MTFCA Forum

I have a 1924 Model T and I need to change the oil. I looked up what grade of oil to use and got a few different answers online. I am in NJ and will typically drive when it is warmer 40+ Degrees so it sounds 5W-30 should be sufficient, but I just want to make sure. Thanks for your help!

cmauro13 wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:38 am

I have a 1924 Model T and I need to change the oil. I looked up what grade of oil to use and got a few different answers online. I am in NJ and will typically drive when it is warmer 40+ Degrees so it sounds 5W-30 should be sufficient, but I just want to make sure. Thanks for your help!

This is a "Not Again Question" - suggest you use this Google search to see all the hundreds of previous, Historical, Personal and scientific responses. https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... +oil+MTFCA

5W30 should be just fine. Either regular oil, synthetic oil, or synthetic blends seem to work well. A low first number aids starting and cold engine lubrication.

10W30...

When you do some looking, you'll see that everyone has their favorite oil, and of those favorites, they run the entire gammut of available engine oils made today. From that, we can pretty much see that just about any oil**, intended for use in internal combustion engines, should work fine. The most important thing of all, is to never let it run low. Check your oil level each time you buy gas.


**Use no oil that lists graphite as an additive, if that is even offered any longer...

I like to use something I can buy on the road. Then I don't have to carry more than a quart or two and if needed I can find the same oil.
Rich

Had an oil engineer tell me that he runs 15w40 in everything because he wants his engines to last well beyond the warranty. Not sure if you have bought an extended warranty for your T, but it is something to keep in mind.

...we can pretty much see that just about any oil**, intended for use in internal combustion engines, should work fine.

A light multigrade like 5W-20 is recommended for modern cars like my Camry, but is too light for Model T use.


http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG103.html

I have always wondered if you can mix oils. Say you fill your car with 5W-30. A month later and only 20W-40 is available at the gas station you stop at. A month later you need another quart and can only get straight 30W. Will it really make much difference?

Will it really make much difference?

Practically nil. You are running the T on that mix of lube for the next complete oil change anyway.

Best to do complete change in 750-1000 miles.
Just changed the oil for the upcoming FL Winter T Tour, a gal. jug of of good grade oil , Wallymart @ $16.00.

Maintain the oil level at half way between the valves. Too far above the upper valve can cause excessive oil consumption. I learned the hard way. None of us want the level to get too low. I recommend staying between 10 - 30 and 15-40. I have read that the trans bands can slip excessively with synthetic oil. Maybe not with Kevlar lining

Art M.

Jerry is correct, "what kind of oil" is one of those recurring questions that draws a lot of opinions. A search will show the subject has been beaten to death.

I run Rotella 15w40 in all my older engines as it has more zinc (ZDDP). Modern oils have lowered the zinc content dramatically and it is an important anti-wear additive in older engines although I have been told it isn't as important in my T as in my 1952 Army Jeep, 1953 Ford Tractor and before I sold it, my 1989 powerboat. Don't be confused because it's described as Diesel oil, that just means it is approved for diesel use as well. I like that it comes in gallon bottles. I just drain the old out, pour the new in and put the old back in the bottle.

Most post that it's opinions, well I post as fact, if driving in normal T conditions, using a 5w-30 is just crazy. I'm telling you this as a Mechanic and a ticket in the science of engineering of some 50 years, all I do is rebuild Model T engines, machining and all, by design they or any engine for that matter of the period are not suitable for that lighter oil.

My near-stock Model T engine competed in the Montana 500 using 0W20 synthetic oil. The car finished every time it was entered and placed well, and it still runs just fine after running thousands of miles during the last hot Texas summer at speeds up to 50 MPH, about half of it on 0W20 oil. I run 10-30 or 10W40 synthetic in it. If I ran it in very cold weather, I'd use a 5W30 or add a pint of Marvel Mystery Oil to the 10W30. Today's 10W and 20W oils have better hot film strength than the best 1920s oils. Ford recommended what amounted to 20 weight oil with a low pour point for year 'round use. It's best not to run a T engine fast or under heavy load until it is warmed up, regardless of what oil you use. Running thick oil in a Model T will cause problems, and may lead to engine damage in cold weather.

Running a T for 500 miles 0w20 isn't the problem as the hot oil is 20, The most wear of an engine is on a cold start up, that is the most important time to have oil film in the bearings and pistons, a good example you can do on your T at home is put 0 or 5w oil in one spindle pin and a heavier oil in the other and see what's on the shed floor the next day.

FOR THE RECORD. I’m happy with the 10W-30 or 30W at Wal-Mart which ever is on sale.

Always fun to discuss oil for T engine (and transmission)

For modern use a 20w would be what Ford owners used back in the day, from looking at mat'l specs from Ford. Viscosity is maybe a good indicator.

All around weather conditions prevail, for me in FL the summer tours are warm, in fact all next week our weather is in the mid-80's! Fun.

So here are some comparisons, 20w is likely the proper in warm weather, but running 30w is satisfactory too.


Now, just need to run over to the WallyMart and get a jug of Gargoyle to be in spec!

A Model T engine, when cold, depends upon the oil having high fluidity in order that it can be easily moved throughout the engine by the splash system AND easily find its way into various tight spaces, such as rod and main bearings and upper cylinder areas. There is no oil pump on a T to force oil directly into these spaces. Model T engines have very large bearing surfaces relative to the loads placed upon those surfaces, and they do not require a thick oil to maintain a film between the moving parts. Running a T engine with thick oil, especially in cold weather and when it has yet to reach operating temperature, can result in a situation where the connecting rods will pass through the oil in the troughs more quickly than the oil can flow back together in the trough behind the rod. This can contribute to the rod bearings starving for oil. As late as 1949, Chevrolet specified 10W oil for engines, and recommended atdding 10% kerosene to the oil when operating at very cold temperatures. The Chevrolet engine had a better oiling system than the T, having pressure lube to the main bearings and "jets" of oil aimed at the rod dippers, and motor oil in 1949 was generally of substantially higher quality than what was available in the 1920s. In addition, it should be noted that thick oil will not repair loose rods. The T transmission does not need heavy oil, either.

Kerry

what you know through education or by personal experience over the years is no match for the "upvote" or "downvote" button in a world guided by poling and opinion. Consequently, you will be busy in your shop until you quit or simply keel over.

According to Steve Jelf's chart, 10W30 covers the temperatures. In which we usually drive the T. Perhaps 10W40 in very hot weather.
Synthetic oil is made for modern cars with full pressurized systems with full flow filters. It can be used for about 5,000 miles. Because we have no filters other than a screen over the transmission, we need to change the oil more often. Synthetic costs more and is a waste of money. So the standard detergent oil will work just fine in a T. Also because of the gravity flow oil system we shouldn't use high viscosity oils such as 40 or higher. Perhaps only if driven every day during very hot weather and changed as soon as it cools down.

Norm

When I first was setting up my barn find pickup Henrietta for a return to duty, I drained the sludge in the pan first. I thought I should use a light weight oil to help flush out her innards so went with 5 w 30, ran her long enough to get her up to temperature, and then drained that for another clean dose. of the same. With that in the crankcase, she ran no 1 rod bearing 5 miles into a 45 mile drive. Coincidence or not, I have reverted to 20 w 40. Our climate here [think southern Ca] means I do not have to use thin stuff, even for flushing so it seems.

Allan from down under.

Most likely, the rod bearing failed for some other reason, perhaps due to the sludge.

0W20, for instance, behaves like OW at low temperatures, and it behaves like 20W at operating temperatures. 20W is equivalent to what Ford recommended for the Model T, and about any 20W today is superior to what Ford based their recommendation on a century ago.

20W is equivalent to what Ford recommended for the Model T...

That's true. Royce has a good explanation on his website of how we know that. But 5W-20 and 0W-20 are not the same as 20W, as I wrongly assumed. I believe my use of 5W-20 was probably a contributing factor in my famous rod failure in Wisconsin a few years ago. Since that time I've consulted with a couple of true Model T experts known for long distance driving. Based on their responses, I'm now using so-called "diesel" oil (15W-40), Super Tech if its available or Rotella if it isn't.

Most likely, the internal oil pipe is clogged. That supplies oil to the front of the engine and from there it runs back to the back of the engine and into the crankcase. This would be especially bad if you are going uphill. I like to run another oil line down from the magneto plug to the front of the engine so it has two oil lines. You can check the flow of oil by starting up the engine and removing the bolt under the inspection plate. The bolt in the front of the engine. There should be a steady flow of oil at that point.
Norm

What i know is the lower number is based on a cold temp of -20F and the high number is operating temp. The broader the range, the longer the molecule and the easier it will fracture and break down. That is why a straight weight oil will last longer, because it is basically round and not prone to break. None of this takes into account dirt or wear particulates. Hence the need to change your oil at interval.

this looks about right

Well Caleb, your question has been answered clear as mud in this thread:

5W30
10W30
SAE30
15W40
SAE20
10W40
20W40
0W20

0W-20 was mentioned too. Discussion of this topic often fails to achieve consensus, but there's some good technical info in the posts.

If you average the numbers for the 6 different multigrade oils suggested, you come up with 10W-33.33

My T engine has no kingpins. Ford Motor Company (As if they knew a damned thing about Model Ts) pointed out that heavy oil is not to be used in Model T engines. They recommended a HIGH QUALITY, light to medium bodied (about SAE 20W) oil with a LOW cold test/pour point. A good, light bodied oil will flow, splash, and create oily mist well immediately upon startup, especially in colder weather, and it will quickly reach and penetrate all points in the engine requiring lubrication. I addition, the Ford multi-plate clutch works best with a light bodied oil, especially in cold weather. Thick, sluggish, stringy oil is the last thing the Ford T engine and transmission need. That stuff goes in the rear axle, if anywhere. A light bodied oil that does not thicken excessively when cold is necessary for the engine's lubrication system to work as designed. Modern multi-grade oils with a low first number easily meet and exceed that requirement. A high quality, single grade 20W oil would also meet it, but a multi-grade 10W20 or 10W30 would exceed it. There are some single grade oils available today that are of poor quality, being essentially straight mineral oil. I'd make sure any single grade oil I put in any engine, including a lawnmower, was of high quality and inteded for use in modern engines and that it at least met the specs for whatever I was putting it in.

5W30
10W30
SAE30
15W40
SAE20
10W40
20W40
0W20......
Any of these will give good results in a Model T engine that is in good condition in mild weather, asssuming they are of good quality. I'd avoid 30W, since it goes against Ford's recommendation. I would not use it at all in cold weather. For general use in most areas, 10/20 or 10/30 should be fine. If you are operating in areas with cold winters, 5W20 or 0W20 is a good choice. If your engine is worn out, a multi-grade with a higher second number may give better results, or not. Of course, you can always put one of the Teflon TV miracle products in your engine, and then you won't need to put any oil in it at all, so they say.

Temperature range is not the only factor to consider in selecting an oil. The internals of a Model T engine are nothing like a modern 4 cylinder. Stock T engine have no have no oil filter, pump, rpm range, bearings, etc etc of Today's engines. In addition the "oil" is lubricating the transmission.
Since the engine uses "splash lubrication" a light weight oil is best to get a coating on internals at startup, then a heavier weight to keep things lubricated when the engine heats up. That's the advantage of a multi-viscosity oil. The low end weight value is dependent on ambient temperature and the high end is more dependent of engine condition.
*Another consideration is that transmission uses a "wet clutch" and the transmission bands are also lubricated (see diagram). Many motorcycles also use the same principle. "Motorcycle oils" contain friction modifiers - specification JASO MA.
Example:
SHELL ROTELLA ® T6 (T4 also JASCO MA/MA2) API: CK-4, CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4 ACEA E9, JASO DH-2, Cummins CES 20086; Volvo VDS-4.5; Detroit Fluid Specification DDC (DFS) 93K222, Caterpillar ECF-2/ECF-3, MAN M3575, JASO MA/ MA2, Allison TES 439, MB-Approval 228.3
JASO MA: Oils for motorcycles with a wet clutch. These oils deliver the needed friction performance to prevent the clutch from slipping and are therefore non-friction modified. These oils can be used in 4-stroke motorcycle engines where there is one oil system in place for the engine, gearbox and clutch. MA oils are suitable for all applications.
-JASO MA: This is the standard specification for oils that are used within one oil system (where the engine, gearbox and clutch use the same oil). These oils don’t contain any friction modifiers.
-JASO MA2: This is a higher standard specification for modern motorcycles. These oils are suitable for use in motorcycles that have catalytic converters in the exhaust system.
*Most Synthetic Oil is basically just oil that has had modifiers added to it resulting in a higher price.
*Since the engine has no oil filter, frequent oil changes should be considered. Non-detergents became popular during a time when oil filters were seen only an option and not an industry standard. They act as a magnet for contaminants and gather all the bad contaminants that damage your engine and prevent them from sticking to the side walls and open cracks. This is commonly known as engine build-up or “sludge”. Non-detergent oils are compatible with unrestored engines on older vehicles and vehicles that are consistently using non-detergent oils. Detergent oils are designed to keep contaminants in suspension so they can be trapped in an oil filter as the oil is circulated through the engine. So, if you haven't dropped the inspection pan to see what sludge buildup you have, better do so. There are many myths and facts about switching from one to another. I'll leave it at that.
*Price consideration - Today's oils are designed with additives, synthetics and for Today's oil filters thus allowing for long duration between oil changes. Model T oil changes need to revert to the original specification - 500 miles --
So
OLD Discussion http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1415398956

Detergent oils keep crud in suspension where non-detergent oils will allow it to deposit on inside engine surfaces, especially when any moisture is present. Oil filters are nice, and they do trap some particulates, such as metal, dust, and carbon particles above a certain size. They do not trap dissolved gums, oxidized oil, and combustion products which form sludge and varnish, and they have a very limited ability to trap moisture. Particulates contribute bulk to sludge, but they play only a minor role in actually forming it. Detergent oil keeps very fine particulates in suspension while preventing gum and varnish deposition, which allows these contaminants to be drained off when the oil is changed. Detergent oil will tend to erode already existing deposits within an engine, but they are primarily designed to prevent deposits forming in the first place. A T engine in good condition with an air filter in place need not have the oil changed more often than 1500-2000 miles, as long as it is getting some road miles in temperate weather. This assumes the engine is in good shape and the fuel mixture is being properly regulated. A transmission cover screen and magnet, an air filter, and a drain plug magnet are useful adjuncts. Anything that can be done to keep road dust out of the engine will be beneficial. Synthetic oils resist shear far better than conventional oils, and their high film strength and viscosity stability make them well-suited to lubricating the T transmission.

T clutches are metal-to metal, much like the piston/cylinder interface. Most motorcycles use lined plates. I get good brake and band action with synthetic oil.

Ha ha my TT leaks oil that fast it does not really have time to "stick around" long, so I just keep him fed with what is at hand....

Back in the 20th Century, when we had gas stations and cars used canned motor oil of various brands, the gas jockeys would keep a 5 gallon can out front to park the assorted emptied cans, spout down, in. The emptied cans all dripped some oil, and over time, a considerable amount of new oil would accumulate in the bucket. Poor folk and teenaged boys would buy the oil by the quart for a quarter or so. It was "a blend of the world's finest motor oils", and we considered it superior to Cook's "re-run" oil, which sold for 19 cents a quart. Most stations had a display rack out by the pumps with several cans of assorted brands of motor oil. Gas, regular, 16.9 cents a gallon. Oil, qt, 19 and cents up. I never had any problem with the mixed oil, other than getting enough of it.

"Ha ha my TT leaks oil that fast it does not really have time to "stick around" long, so I just keep him fed with what is at hand...." Around here, Walmart 10/30 in the 5 qt bottle would be the cheapest solution.

Pat,
At the local gas station in the late 1950s, the pump jockey got the oil drippings for his own car. When pooring into customers car, he made sure to leave some for himself.

Art

I'd guess that kid is in the U.S. Congress today....

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:56 pm

I'd guess that kid is in the U.S. Congress today....

I believe he used to run Enron.

When I was about 18 I drove a Model A from Montrose, in the Los Angeles area and over the grapevine to Sacramento and then into the Sierras to Quincy. Then down through Reno and Mohave and back to Montrose. When I started out I had a 5 gallon can of water and a 5 gallon can of oil which I got from the gas station. This oil was drained out of the cars which came in for oil changes. So it was all used oil of every brand and viscosity. Every so often the car would overheat and I would pull over and let it cool while I took a nap. By the time I had gotten to Mohave, I had used up all the oil and had to buy some. The car made it home, but water was in the crankcase and oil was in the radiator! I went down to the wrecking yard and got a used engine and tied it on the running board and brought it home and put it in the car. Unfortunately, I also used the same old leaky radiator. That was my first car.
Norm