WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET (BELT DRIVE GEN.)

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Stephen1915
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WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET (BELT DRIVE GEN.)

Post by Stephen1915 » Mon Apr 04, 2022 6:32 pm

Howdy guys,

I’m in need of a RHD Canadian Generator and Mounting Bracket, OR THE AUSTRALIAN VERSION?? Of this setup (see attached photos) or any information on someone that may have, or know where to get these parts.

Thanks!

Call/Text: 314-287-1901

Email: stephensmail2001@gmail.com
3FCC7943-8F7E-45B5-93D8-76BACCC63223.jpeg
3FCC7943-8F7E-45B5-93D8-76BACCC63223.jpeg (71.17 KiB) Viewed 2748 times
Attachments
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Last edited by Stephen1915 on Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:58 am, edited 5 times in total.


Allan
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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET

Post by Allan » Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:01 pm

Stephen, I was not aware that there was a difference between US and Canadian brackets. Please explain for me. I could not find the photos on your post. I have the bits, but no point in sending them if they are the same.

Allan from down under.


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Stephen1915
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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET

Post by Stephen1915 » Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:21 pm

Allan wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:01 pm
Stephen, I was not aware that there was a difference between US and Canadian brackets. Please explain for me. I could not find the photos on your post. I have the bits, but no point in sending them if they are the same.

Allan from down under.
Howdy Allen I have revised the wanted ad. You can contact me via phone or email.


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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET

Post by Kerry » Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:23 pm

Allan
The RHD Canadian T had it's own mounting front cover and genny for a very sort time in 1919. Will not be an easy find.


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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET

Post by Allan » Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:44 pm

Frank, that's what happens when poster omit the year of the parts they are looking for. I have offered the fan and pulley which go with that set-up.

Allan from down under.


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Stephen1915
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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET

Post by Stephen1915 » Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:49 pm

Allan, I did not intentionally leave out the year of usage as I myself am not well versed in the years used myself. I am quite interested in those parts you have, is there a way I can contact you? Thanks! Stephen.


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Stephen1915
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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET

Post by Stephen1915 » Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:54 am

Bump to the top


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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET (BELT DRIVE GEN.)

Post by Les Schubert » Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:57 pm

So believe that Kerry nailed it. A early 19 transition item.

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Henry K. Lee
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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET (BELT DRIVE GEN.)

Post by Henry K. Lee » Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:10 pm

Get ready to dump some money for originals. From my understanding, they were weak up at the top section.

Hank

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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET (BELT DRIVE GEN.)

Post by A Whiteman » Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:04 pm

For reference, here is an original, recently restored 1919 installation. Sorry the picture is not the best, but it is, I believe, the set up you are looking for.
The 1919 model is very rare down here, but a few parts still float around.
P1014636 (Custom).JPG


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Stephen1915
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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET (BELT DRIVE GEN.)

Post by Stephen1915 » Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:02 pm

Thank you for the picture!


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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET (BELT DRIVE GEN.)

Post by Luxford » Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:11 am

Steven, I presume that you intend using one of thee brackets to power a generator for a Model T with a early block which does not have provision for the generator on the right side??
The original intension of the bracket was for Ford Canada to clear the backlog of non generator blocks they had in storage which needed to be disposed of, but as buyers were now purchasing starter equipped cars they were going to be wasted.
Australia had resisted the plan to send LHD T's instead of RHD when Henry tried to reduce costs by only supplying LHD ( Britain were sent LHD by force) and that created a problem so Canada decided to inflict a bit of "payback" by shifting all the non generator blocks to Australia.
They began sending motors with the starter hogshead (with the starter holes blacked off) in August 1919 along with a note saying the starter version would be available in early 1920 when they had solved the problem with the steering column being in the way. A lie, that had already been addressed.
The generator bracket arrived about April 1920 and it took just less than 8 months to clear the old blocks. So the brackets were 1920.
They don't appear to be weak as claimed by some, but are often broken, this is probably because the generator for these brackets is a larger heavier generator than the normal one. The shaft is longer to allow the pulley to be attached and to line up the belt with the crank pulley.
Although the extra weight may have caused some to break if they received a severe shock whilst being driven, the most likely reason for failure is when the motor is being removed and with the generator in place they are dropped somehow resulting in the bracket failing or similar mishandling.
Repo brackets made of aluminium work fine so the design appears to have been adequate. Possibly if the belt was tightened to much that may have loaded the bracket beyond it's ability but the idler and fan pulleys having bushes would have failed quickly if this was done.
All up the belt drive was a poor answer, the generator being of extra capacity helped the charging rate but also put load on the belt which would slip, so tightening the belt was a problem but so was a slipping belt.
The gearing of the pulleys was lower than the gear driven version so the generator was slower than that of the gear drive version. All up not a good addition.
Ford Canada once the belt drive was no longer being produced provided instructions on how the change the generator shaft so it could be used with the normal front timing cover, this entailed cutting off the long shaft about 1/2" approx and cutting a keyway for the small generator gear to be attached. So many brackets probably were then thrown away. This probably accounts for so many generators either lost or not recognized later.

As has been stated before getting an original may be difficult, costly or no possible as the few left are often kept in collections as a talking point, one suggestion is to make a casting pattern using a normal cover with the generator arm grafted on and cast a new one or just a bracket to mount the generator on the left side Ala lar air conditioner compressor.
Several belt drive generators are now on Model Ts' that have been restored and those with the necessary abilities have engineered answers to fix its faults ( or minimize them) Here is one sensible answer.
Attachments
image.jpg


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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET (BELT DRIVE GEN.)

Post by Kerry » Wed Apr 06, 2022 4:30 am

Peter. I'm not so sure of 1920, a publication by Ford "Ford the universal car" titled "Starting and lighting systems 1919"
shows the left bolt on generator and fitted starter.


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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET (BELT DRIVE GEN.)

Post by Luxford » Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:36 am

Hi Frank,
I don't think I am familiar with the Ford publication you mentioned "Ford the Universal Car" 1919 that shows the left bolt on Generator which seems unusual as I have been documenting the details of the bracket since it was bought to everyone's attention in 1976 when F Olsen from Mt Eliza Victoria sent a letter to Bruce McCalley which appeared in the Vintage Ford magazine. A second publication besides the Ford Canada Owners Manual of August 1920 showing the set up and dated in 1919 would be interesting for us all.
Can you do a scan to show us what the book has? or is it the same drawing/drawings as the normal ones which I will attach at the end?
Also this bracket appears to have only come to Australia, New Zealand also now seems to have a few but that may be due to them being purchased in Australia recently. Adrian can you throw some light on that also?
I have just done a check on my records and I got it wrong on the date, the the generator blocks were sent with the Hogshead for the starter on the 15th October 1919. The timing cover brackets for the RHD generator and details for fitment were to be available in a Ford Canada Service Bulletin ( not seen one of those either ??) and were to be ready and to be sent in early1920 ( after the end of January)
The Letter to the Australian distributors which I have a copy of is dated December 1919 so possibly the motors were still in transit, they were being informed that Ford Canada was working on a RHD starter/generator system, before that they were told no LHD no Fords. A note attached to the 1920 Ford Owners Manual mentions the Australian starter system being different.
As the engine blocks were now including the generator alterations to allow for the camshaft gear drive generator in October 1919 the details about it would have been available for printing of the set up in 1919 but as they were not being sent till 1920 I think 1920 has to be the date. ( only my opinion)
Attachments
belt drive gene 021.jpg
low res 01.JPG
448322.jpg


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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET (BELT DRIVE GEN.)

Post by Luxford » Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:59 am

OOP's One shouldn't sit down and type when its way past ones bedtime.
Correction- The engine blocks sent on 15th Oct 1919 were the excess non generator blocks which had been fitted with the new RHD hogshead and starter adaption added.
So when the motors were put into the assembled chassis ( the Fords were sent in knocked down form ) if someone wanted to pay extra for the new starter/generator system on their new Ford all that was needed was use the belt drive kit and add a starter motor and the other needed bits.( I assume the flywheel had the ring gear also in place)


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Stephen1915
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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET (BELT DRIVE GEN.)

Post by Stephen1915 » Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:36 am

Luxford, your knowledge on these is incredible and much appreciated, thank you for taking the time to post. I have had a few people from New Zealand contact me to tell me of some setups they have they are willing to part with. As for getting one, I would like to have a few casted and machined. I would like to use this setup on my car. If you run across one or parts please contact me! Thank you for the information, I can go about the search more intelligently!

-Stephen

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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET (BELT DRIVE GEN.)

Post by A Whiteman » Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:40 am

Hi Peter, to my best knowledge the 1919 car was sold new in New Zealand with the set up. Probably part of a 'common' shipment 'down under' from 'up over' on the one ship maybe.
The current owner visits here time to time, maybe he will add some more information.
Cheers
Adrian


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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET (BELT DRIVE GEN.)

Post by Kerry » Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:08 am

It seems like trying to date is a bit like what date did Canada start casting "MADE IN CANADA" on the blocks, I did find in Trove, an article in the Bulletin (QLD) dated 27/Feb/1919, "1919 Ford car self starter" Trove isn't easy to navigate these days so give up on trying to find any ads that might mention the starter-generator-battery etc.


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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET (BELT DRIVE GEN.)

Post by Luxford » Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:09 am

Hi Andrew,
Thanks for replying, if you could contact the owner and ask what history he has that would be great. Any extra evidence will add to the story of the belt drive bracket would be of interest and should be documented. ( I will contact you off line tomorrow)

Kerry, I presume you are refering to the article appearing in several newspapers in February 1919 which speculated that the Ford would have the new starting system included at no cost.
Did you also find the add which denounced that announcement as being false, as the system would only be fitted to enclosed Fords and they were not to be sold in Australia.
You forgot to mention if the Ford book you talked about before had the same or different illustrations as the ones above.
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1919 Ford cars self start.JPG
1919 sedan No Go ad_edited-1.jpg


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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET (BELT DRIVE GEN.)

Post by Woody23 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:26 pm

Hello Gents,

I am helping troubleshoot a belt driven generator and wondering if anyone knows if the internal wiring would be exactly the same as a standard generator. The belt driven generator will be spinning the opposite direction of the gear driven generator.

I have changed polarity on other cars over the years but just flashed the field coils no wiring changes. I ask because I found the 3rd brush and ground brush swapped on the belt generator. But it doesn’t work so this could be the issue just never seen one of these before.

Anyone ever have a belt driven generator open or have an documentation?

Thanks

David


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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET (BELT DRIVE GEN.)

Post by Kerry » Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:53 am

David, think about it, the belt driven one turns clock wise with the crank and the gear driven one off the cam gear. The crank clock wise then the cam anti clockwise so generator will be clock wise so both the same.


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Re: WANTED: CANADIAN/AUSTRALIAN? RHD GENERATOR MOUNTING BRACKET (BELT DRIVE GEN.)

Post by Woody23 » Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:17 am

You’re right, I was not including the cam gear…so the issue with generator is it was wired wrong…

Thanks for the feedback. I put some arrows on the photo for a visual. Generator gear in green.

Cheers!

David
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AC897823-E013-4FDF-B09C-5BAC70176C0A.jpeg

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