MTFCA Forum

Hello All,

I am a newer member. I am going to be selling this engine that I am asking for info on. I stumbled upon this rebuilt engine block. I have dug through lots of wonderful posts on this forum. I was told from the previous 88yr old owner the following.

"A Model T hot redder Ron Kippling owned it. Yes, its a later block made to look old. This is what I have on it..... Yes rebuilt with I think 30 over pistons look at the top of them. It was done many years ago. I would call it a short block. With no pan? Chevrolet dippers on end of rods. More oil to splash around when together. The head is correct I think. No USA ON TOP like later years.new babbitt."

Does anyone know what era the block is?? I believe the head is 1910?? Is an original 1910 block narrower than this block or is this an EXACT size copy. Thanks for any help with info. Any idea on how much I should ask for it when I sell it??? Thanks, Andrew

With the head and rebuilt..., being a clone of a good source.., $4,000.00?

Hank

Ron Kipling (deceased) was a dear friend of mine for many years. I never saw that particular engine at Ron's shop and I pretty much knew what was in his inventory. Who & where did you get it ?

Quite difficult to determine what the block started out as and or if it's actually an early block - there's a couple "early T" guys that read this Forum - perhaps some insight will be forthcoming !

Hello Steve,

My friend bought it from Ron (prob 15 to 25 yrs ago) when he was alive. I believe Ron purchased the engine as it sits. Thanks, Andrew

Does anyone know what era T block would have originated prior to modification or if it was a reproduction cast from an original open valve T engine?? Any help. Thanks!

aajf wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:00 pm

Hello All,

I am a newer member. I am going to be selling this engine that I am asking for info on. I stumbled upon this rebuilt engine block. I have dug through lots of wonderful posts on this forum. I was told from the previous 88yr old owner the following.

"A Model T hot redder Ron Kippling owned it. Yes, its a later block made to look old. This is what I have on it..... Yes rebuilt with I think 30 over pistons look at the top of them. It was done many years ago. I would call it a short block. With no pan? Chevrolet dippers on end of rods. More oil to splash around when together. The head is correct I think. No USA ON TOP like later years.new babbitt."

Does anyone know what era the block is?? I believe the head is 1910?? Is an original 1910 block narrower than this block or is this an EXACT size copy. Thanks for any help with info. Any idea on how much I should ask for it when I sell it??? Thanks, Andrew

Looks like you have 2 things to ID. What it is and what it isn't.
First is it the block that the 88 year old described (chevy dippers and 30 over pistons)
Second lots of previous discussion on '09 -'10 blocks. In looking at several photos I did notice some appearance difference. Some explained in discussions
Third if it is a bogus block what year block would be used or is a graft - an original damaged block and a donor block. I zoomed in where the serial nuber is supposed to be (as Jeff described) and didn't see one. So another possibility lurks
comparison http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1398269234
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1446345240

Hi Steve,

There is not a number in the location like I have seen on other early Blocks. Did anyone ever take later blocks and cut and weld to expose the valves to make the block look like any early open valve egine?

Frank,
Thanks for the link. Great info!!!!

If Memory serves me correctly, Ron had that motor in South Park at his core depot. that would have been some 35 years ago. I saw it up on one of the shelves. Damned if I can remember what he said about it. I was interested in buying it for an early wood bodied 1909 that my father had.

Ron said it was not for sale. He was not an easy guy to deal with, nice but hard to bargain with. Interesting enough, when he died, I was able to purchase most of the model T race cars from his estate. That was quite a day 9 T's race cars and regular t's all loaded with speed equipment. The 2 prizes were the Galavin twin cam and the famous Riverside Special dual overhead cam Frontenac original race car on the 1925 TT truck.

frontyboy

The pictures aren't clear enough, or show the right areas, to be certain of much. It does appear to be a pre 1919 block, modified to pass as a late 1910 or early 1911 open valve block. The "serial number boss" isn't shaped properly to be an original open valve block. It looks like the later no generator block has had the corner web cut away to appear to be the serial number boss. However, the real open valve blocks had a more straight and square embossment than this one has.
In addition, the mold patterns on earliest blocks were done differently than the ones only a couple years later. I see no signs of the early mold parting lines on the side of the block. Also, certain pattern and mold numbers common on the earliest blocks are missing.
It looks like whoever did the modifications did a nice job of it. A lot of grinding is required around the valve area, as well as a bit around the water inlet on the other side. I think I see some rough areas near the back of the valves, but otherwise it looks fairly good in the photos.

Inside the crank area are a couple details that can narrow down the vintage of the block. The size and number of reinforcing ribs on the rear main bearing web changed about 1912. And there are two "bumps inside the crankcase, one on the front half, and one on the rear half. These were used by the factory to get the first set of the block for machining. Late in 1913, these changed from half round to square in shape.
Also in 1913, the core plugs below where the manifolds are mounted, changed from pipe thread type to welch plugs (thin steel pressed into place then dimpled with a hammer to lock them).
It is fairly easy to determine a block is before or after the 1913 to 1914 changes. There are a number of minor variations in blocks from 1914 up until the last of the non-generator blocks in early 1919. However most of those are fairly easy to erase or alter to an earlier style.

The 13 blocks where the ones most people used, the early 13 blocks have the lip at the back top of the block, also the early 13 blocks did not say Made in USA and the two 3/16 holes where not drilled in the valve chambers to drain the oil. The 5/8 two casting sprews on the top side of the block was gone at the end of 12 blocks. I knew a guy that use to make these blocks out of later ones, he had told me all the grinding to do it, some may remember him Bill out of Sidney Ohio.

The head is a later low head with USA ground off, the FORD script is wrong for a 9-12 head also at the center bolt there should be some dating there. Just trying to help you know what you have.

Wayne and Joe,

Thank you VERY much!!!! All info if really appreciated. Thanks!!! Andrew

About 30+ years ago, Herschel Payne of the Space City T's had this engine for sale at the old Pate swap meet. I'm not sure about the year or authenticity, so maybe some of our experts will chime in.

I was told by a friend that my block seen in the first many pics of this post is a 1912 due to the flat screw in style frost plugs on the block. Does that sound correct??? Any help appreciated=)

The encyclopedia list the 1/2" pipe plugs changed in dec 1913, FYI they are not a freeze plug but part of the casing process to fill and remove the casing sand.

A 12 block would have two 5/8 round casting marks on the water chamber side of block.

Thank you sooo much for all this wealth of knowledge. I really appreciate it! Andrew