Let's talk gasoline

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
Jfmarkham
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:15 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Markham
Location: New york

Let's talk gasoline

Post by Jfmarkham » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:30 pm

Been a lot of threads about oil,what about gas,should we be running non ethanol or 10% ethanol? And what about lead additive, I have a older Ford tractor that tractor people tell me I have to add lead additive, should we also do it in the T?


Scott_Conger
Posts: 1979
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:50 pm

Add lead to "T" gas only if you want to feed it something that was never around when it was new. Lead wasn't added to fuel until the mid 1920's.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


Rich Bingham
Posts: 852
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:23 am
First Name: Rich
Last Name: Bingham
Location: Blackfoot, Idaho

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Rich Bingham » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:53 pm

Probably 'twas ever thus, you never know for sure just what, exactly is in gasoline, and it's probably just as well, as it would take a PhD in chemistry to understand the wherefore of all the things that's been done to fuel the past 40 years owing to efforts to reduce air pollution.

Gasoline/ethanol blends may cause more or less problems depending on where you're located, and how long a tankful is laid by. Also, it's been reported that in some places "ethanol free" gasoline may not have ethanol, but could have methanol. Some swear by gasoline stabilizers and additives, others think it's "whiffle dust".

Re/ "lead replacer" additives - my experience has been that they don't really work. If an underpowered engine normally runs at such extremes of load that valve seat recession was avoided in the days when tetraethyl lead was added to gasoline, the only effective "cure" nowadays is to run hardened seats and stainless valves. MHO, neither a gasoline farm tractor nor a Model T normally sees that kind of stress, and should be able to get along just fine without leaded gasoline. After all, "Ethyl" wasn't even widely available until after the Model T had reached the end of production.
"Get a horse !"

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 1927
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:58 pm

There was no lead in gasoline during most of Model T production. Leaded gas came on the market abut the time Model T production ended. It was for higher compression engines, which the Model T engine definitely is not. People putting lead additive into their Model T's are wasting money. I use whatever fuel is least expensive, unless it's E-85. Usually the 10% stuff is least costly, and it's never given me any trouble in a Model T. I did once have to clean out an aluminum carburetor on a splitter that sat for several months with 10% in it.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


Peter, Memphis TN
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:00 pm
First Name: Peter
Last Name: Claverie
Location: Memphis, TN

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Peter, Memphis TN » Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:02 pm

I don't qualify as an authority, but here's what I have gleaned from reading this Forum and other sources for many years:

About gasoline: Like oil, any gasoline you buy today is light years better than was available when your tractor (or Model T) was built. About ethanol, however, there are some reasons not to use it. One, ethanol has less power than gasoline, so gasoline with ethanol in it delivers less power. The difference may be difficult to notice. Further, ethanol tends to corrode certain metals and rubbers, so it may do some damage to your fuel system, especially on an old vehicle or tractor. Third, ethanol seems to attract moisture, so it tends to cause a buildup of water in the tank, which can cause a rust problem. Also, the "lead" in gasoline was added when car engines were high compression, to hold down knocking. Modern "unleaded" gasoline is more like what your engine was designed for, so use it with confidence.

About oil: Again, the cheapest oil you can buy today is quantum leaps ahead of what Henry had to work with, so use whatever you want. Multi-grade oils, like 10-W30, make it easier to start in cold weather, but otherwise are not much of an improvement. About the lead, however, there are some points.

Lead was added to oil back in the day when the tappets resting on the cam shaft were simple solid steel, and the higher revolutions of '50's and '60's engines caused them to use stronger valve springs, to keep the valves from bouncing. The lead helped to 'cushion' the camshafts, lowering the friction and wear. Later, roller tappets were introduced, making the lead in the oil un-necessary. Now, it's true your tractor engine, like our Model T engines, have flat tappets, causing some to feel that adding lead to the oil is a good idea. It should be noted, however, that these are low-speed engines, and have relatively weak valve springs. What I've gleaned from several years' worth of posts on this subject is that most feel adding lead to the oil in a Model T engine (or Ford tractor engine) is a waste of time.

I hope all this helps. I'm sure there will be some who challenge my conclusions, but that's what this Forum is for.


Tom Hicks
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:07 pm
First Name: Thomas
Last Name: Hicks
Location: Chesterfield, VA
MTFCA Number: 32518

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Tom Hicks » Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:06 pm

Gasoline suffers in cars that sit. Gasoline was made to burn, not store. Just put in a fuel filter and drive your car a couple of times a week.

For long term storage, drain all gasoline and make sure the carburetor is dry.
Technology, the solution to all of our problems... and the cause of most of them.

User avatar

RustyFords
Posts: 939
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:16 am
First Name: Don
Last Name: Allen
Location: Houston, TX
MTFCA Number: 50001

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by RustyFords » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:06 pm

I've taken apart a few aluminum Edelbrock 4 barrel carbs that sat for over a month with 10% ethanol in them and they get a chalky, white residue in them that they don't like.

I haven't seen that as much with non-aluminum carbs.
1924 Touring

User avatar

Marv K
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:44 pm
First Name: Marv
Last Name: Konrad
Location: Green Bay area
Board Member Since: 2010

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Marv K » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:09 pm

Ethanol content may or may not cause a problem for you. Personally, I don't wish to take the chance, since 'non-ethanol' is available locally. Even my small engines seem to provide a reward of longevity without problems which I had experienced with ethanol content.
"Aged" gasoline becomes a different problem, however, ultimately turning to varnish. This is a thread from 2017 that addresses that problem.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 1506620251
"Let's Figgur it owt!" Just fix it (right), and make it work.....
Aah-OO-Gah! (and), "Happy T-ing!"

User avatar

REHelgeson
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:13 pm
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Helgeson
Location: Illinois
MTFCA Number: 31827
MTFCI Number: 25052
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by REHelgeson » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:14 pm

Lead additive for gasoline is nothing more than a top oil. Personally I use a top oil every other tank full of gasoline. The reasoning is anything to give me a little lubrication to the valves and upper cylinder surely can't hurt. Having said that to each his own. I am not telling anyone they should use top oil. My own opinion.

User avatar

RustyFords
Posts: 939
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:16 am
First Name: Don
Last Name: Allen
Location: Houston, TX
MTFCA Number: 50001

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by RustyFords » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:22 pm

REHelgeson wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:14 pm
Lead additive for gasoline is nothing more than a top oil. Personally I use a top oil every other tank full of gasoline. The reasoning is anything to give me a little lubrication to the valves and upper cylinder surely can't hurt. Having said that to each his own. I am not telling anyone they should use top oil. My own opinion.
What do you use for top oil?

I remember my grandfather talking about adding a bit of diesel to his car's gas periodically.
1924 Touring

User avatar

REHelgeson
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:13 pm
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Helgeson
Location: Illinois
MTFCA Number: 31827
MTFCI Number: 25052
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by REHelgeson » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:43 pm

Don, it depends on what I have on hand. A lot of the time I use MMO. Now everyone don't go nuts. MMO is a top oil and has been around almost as long as the Model T. As long as I can remember you could always find a can of it in every farm shop or mechanics shop in town. I've also used a commercially available Lead replacement which I purchase at the local Autozone. Can't remember the name of that product but in both cases works well. I don't have issues with plug fouling or smoking. Doesn't take much per tank full. Like I said to each his own. This is what I do and it works for me.

User avatar

REHelgeson
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:13 pm
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Helgeson
Location: Illinois
MTFCA Number: 31827
MTFCI Number: 25052
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by REHelgeson » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:45 pm

I should have also stated that I too have heard of a bit of diesel fuel being used for a top oil. Generally you hear that from the old timers and to be honest I've heard it from enough of them to believe that it would in fact work.


John kuehn
Posts: 675
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Kuehn
Location: Texas
MTFCA Number: 28924

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by John kuehn » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:09 pm

I also have an old Ford tractor. It’s a 54 Ford NAA that runs pretty good. I use it regularly for mowing and etc.
I use regular gas and have used Marvel Mystery Oil in it for years. Don’t know where people get the idea of using a lead additive for a Ford tractor or for Model T’s.
The regular gas and cheap store brand oil is way better than what was available back in the “old days”. And MMO is pretty good also and I can already see the eyes rolling already besides folks pulling their hair out!

User avatar

Oldav8tor
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Juhl
Location: Thumb of Michigan
MTFCA Number: 50297
MTFCI Number: 24810

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Oldav8tor » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:47 pm

I have a 1953 Ford Jubilee (the tractor that ate my foot) and have been running unleaded in it for 25 years without issue. The only leaded gas being sold today is for aircraft engines. It is possible to get approval to burn non-alcohol car gas in some aircraft engines but they recommend that the engine be run on leaded aircraft fuel initially after overhaul as the lead has some valve guide lubrication value in engines designed for it. I'm not an engineer so I take their word for it. As others have said, the model T was designed around lead free gas of much lower quality than is available today. My only suggestion is to drain your tank before letting the car sit for a long time. Draining any fuel that's left in the carb is also a really good practice as a little gum or contamination can really mess them up.
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor


Steve Hughes
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:09 am
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Hughes
Location: Raymond, NE
MTFCA Number: 216
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 23070

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Steve Hughes » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:55 pm

I’ll put my two cents worth in. Most of what I’ve seen posted I agree with, but I also see some misinformation. Here is what I think I know. Lead was added to gasoline when the compression ratio got high enough to cause preignition or “pinging”. Adding the lead increased the octane and stopped the pinging. Since the Model T and also your tractor are low compression engines, the lead is not needed.

Now for Peter’s post regarding “lead” added to oil. I am afraid he is mistaken regarding this. It was ZDDP that was added to the oil. This is a compound of zinc and phosphorus whose purpose was to reduce the wear on cams and lifters on high performance flat tappet engines. These were high revving engines and therefore had high valve spring pressures to keep them from floating at the high rpms. The high spring pressure caused excessive wear and the zinc and phosphorus alleviated the wear. Again the Model T and tractor are not high rpm engines and do not need the ZDDP.


Kerry
Posts: 288
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:42 pm
First Name: Frank
Last Name: van Ekeren
Location: Rosedale Vic Australia

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Kerry » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:39 pm

For what I remember when researching some years back, and with out looking it up all again, adding lead to fuel for preformance was well after it's original intent. In europe, mid teens, WW1, they were looking for an additive to stop petrol from freezing at altitude in plane engines. The best at the time was platinum but too costly, lead was second best. The advancing and higher compression more power etc, all come later because of the fuel research back then, hense why aviation fuel still contains lead today.


Tiger Tim
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:09 pm
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Eckensviller
Location: Thunder Bay, ON

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Tiger Tim » Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:33 am

The trouble with talking about gasoline is that the gas I buy is probably different from the gas you buy, even if the pumps are labelled the same. There are regional blends, and seasonal blends, which I guess means there are also regional seasonal blends. So far the cheap 10% ethanol has worked just fine for me in a car that largely sits but others will say the stuff in my tank should be just about tar by now. I figure if it goes sour in your lawnmower (or eats the fuel line off, or whatever) then don’t put it in your T, otherwise give it a shot.

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 1927
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:49 am

Just put in a fuel filter ...
Not me. That's often a cause of fuel starvation.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


John Codman
Posts: 158
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:27 am
First Name: John
Last Name: Codman
Location: Naples, FL 34120

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by John Codman » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:32 am

I've been around a bit, and had never heard that lead was added to lubricating oil to provide an additional "cushion" to flat tappet camshafts. I was aware that ZDDP (Zinc) was added for that purpose, but that's about it. I'm not calling anyone wrong, but I would like to see some conformation on the lead in oil.


Tom Hicks
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:07 pm
First Name: Thomas
Last Name: Hicks
Location: Chesterfield, VA
MTFCA Number: 32518

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Tom Hicks » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:24 am

Steve Jelf wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:49 am
Just put in a fuel filter ...
Not me. That's often a cause of fuel starvation.
Yep, if the filter gets blocked it will definitely need changing. And it indicates your tank needs cleaning. But I would rather change the filter than have the crap that clogged the filter clog my carburetor instead!
Technology, the solution to all of our problems... and the cause of most of them.


Scott_Conger
Posts: 1979
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:36 am

But I would rather change the filter than have the crap that clogged the filter clog my carburetor instead!
If that is the case, be sure to wear comfortable walking shoes when you drive...you will need them.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


Tom Hicks
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:07 pm
First Name: Thomas
Last Name: Hicks
Location: Chesterfield, VA
MTFCA Number: 32518

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Tom Hicks » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:44 am

Scott_conger wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:36 am
But I would rather change the filter than have the crap that clogged the filter clog my carburetor instead!
If that is the case, be sure to wear comfortable walking shoes when you drive...you will need them.
3 running T's, several thousand miles per year, standard lawnmower filters, no problems yet! Haven't even had to change a filter.

If you don't use a filter, get ready to rebuild carbs!
Technology, the solution to all of our problems... and the cause of most of them.

User avatar

Ruxstel24
Posts: 1660
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:25 am
First Name: Dave
Last Name: Hanlon
Location: NE Ohio
MTFCA Number: 50191
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:57 am

The way I always understood lead was...
Higher compression and high reving engines with stronger valve springs to keep from "floating" the valves, needed higher octane fuel and lead increases octane and helps lube and cool the valve seats.
Hence the reason for stainless seats/valves with the elimination of lead additives. You also seldom see a big ridge on cylinders with unleaded fuel.
Preignition/pinging is caused by high combustion chamber temperature. Higher octane fuel has a higher flash point, pinging is essentially the charge igniting before it should. Timing also effects this.

All that is pretty irrelevant in a low compression, low rpm T engine.

Now ethanol...I avoid it. It shortens the storage life of gasoline drastically and makes a big ole mess if neglected for only a month or two.
Just not worth the hassle to take the chance.


Scott_Conger
Posts: 1979
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:57 am

If you don't use a filter, get ready to rebuild carbs!
Tom

based on your above quote, with respect to T carbs, I would suggest that you don't know, what you don't know. That's OK...not everyone knows about T carbs, but your statement with respect to Model T's is simply inaccurate.

It is excellent that your T's run so well with filters...that proves that your sediment bulb and screen are performing as designed, and that you don't need a filter. Filters are notorious for restricting fuel flow in gravity fed systems.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


Tom Hicks
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:07 pm
First Name: Thomas
Last Name: Hicks
Location: Chesterfield, VA
MTFCA Number: 32518

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Tom Hicks » Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:52 pm

Scott_conger wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:57 am
If you don't use a filter, get ready to rebuild carbs!
Tom

based on your above quote, with respect to T carbs, I would suggest that you don't know, what you don't know. That's OK...not everyone knows about T carbs, but your statement with respect to Model T's is simply inaccurate.

It is excellent that your T's run so well with filters...that proves that your sediment bulb and screen are performing as designed, and that you don't need a filter. Filters are notorious for restricting fuel flow in gravity fed systems.
So, why don'tmy lawn mower filters restrict the flow to my T carbs? In fairness one is a Stromberg 97, not a NH, but still on a T, same filter, and no problem.

I recently helped a guy get his '18 started. There was about a 1/2 " of crap built up in the bowl of the carb.

Don't all modern engines have fuel filters? Why? I know my lawn mower and generator do.

So what is it about the T carburetor that it doesn't benefit from a filter preventing crap from the gas tank getting into it?

If your filter is restricting flow, you need a new filter and be glad whatever was blocking your filter did not get to your carburetor.


Please, another expert besides Mr. Conger, explain to me why a model T should not have a filter in the fuel line?

Or even Mr. Conger, what is it I don't know that I don't know about Model T carbs?
Technology, the solution to all of our problems... and the cause of most of them.


Rich Bingham
Posts: 852
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:23 am
First Name: Rich
Last Name: Bingham
Location: Blackfoot, Idaho

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Rich Bingham » Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:51 pm

Tom Hicks wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:52 pm
So, why don'tmy lawn mower filters restrict the flow to my T carbs?
Tom, I'd hazard the reason is because you (fortunately) don't have a problem with "crap" in your fuel tank, and you indicated that you change out the filters in regular maintenance. When an in-line filter collects enough "stuff" in a gravity system, flow will be restricted. I've only been reading on these boards for a couple of years, yet in that time, many posts have been made hoping to diagnose problems with poor running or non-starting Ts, where the cause has been found to be an inline fuel filter. In most cases, the filter wasn't immeditely identified as the culprit, as fuel still flowed through the line - just not enough to provide adequate fuel pressure under load, the resulting stuttering, missing or quitting often mimicking ignition woes. As the old saying goes, 99% of carburetion problems are electrical, and vice-versa.

The stock system, i.e., the "spud" sediment bulb under the tank, with a fine screen over the outlet has proven adequate since inception to keep "crap" out of the carb without restricting flow. It is true it's nowhere nearly as refined as modern filters, hence the "stuff" you found in the carb bowl of the '18. The cure for that is the drain cock on the carb bowl.
"Get a horse !"


Rich Bingham
Posts: 852
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:23 am
First Name: Rich
Last Name: Bingham
Location: Blackfoot, Idaho

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Rich Bingham » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:22 pm

Ruxstel24 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:57 am
. . . lead increases octane and helps lube and cool the valve seats . . .
Interesting to learn that tetraethyl lead was added to aviation gasoline to prevent gelling so early on. I never knew that. Like most terrestrials, my interest in it was automotive. By the late 20's, the petroleum industry began to improve fuels, about the same time auto makers were raising compression ratios. The result was detonation, or "octane ping", as low octane gas would pre-ignite, causing loss of power and annoyance for the motorist. When tetraethyl lead was added to raise octane, other problems obtained in the form of residues which fouled spark plugs and gummed up rings. Other amendments were necessary to reduce the formation of the residues left by combustion. Enter the legend that "leaded gasoline lubricates valves".

A beneficial side-effect of leaded gasoline was the formation of lead halides on the surfaces of exhaust valve seats and faces. As compression ratios and highway speeds rose ever higher through the 1930s - 1960s, developed exhaust gas temperatures could cause a valve to become hot enough to microscopically "weld" itself to the seat - then pulling a few molecules of seat material away upon opening, eventually the valve could become an abrasive tool, increasingly destroying the valve seat and eventually causing compression loss, and poor performance. The lead halides coating those surfaces served as a sort of "anti-flux", not actually "lubricating" valves in the usual sense, but nevertheless preventing rapid valve failures which became common in many engines after lead was prohibited from being an element in gasoline.

That the "ban lead" movement knew full well what the result would be when leaded gasoline was no longer available was pretty much proven by the incremental steps that were taken as its availability was curtailed. Leaded gasoline remained available for farm use for a period long after it had become prohibited for highway vehicles.
"Get a horse !"


Tom Hicks
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:07 pm
First Name: Thomas
Last Name: Hicks
Location: Chesterfield, VA
MTFCA Number: 32518

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Tom Hicks » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:33 pm

Scott_conger wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:57 am
If you don't use a filter, get ready to rebuild carbs!
Tom

based on your above quote, with respect to T carbs, I would suggest that you don't know, what you don't know. That's OK...not everyone knows about T carbs, but your statement with respect to Model T's is simply inaccurate.

It is excellent that your T's run so well with filters...that proves that your sediment bulb and screen are performing as designed, and that you don't need a filter. Filters are notorious for restricting fuel flow in gravity fed systems.
Actually, no, none of my T's have sediment bulbs. Why should they? Two of my T's have gas tanks that have been cleans and sealed, where will sediment come from. The speedster has a plastic tank, it should not have any sediment either. I could get some dirt in the tank when filling at the station, or from using a gas can, but no problems so far.


Keeping the fuel system clean is pretty basic, starting with a clean and sealed tank helps. If your tank is dirty or corroding on the inside you are asking for problems. And they will eventually manifest themselves in the carburetor, a very mysterious device that very few understand. Many don't even know what they don't know...


Look at these pictures Ester, grab your pearls, where's my nitro???
Attachments
No sediment bulb, it won't run!
No sediment bulb, it won't run!
Air filter???  NO, Henry didn't have one...
Air filter??? NO, Henry didn't have one...
Heresy, pure heresy!
Heresy, pure heresy!
Technology, the solution to all of our problems... and the cause of most of them.


Scott_Conger
Posts: 1979
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:08 pm

If it works fine, it's a small point, but the large end of the filter goes toward the carb, not the tank.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


Tom Hicks
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:07 pm
First Name: Thomas
Last Name: Hicks
Location: Chesterfield, VA
MTFCA Number: 32518

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Tom Hicks » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:28 pm

Scott_conger wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:08 pm
If it works fine, it's a small point, but the large end of the filter goes toward the carb, not the tank.
You mean the end which is white on the left side in the picture goes to the carburetor? That is how I have it.
Technology, the solution to all of our problems... and the cause of most of them.

User avatar

jagiven
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:13 am
First Name: Jason
Last Name: Given
Location: St. Paiul

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by jagiven » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:56 pm

I add ATF (automotive transmission fluid) to each tank of fuel. About 1/2 oz per gallon. Started doing this after watching a Jay Leno video. He said he uses up one once per gallon. I felt a change as soon as the fuel in the carb, was used up. Been doing this ever since.

I also found my T has a lot more power with ethonal free fuel.


Gil Fitzhugh
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:39 pm
First Name: Gilbert
Last Name: Fitzhugh
Location: Morristown, NJ 07960
MTFCI Number: 20696

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Gil Fitzhugh » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:49 pm

I use regular E-10 pump gas, the same stuff your Aunt Minnie puts in her Toyota. My garage is heated enough to take the chill off.

I've been able to drive my T off and on all winter, whenever it had rained enough to wash the salt off the roads. I've gone to yoga, to lunch, to the barber, to the bank, for a joyride, sometimes in temperatures below freezing. I've bought gas, maybe, twice since fall. No problems.

Last Christmas day I took my single-cylinder Cadillac to visit my sister in her assisted living facility. On the way home, my water overflow tank rusted through, and I finished the trip on a flatbed. Yesterday I finally got the new overflow tank installed and fired up the car on gas that been sitting in the tank for 3-1/2 months. I primed it, pulled the engine through an intake stroke, and it ran on the first compression stroke. No problems.

Today I started my 1912 Buick for the first time since October. There was one gallon of 6-month-old gas in the tank, which wasn't enough for the hills where I live, so I added a gallon of six-week-old gas I'd bought for the snowblower that I hadn't had to use. It started on the second pull and ran fine. No problems.

Your mileage may vary.

Gil Fitzhugh the Elder


Jerry VanOoteghem
Posts: 131
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:06 pm
First Name: Jerry
Last Name: VanOoteghem
Location: S.E. Michigan

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:50 pm

Tom Hicks wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:33 pm
Scott_conger wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:57 am
If you don't use a filter, get ready to rebuild carbs!
Tom

based on your above quote, with respect to T carbs, I would suggest that you don't know, what you don't know. That's OK...not everyone knows about T carbs, but your statement with respect to Model T's is simply inaccurate.

It is excellent that your T's run so well with filters...that proves that your sediment bulb and screen are performing as designed, and that you don't need a filter. Filters are notorious for restricting fuel flow in gravity fed systems.
Actually, no, none of my T's have sediment bulbs. Why should they? Two of my T's have gas tanks that have been cleans and sealed, where will sediment come from. The speedster has a plastic tank, it should not have any sediment either. I could get some dirt in the tank when filling at the station, or from using a gas can, but no problems so far.


Keeping the fuel system clean is pretty basic, starting with a clean and sealed tank helps. If your tank is dirty or corroding on the inside you are asking for problems. And they will eventually manifest themselves in the carburetor, a very mysterious device that very few understand. Many don't even know what they don't know...


Look at these pictures Ester, grab your pearls, where's my nitro???

You won't use a sediment bulb, but you have a gas filter?

"...Two of my T's have gas tanks that have been cleans and sealed, where will sediment come from. The speedster has a plastic tank, it should not have any sediment either." So what does the filter do, besides rob fuel flow?


Tom Hicks
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:07 pm
First Name: Thomas
Last Name: Hicks
Location: Chesterfield, VA
MTFCA Number: 32518

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Tom Hicks » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:09 pm

Sediment bulbs are not good at keeping small particles in the gas from getting to the carburetor. I have seen the clogged carburetors as a result of using a sediment bulb. A sediment bulb is not a filter.

I use 5 gallon cans to store gasoline for my generators. They are plastic. Somehow over time small contaminants appear in them. I have no idea where this stuff comes from, but I know it can't get through the fuel filters! A fuel filter protects your carburetor from crap in your gas, a sediment bulb does not.

Why do you say a fuel filter robs fuel flow? A new filter provides plenty of flow. A filter that is clogged with contaminants has protected your carburetor and needs replacing. Replacing a fuel filter is easy and inexpensive.

Are the people who really hate fuel filters the same ones as those who rebuild carburetors?

I am going to guess that there are owners who have used a fuel filter and removed it when it got clogged and the engine started running poorly. When they removed it the engine ran great again! So they blamed the fuel filter for their problems. But the filter had actually saved their carburetor up to that point. With the filter removed the contaminants would start getting into the carburetor. There would carburetor trouble down the road.

Using a fuel filter is just common sense. Replacing it is just simple maintenance.

Threads on carburetion problems often get amusing with talk of leaky grose jets, worn viton tips, lapping needle valves with tooth paste, etc. Lots of opinions! But the bottom line is that if you keep the contaminants out of your carburetor in the first place you will have a lot fewer problems.
Technology, the solution to all of our problems... and the cause of most of them.


Jerry VanOoteghem
Posts: 131
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:06 pm
First Name: Jerry
Last Name: VanOoteghem
Location: S.E. Michigan

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:36 pm

Tom,

"With the filter removed the contaminants would start getting into the carburetor. There would carburetor trouble down the road."

That has never happened to me.

User avatar

dobro1956
Posts: 430
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:13 pm
First Name: Donnie
Last Name: Brown
Location: Hills of Arkansas

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by dobro1956 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:11 am

The following is a copy of an entry, I posted to a thread several years ago. I have been retired about 10 years, but little has changed. They still rely heavily on Alki-Units to produce gasoline .. They have been trying different additives to help with the "spoiling" of the gas, with limited success. Since I have been out of the "loop" for sometime, I am not aware of all the new changes with the additives currently used ..

I used to work in oil refineries before I retired as a Boilermaker. What was explained to me by the refinery operators about todays gas was: There are 2 problems with todays gasoline. Alcohol and Alkali. Their names sound alike so alcohol gets all the blame. They both create different problems. Years ago we had tetraethyl lead. It was added to gasoline to help cushion the valves and raise the octane. This saved the crude oil a trip thru the cat cracker, which is part of the process of making gasoline. When they did away with tetraethyl lead they were forced to start running the crude thru the cat crackers twice, and that greatly raised the price of making gasoline. So the refineries started making "Alki-units" That is a refining system that uses Alkali as one of the steps to remove impurities from the crude oil. The alki-units save one trip thru the expensive cat crackers and gives a good octane gasoline. The problem is all the alkali does not come back out of the finished product. The remaining alkali is what causes todays gasoline to "spoil" quicker, rots rubber hoses, eats up our cork floats ect. Anything carbon based is attacked by the alkali, including the gasoline itself. If you are old enough to remember the day of washing parts in pure gasoline with your bare hands. While the gasoline was evaporating on your hands they felt cold. Today if you get gasoline on your hands they feel "soapy" as the gasoline dries. That is your skin dissolving from the alkali, and causing the "slippery" feeling. I quit working in refineries when they started the alki-units, It was just to dangerous to work around pure alkali. So if Alkali is problem one. Alcohol is problem two. Alcohol will absorb water, either from getting it in the gasoline or from the air. Now you have water in suspension of the gasoline mixture and it is causing corrosion inside our fuel system. It is worse on aluminum parts than steel parts. The water usually will start electrolosis of the aluminum parts. That is the white corrosion (white rust) you see in old carbs. As long as you are driving and adding new gasoline regularly the alcohol usually causes no problems. Its when it sits any length of time that the corrosion starts. It does not need to sit long. A few weeks is enough for corrosion to start. The only good way to minimize the problems is to drive the car regulary, and drain the gasoline when stored. As to the problem of Alkali and cork, rubber, ect. Anything you can change to neoprene or brass will survive. There are also some synthetic gaskets that are OK. It looks like the problems are here to stay, and alcohol free gasoline is getting harder to find. :(

User avatar

Susanne
Posts: 175
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:06 pm
First Name: Susanne
Last Name: Rohner
Location: Northeastern California
MTFCA Number: 49765
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 1999
Contact:

Re: Let's talk gasoline

Post by Susanne » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:36 pm

This is all pretty interesting...

When the T engine was designed it ran on a fairly good standard of a variety of flammable, evaporatable liquids, from Gasoline to Alcohol to coal oil - or in other words, whatever the local guy could get. Also, Gasoline was refined a bit different when the T first came out (lets say for giggles 08-12) and the "bulk production low octane stuff towards the end of the run (the Vaporizer era)... the whole reason the vaporizer was necessary was the fuel was of declining to such poor quality it needed the exhaust manifold heat just to get it to burn...

So your car was designed and ran off many "grades" of gasoline, from the truly hot and pure stuff of the early teens, through the cracked and stretched soup of the 20's. I run 93 octane alcohol free (expensive soda pop!!) because it's what seems to run best in *my* car... BUT as with everything Ford YMMV.

Eventually I want to do a comparison between the early (1911) head I have on my car now (which has a smaller CC than the late 1915 originally on the motor) and the Rajo sitting patiently it's turn under the hood. But I also want to make sure I have *really* good brakes before I do that, too! :shock:

OK, saying all that... what got my interest here was the talk about filters and clogging junk. It may not make too much difference on an NH or even a 3 screw, but I will tell you that on my aftermarket Winfield, with its very effective jetting system (downright modernish), running without a filter is asking for trouble. Sure, I probably have a little fuel starvation when the filter is clogged but it means I don't have to pull that complex device out and clean it out. (And having been spoiled by said Winfield, I don't think I'll be going back any time soon...)

Plus... how hard is it to replace fuel filters? Really? I keep 3-4 spares under the back seat in the tool kit, and have swapped them on the road more than once. Not a big deal. It beats having the rust from the sides of the big storage tank that gets pumped into your tank out of your fuel system.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic