MTFCA Forum

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:02 pm**

Hi guys, I inherited a 1916 Ford Model T touring from my great grandpa and I've been fixing it over the past few months and am yet to get the thing started. The car may have been sitting for 50+ years. I have a battery hooked up and my coil boxes are buzzing and spark plugs are sparking. I've confirmed gas is to getting to the carburetor and have cleaned the gas line and carburetor. I've tried starting the car several times and haven't felt any pop yet. I tried pouring a tablespoon of gas into each cylinder and nothing happened. I tried spraying brake cleaner into one cylinder and didn't hear any pop but did feel a little kickback for the first time. I then tried spraying each cylinder with brake cleaner and nothing happened. I can hear air being suctioned when I turn the crank.

I'm out of ideas as to what to do next. Coils are buzzing, sparks are sparking, and I've placed fluid into the cylinders... Anyone have any ideas why it's not starting or where I should start looking next?

Thanks,
Taylor

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:19 pm**

Seeing the plugs spark laid out on top of the engine doesn't tell you if they work under compression. Without a plug tester you really don't know. Your plugs are probably OK, but not knowing for sure I would blow about $12 on a set of Autolite 3095 from the local parts store so you know you have good plugs, at least for a year or so.

How's your ignition timing? Again, that may not be your problem, but it needs to be set correctly anyway.
https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG97.html

Check this list and see if there's anything you haven't done.
https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG93.html

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:21 pm**

Is there adequate compression? When you crank the motor you should hit 4 spots with equal moderate to heavy resistance.
Timing. Set the crank pully pin 15 degrees past horizontal. with the timer set @ full retard a coil should have just started buzzing. Check with the timer rod disconnected. Rotate the timer back more retard. Rotate until you hear the buzz. This is where the timer should be for correct timing. The rod may need some bending to get the spark start time properly set.

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:36 pm**

Hi Taylor - welcome and congrats for your efforts to resurrect great-grandpa's car.

Model T's are quite simple, which makes it even more perplexing when they don't want to start. Couple of things:

1.) What kind of timer are you using? Is there any chance you have the timing 180° off?

2.) What kind of carburetor? Has it been rebuilt lately? Have you opened up the needle valve slightly so fuel is being atomized? Open is counter-clockwise.

3.) What kind of spark plugs? Bad plugs may not show up until under compression.

There is a guy in Salt Lake City who might be able to direct you to someone who could help you with your Model T.
Contact Hugh Coltharp
H-C Garage
Email hcgarage@comcast.net
Phone 801-557-9485

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:24 pm**

Seeing a spark plug spar is not good enough if you cannot see the piston has reached the top and started down about 1/8th to 3/16th inch when that spark happens.

The last person I helped with this problem had the spark plug wires reversed from the timer wires.

Assuming your car is a normal Left Hand Drive version.

#1 spark plug wire should go to the top coil box terminal on the passenger side.

#2 goes next then #3 and then #4 on the driver's side.

Looking at the timer from the front, the top passenger side terminal wire has to go to the #1 coil.

The bottom passenger side terminal wire has to go to the #2 coil.

The top driver side terminal wire has to go to the #3 coil.

The bottom driver side terminal wire has to go to the #4 coil.

some of the plastic or bakelight timers were labeled with 3 and 4 reversed which caused a lot of people grief.

Move the Spark Lever all the way up, turn the ignition switch to Bat, then slowly hand crank the engine.

Remove # 1 sparkplug and peak in the hole with a pen light to observer the piston position when the engine is slowly hand cranked over until #1 sparks oryou hear the coil buzz.

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:31 pm**

The other problem is the piston may not have enough compression to suck in any fuel.

If you added some gas with no affect, you could try some starter fluid.

Sometimes you have to add a little oil to coat the cylinder walls and improve the intake suction.

I had a 1950 Ford with an engine so tired, I had to add a little oil to two cylinders to get it started if it sat for 6 weeks.

Then it would start, run faster and start running on all cylinders.

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:34 pm**

Timing 180 off. good point.
Early cams have the timing pin hole a thru hole. Timer pin could be off 180 in that case. Later cams timer pin holes do not go all the way thru.
pull the timer & check or get #1 on compression & see if #1 coil is buzzing.

I had encountered this same scenario on a friends TT truck. It had an early cam. Reset timer brush 180 & viola.

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:31 pm**

Appreciate the responses thus far:

@steve Jeff - I bought brand new sparks, any reason I should be suspicious given they are brand new
- I took apart timer and placed it back on and there does seem to be timing issues because I one full crank seems to only hit 3 sparks - I've confirmed all 4 fire but for some reason about 1 1/2 crank turns ends up hitting all 4 sparks. I know this needs to be changed but wouldn't I atleast see some firing?
- thank you for the resources I will look over them

@speedytinc - do you have a resource with pictures for what your describing? My little brain can't envision what you're suggesting..

@Oldav8tor - Original 1916 Timer
- Original 1916 carburetor - and yes I have turned it 1 1/2 turns and have tried opening more as well
- brand new spark plugs from Snyders
- Thank you for the SLC contact!!! I will definitely call him!!

@J1MGOLDEN - I've confirmed that my sparks are firing in the proper order 1-2-4-3. What your describing though is making sure the firing is in fact happening when the piston is the right position?

I've confirmed

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:35 pm**

Car sitting for 50 years.... make sure there aren't any values sticking open.

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:49 pm**

The Newb wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:31 pm
Appreciate the responses thus far:

@steve Jeff - I bought brand new sparks, any reason I should be suspicious given they are brand new
- I took apart timer and placed it back on and there does seem to be timing issues because I one full crank seems to only hit 3 sparks - I've confirmed all 4 fire but for some reason about 1 1/2 crank turns ends up hitting all 4 sparks. I know this needs to be changed but wouldn't I atleast see some firing?
- thank you for the resources I will look over them

@speedytinc - do you have a resource with pictures for what your describing? My little brain can't envision what you're suggesting..

@Oldav8tor - Original 1916 Timer
- Original 1916 carburetor - and yes I have turned it 1 1/2 turns and have tried opening more as well
- brand new spark plugs from Snyders
- Thank you for the SLC contact!!! I will definitely call him!!

@J1MGOLDEN - I've confirmed that my sparks are firing in the proper order 1-2-4-3. What your describing though is making sure the firing is in fact happening when the piston is the right position?

I've confirmed

The T1 manual should have a pix of this.
Remove the timer. see the brush held on with a 3/4" nut, cupped washer & small nail head. Rotate the crank to get the pin head up. Remove all this. Pull out the short pin (looks like a nail) If the hole that pin goes into is a thru hole, the timer brush can be installed 180 off. Turn the crank 1 turn to turn the cam 180 to reinstall the pin & the rest of the hdw.

The other way to test is to put your thumb on #1 plug hole, crank till compression is felt. Get crank pin horizontal. (thats tdc) 15 degrees past it should be in position to fire the coil. Turn on the ignition. #1 coil should be firing. If #4 is buzzing, its 180 off time. This assumes your timer wires are in their correct positions.

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:00 pm**

...there does seem to be timing issues because I one full crank seems to only hit 3 sparks - I've confirmed all 4 fire but for some reason about 1 1/2 crank turns ends up hitting all 4 sparks.

It takes 2 revolutions of the engine to fire all 4 coils. The camshaft, (which the timer runs off of), turns 1/2 revolution for each full revolution of the crankshaft.

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:04 pm**

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:00 pm
...there does seem to be timing issues because I one full crank seems to only hit 3 sparks - I've confirmed all 4 fire but for some reason about 1 1/2 crank turns ends up hitting all 4 sparks.

It takes 2 revolutions of the engine to fire all 4 coils. The camshaft, (which the timer runs off of), turns 1/2 revolution for each full revolution of the crankshaft.

Oh that's good to know - I was told it was 1/4 turn for each firing and that it only took one rotation to hit all 4. That actually bodes better because it might be taking me about 2 turns. 3 of the pins take about 1/2 turn but the 4th only hits for about 1/16 of a turn.

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:21 pm**

It should take EXACTLY 1/2 turn to fire a plug, then EXACTLY 1/2 turn to fire the next...and so on.

any extra or "badly off" sparks are spurious and you are somehow shorting to ground (operating) one or more plugs at the wrong time...if this is the case, then you may well have one wire at the timer grounding to a bolt in the pan...the bolt directly below the timer should be "threads down" while all the others are "up"...this makes sure no wires ground to the motor and cause that plug to fire at the wrong time.

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:24 pm**

speedytinc wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:49 pm

The Newb wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:31 pm
Appreciate the responses thus far:

@steve Jeff - I bought brand new sparks, any reason I should be suspicious given they are brand new
- I took apart timer and placed it back on and there does seem to be timing issues because I one full crank seems to only hit 3 sparks - I've confirmed all 4 fire but for some reason about 1 1/2 crank turns ends up hitting all 4 sparks. I know this needs to be changed but wouldn't I atleast see some firing?
- thank you for the resources I will look over them

@speedytinc - do you have a resource with pictures for what your describing? My little brain can't envision what you're suggesting..

@Oldav8tor - Original 1916 Timer
- Original 1916 carburetor - and yes I have turned it 1 1/2 turns and have tried opening more as well
- brand new spark plugs from Snyders
- Thank you for the SLC contact!!! I will definitely call him!!

@J1MGOLDEN - I've confirmed that my sparks are firing in the proper order 1-2-4-3. What your describing though is making sure the firing is in fact happening when the piston is the right position?

I've confirmed
The T1 manual should have a pix of this.
Remove the timer. see the brush held on with a 3/4" nut, cupped washer & small nail head. Rotate the crank to get the pin head up. Remove all this. Pull out the short pin (looks like a nail) If the hole that pin goes into is a thru hole, the timer brush can be installed 180 off. Turn the crank 1 turn to turn the cam 180 to reinstall the pin & the rest of the hdw.

The other way to test is to put your thumb on #1 plug hole, crank till compression is felt. Get crank pin horizontal. (thats tdc) 15 degrees past it should be in position to fire the coil. Turn on the ignition. #1 coil should be firing. If #4 is buzzing, its 180 off time. This assumes your timer wires are in their correct positions.

I just performed your second suggestion and #1 fired so it looks like it's not 180 off.

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:54 pm**

Look at what Scott just said. and check the rest of the timer wire connections, to make sure they clear everything. You might also want to check the timer to make sure it doesn't have an internal short on one of the contacts. It seems like this is a timer issue since even a real tired T engine will usually kick if it has fuel and correct spark and given your description of it firing at an odd spot in rotation.

Van

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:20 pm**

as an additional heads up, if you do get it to fire, I sure would not run it very long after 50 years of sitting. Shut it down, pull the head and look at the cylinders and also the inspection pan and look at the crank and rod bearings. At least clean them up and lube them before running too long, you don't want to damage thing, when a little bit of cleaning will go a long ways. Great project

Van

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:29 pm**

a too-small, non-stock or modified brass shield behind the roller/flapper can cause all sorts of timing havoc, too, if it can flop around

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:09 pm**

Scott, had never thought about that. It seems more often than not, timer issues cause problems, guess that was why there were so many after market solutions, and why Ford tried so many variables. I think at this point if I were Taylor I would just get a new timer and shield and give it a whirl. Some where I do have a good 15 cast timer that would be his for the asking, but just looked for it for a museum in CA and for the life of me can't find it, too many parts, not enough cars.

Van

Posted: **Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:46 am**

The best thing to do with that brass Timer disk is to remove it and insert a modern OIL seal.

It will often lean forward and provide extra sparks at the wrong time.

I had a similar problem with the pin out of the camshaft and the roller loose, so it just wobbled back and forth and only 2 and 4 ever got any sparks and never at the right time.

Years ago, I was having a similar problem and a wise old gent in Maine told me I not only had to be sure the spark happened at the right time, I also had to be sure only one spark plug was getting a spark at that time.

I had painted that coil box wood with a nice coat of black paint that was made black with carbon.

Carbon conducts electricity.

My T ran OK on Bat, but when I switched to the hotter Mag sparks they were shared with each other and I got all kinds of pops and backfires.

So, if 2 was sparking, it shared a few sparks with 1 and 3, etc.

A new wood piece with about 12 coats of polyurethane made a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE.

Posted: **Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:36 am**

I took off the timer, cleaned it again, and have it sitting well now. I'm no longer getting any odd spark timing. Each are firing at half a turn. Inspected carburetor again and everything looks good. Confirmed firing order is good again and that spark is hitting all spark plugs. Sprayed engine starter fluid in and still nothing. No pop at all. Any other ideas??? Next step I think I'll open the valve cover and make sure all pistons are moving properly.

Posted: **Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:45 am**

Verify that timing is 15 degrees ATDC
Verify that plug firing is at the correct cylinder (on compression)...this will ensure that the remote possibility of the timer contact being 180 off is not biting you
with full choke crank at least 2-3 compressions and then remove plugs to smell for gas...do not be so sure your carb/intake is working correctly...cranking as much as you have been, there should be fuel running out of the carb...

Posted: **Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:02 pm**

Contact Russ Potter and get a rebuilt Holley NH. Send your old carb to him for rebuilding. Sounds like it may be a gummed up and blocked main jet or vent.
Terry

Posted: **Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:36 pm**

You've been getting some good advice.

I'm a newb myself but have learned a lot the last 4 years thru experience and listening to the guys on this forum. My car had been sitting for 30 years or so before I got it. Recently I've been helping a friend bring a '22 Model T back to life that sat for 10+ years and can tell you what helped both him and me.
Coils - sent them to Ron Patterson for rebuild and adjustment.
Carb - Had it rebuilt by Russ Potter (Holley G). My friend had load of trouble until he replaced his original kingston carb with a rebuilt NH from Russ Potter. We thought we went thru everything on the Kingston but could never get it to run good. We bolted on the NH and zoom, off we went.
Timer - Installed new New Day timers from Tip Top Timers of Spokane. They also make new Andersons. Check timing.
Wiring /Electrical - checked available diagrams to insure plug wires and timer wiring was correct. Rebuilt coil box and switch.
Engine - check compression - hard to do without a starter.

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1916 Model T Trouble Shooting

1916 Model T Trouble Shooting

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