names differently. If you ask for cap crews in Australia. you are working with high strength fasteners that are stronger than grade 8.

I'll call the water outlet bolts screws when you guys stop calling tourers tourings!

Allan from down under.

Amazing how quickly a discussion can get screwed up.

https://monroeengineering.com/blog/bolt ... ifference/
The Machinery’s Handbook explains that bolts are used to assemble to unthreaded objects, typically with the use of a nut. In comparison, screws are used to assemble objects with threads. Here’s the thing, though: not all objects in which screws are used already have threads. Some objects feature pre-made threads, whereas others create the thread during the installation of the screw. So, the fundamental difference between screws and bolts is that the former is used to assemble threaded objects, while the latter is used to assemble untreaded objects. With that said, screws can make their own threads during the installation process.
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Another interesting answer (this makes sense to me)
A bolt as a fastener which is turned from outside the head, and a screw as a fastener with a central drive. However, what constitutes a screw or a bolt can vary dependent on time period, geographical location, and even just manufacturer preference; the invention of criteria-defying hybrids further complicates the identification process, creating a muddled sense of distinction.
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Another distinction https://www.portlandbolt.com/technical/ ... ap-screws/
The most basic difference between a cap screw and a bolt is the way in which these fasteners are installed. Technically, a bolt is installed by turning a nut to tighten the fastener, while a cap screw is installed by turning the head of the bolt to assemble and tighten

This is like left hand side of the car can be either side, depending on whether you are looking at it from the front or the back! A bolt is only a bolt if it has a nut? If there is no nut it is a screw?
An old adage goes along the lines of "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is most likely a duck!" Same goes for bolts.
To put this in T terms, the coupling of the rear axle to the pan/transmission cover is made with two screws and two bolts. I'm sure you all agree.

Allan from down under.

Allan wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:53 am

This is like left hand side of the car can be either side, depending on whether you are looking at it from the front or the back! A bolt is only a bolt if it has a nut? If there is no nut it is a screw?
An old adage goes along the lines of "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is most likely a duck!" Same goes for bolts.
To put this in T terms, the coupling of the rear axle to the pan/transmission cover is made with two screws and two bolts. I'm sure you all agree.

Allan from down under.

So your saying Head Bolts are really Head Screws. I rather stick with "A bolt as a fastener which is turned from outside the head, and a screw as a fastener with a central drive." Head Bolts

Sorry Frank, I guess you missed my understated irony. A bolt is a bolt. However it is used, it is still a bolt.

Allan from down under.

Hats off to all who successfully diverted a potential water pump tirade bloodbath into a harmless bolt/screw naming convention discussion. On the bright side, at least we didn't get a politically correct woke lesson about the terms male and female fasteners.

Thanks to everyone for the help, and the fastener chart and links. I bought some 2 inch long bolts the other day, and they seemed too long, the 1 inch bolts holding the water pump on were definitely too short, so I’m glad I can confidently go find the 1.5 inch ones. Does the finish/material/grade matter? It looks like zinc plated grade 5 is the most common.

Common, yes, correct looking, no.
The finish/material/grade bolt does not matter for a water inlet. Modern zinc or cad bolts are not the right finish, and a modern hex head is the wrong shape, they will work, but look wrong. Model T bolts that I have had tested were somewhere less than a modern grade 2 bolt. You can use a grade 2, or greater, your choice. If you got a grade 9 bolt, it has a higher head, you can grind or turn it to make a dome head. Or you could get a dome head bolt from the vendors.
Any modern bolt with any finish, in any grade will work, not look right, but work. You asked. And if you keep your hood closed, who would know.

A not so common know fact is if you measure the head of a bolt, the threaded area will be 3/16th inch smaller.

For those bolts and the head bolts, a 5/8th inch wrench is required, so the bolt is 10/16th minus 3/16th or 7/16th inch.

Then you have to determine if it is national course or national fine threaded.

Of course, there are exceptions to all the rules and the Model T has a few of them.

The bolts holding the generator in place, on the later 1919 to 1927 Ts that have one, are an exception with a size larger head.

There are three places that use Size 14 X 24 screws or nuts that have been obsolete for many years.

To Jeff

It is reassuring that in the hobby, one can still tell a male fastener from a female fastener by simply looking. At least for now, though a recent thread showed a change from cross-point to slotted, via clever surgery

Humblej wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:13 pm

Common, yes, correct looking, no.
The finish/material/grade bolt does not matter for a water inlet. Modern zinc or cad bolts are not the right finish, and a modern hex head is the wrong shape, they will work, but look wrong. Model T bolts that I have had tested were somewhere less than a modern grade 2 bolt. You can use a grade 2, or greater, your choice. If you got a grade 9 bolt, it has a higher head, you can grind or turn it to make a dome head. Or you could get a dome head bolt from the vendors.
Any modern bolt with any finish, in any grade will work, not look right, but work. You asked. And if you keep your hood closed, who would know.

Thank you, this was the other piece I was looking for. Once I get it running and driving around, one day, I'll worry about the little things like that. I keep thinking, what would someone that owned a model T in the late 20's do? Probably whatever was the simplest and easiest available. My horn (that came with other spare parts) appears to be from a Model A or later, and didn't fit the bracket from Langs until I drilled an extra hole. So who cares if the bolts holding everything on are also incorrect? I'll just be glad when the cooling system is functioning as originally designed, and my period correct (but not stock) horn makes an original...ish sound.

And of course we have the BOLT CHARTS on the Gallery Section, that are just waiting for corrections and missing details to be added. Feel free to have a look at PM me the corrections/ missing data https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/app.php/gallery/album/195


(Thanks to those who did this some time ago and my apologies that I lost the replies... which is why they have not been updated... (hangs head in shame) )

You may be interested to know that HEAD BOLTS were, in fact referred to as CYLINDER HEAD CAP SCREWS 'back in the day': https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/app.php/gallery/image/1507