MTFCA Forum

A week ago I started a thread asking about finding the "Correct" part vs a part that just "Fits". As always the people on this forum amazed me with their knowledge and willingness to help. The problem is that each bit of new knowledge seems to create a series of new questions....
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I have a early 1914 Touring (October 1913) and one of the informational sites I was referred to was part of the Model T club website at https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1914.htm
Under the reference of COLORS: All cars were painted black, with black fenders. (Factory cost books indicate that touring bodies were painted blue until October, 1914.) I was also send some other information stating that some early 1914 cars had "Midnight Blue wheels with striping".
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So...it seems that a very early 1914 Touring car probably came from the factory painted Midnight Blue with blue wheels and pinstriping. Am I reading all of this correctly??
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Thank you...

Still a debated topic. MOST era information goes against that. Evidence indicates that many if not most 1913 style cars were painted black, not the blue that early records indicted. That would seem to indicate that all or nearly ALL 1914s were all black.

On the other hand, there are records indicting that the factory was still using blue paint even beyond 1915. Some historians, and restorers of certain cars, believe that SOME couplets and early center-door sedans may have been painted blue from the factory. I myself have seen a couple couplets remains showing what appeared to be original paint , being blue. And I have seen photos of one 1915 center-door sedan also showing what appeared to be original blue. Those cars alone could account for the factory still using blue paint that late. So still unlikely that touring cars were being generally painted blue.
Ford did at times paint fleet sales special colors. Not well recorded however who actually did the painting?

And, to muddy the waters further, I have have an early 1914 front door that appears to be mostly original paint. Badly weathered blue. So?
However to be considered correct, your early 1914 should be all black. Mostly because even most late 1913s were originally.

The historical record does clarify certain aspects of the finishing methods employed during this era. The most important fact to recognize is that ford only finished around 10% of their bodies during 1914-15. This is spelled it in detail in the Arnold and Ferote book “ Ford methods and the Ford shops”. Clearly the ford conveyor system was not equipped to process the enclosed car bodies of this era so those were finished by outside concerns along with most of their open car bodies. The finishing firms were actually noted on the various body tags that were attached to the bodies. This fact allows for a transition period for the colors used that may have begun at the ford factory and extended to the outside finishing companies later on. While historical photos of new ford cars offer little help with determining color they do clearly indicate that body striping continued well into 1913 and wheel striping continued into the 1914 style body era which began in the later part of 1913. The MTFCI guidelines call out the 1913 cars as blue and the 1914 models as black. This is probably the best practical definition that we can use going forward. The reality of the “1000 cars per day” era is likely much less concrete.

I realize much research through the past sixty years has meticulously documented production changes as new information has come to light, and the club judging guidelines reflect this. Just to muddy the water a bit, when I got my first T sixty years ago, I read an opinion based on "research" that stated wheels were painted blue into the 1920 production year. No distinction was made between non-demountables vs. demountable. It's interesting to see some equivocation now re: the "1914=all black" opinion.

For my part, I just wish everyone would paint their cars bright red, the way Henry Ford intended. "You can have any color you want so long as it's red. "

I agree Rich - they look the best in Red !

Red body AND natural wheels? You are really going to HELL ! Looks great to me

According to a December 1913 Ford factory letter (McCalley, "Model T Ford" 555-556) the early 1914 Fords were painted as follows:

Chassis and fenders were painted black.
Bodies and wheels were painted blue, a very dark blue-black color.
Wheels were striped in "Fine French Gray."

The bodies had primer and filler layers followed by three coats of color: one coat of F-113 "blue ground" followed by two coats F-115 "body spraying blue color varnish." The wheels had one coat F-108 black surfacer and one coat of F-109 "blue color varnish."

Fenders, frame and axles were finished with various forms of black Japan and black brushing.

The hood is a question. The hood and rear axle have F-103 "first coat blue dipping," but while the rear axle gets a second coat of F-104 "quick drying black," no second coat is listed for the hood. It is uncertain whether the hood was left as is, or whether a second coat was given. All the other significant elements have at least two coats of color, making it exceptional for the hood to be left with one coat. It's possible that the hood was accidentally left out and would have had a second coat, presumably of F-105 black, but this is based on stylistic and systematic consistencies.

One element in support of a black hood would be ease in production, allowing any body to fit any chassis. Another element is found in prevailing style trends among automakers in 1914, with black hoods and fenders common among many manufacturers.

Contextually, December 1913 is just at the moment Ford is ramping into serious mass-production, so we still have older stylistic elements like blue that have not yet been eliminated. Just when it goes to all black is uncertain, although early calendar 1914 is a good choice for open cars. Closed cars were very likely to have kept color on the bodies longer than open cars.

A March 1917 Ford factory letter states "As we expect to paint all bodies black by April 15 [1917], we ask that you [branches] kindly give us an inventory of all the F-113 (blue body paint) you now have on hand, and that you do not requisition any more of the material beyond your needs to April 15th."

Here is a February 1915 notice regarding an overall black ford runabout with a July 6, 1914 engine number. The description is very detailed, so it's clear it was an overall black car. This suggests that Ford adopted all black (for open cars at least) sometime in early calendar 1914.

For an October 1913 touring, black with a blue body and blue wheels striped gray would be very fair. The blue is very dark, described as "blue-black" in comments from early 1913, so the contrast with black is subtle.

I think a lot of people err on the side of all-black, but the data does support blue, at least through late calendar 1913 and probably into early 1914.

Wow, the information found by Mr. Howard looks interesting....I guess I need to get a copy of the McCalley book. It sounds like it contains some very detailed information. According to the information he posted my 1914 Touring built in October of 1913 should have been dark blue with blue wheels. How do the judging standards compare to the McCalley book?
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Thank you...

bdtutton wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:16 pm

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I have a early 1914 Touring (October 1913) and one of the informational sites I was referred to was part of the Model T club website at https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1914.htm
Under the reference of COLORS: All cars were painted black, with black fenders. (Factory cost books indicate that touring bodies were painted blue until October, 1914.) I was also send some other information stating that some early 1914 cars had "Midnight Blue wheels with striping".
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First things first...
You need to validate the year of your Model T. As stated in the Model T Encyclopedia "The engine number was also the serial number of the car. Engines were numbered when they were completed, and for the most part went into a chassis within a day or so. However, some engines were assembled and numbered at branch assembly plants. Highland Park would ship a block of engine-number records to an assembly plant and these engines might be made weeks or months afterwards. Consequently, engine numbers can only be used to date the "engine" NOT the car." In addition the engine could have been replaced in the past 100 years. Secondly: Titles are not always correct, and some various methods may have been used to choose a year of manufacture. SO... its best to include some photos for the experts to determine the year of manufacture as well as the model year.

The are many shades of "blue" and the proper term is "Midnight Blue" as noted in the the printed articles, one is an announcement of the introduction of a new model , likely correct. The other can be considered hearsay evidence since "Midnight Blue" is very dark and may have the reference to "black" was chosen over "blue" to the reporter.

Lastly, once your T has been properly identified to a Model Year AND you plan on showing it then you would need to follow the MTFCI guidelines that call for 1913 cars as Midnight Blue(?) and the 1914 models as Midnight Black(?).

The MTFCI judging standards call for 1914 cars to have "Body and wheels painted black. Some early cars had Midnight Blue wheels with striping."

I think the Ford letter cited in Bruce's book on pp 555-556 supports amending this to something like "Early 1914 model cars had dark blue bodies and wheels. The wheels were striped along the spokes and fellows with French gray." It's similar to the 1913 specs as Frank points out.

A good rule of thumb might be, "blue bodies and wheels through calendar 1913, black overall by early calendar 1914."

Is there a period use of the term "midnight blue?" (Edit: in 1913-1916 "midnight blue" is mostly used to describe clothing, coats, etc. But it was also used in a 1916 Jeffrey ad, so there is a period example.

Here's a good example of dark blue with black fenders from a 1914 Overland advertisement. Also an Oldsmobile with black fenders.

My unrestored 1914, no. 567657, had original paint on three of its wheels and they were very dark, almost black blue. The fourth wheel was a replacement steel felloe type and it was black. Everything else on the car was black.

I had two unrestored 1922 centerdoors in totally original paint, both bodies were very dark blue, easily "blue black", but they were undeniably blue, not black. I polished areas of sound paint and examined it with a portable color viewer and it was conclusive. The rest of both cars was black except the accessory Motor Wheel wheels on one, they were very dark muddy red.

Dan, that's really interesting, especially as your car is late August 1914. I had no idea that blue wheels lasted so late into the production. It aligns with the other note that blue may have been used longer than we generally think.

The 1922 center doors are even more interesting, and a little more elegant than usually thought. Were the hoods black? I'm assuming so but was just curious.

Thanks for sharing the original paint details.