MTFCA Forum

I was just wondering if anyone was using the reproduction mirrors for their acetylene headlights. I have LED lights at this time, but they don't work well because my mirrors are in bad shape and I am thinking about switching over to acetylene or halogen lights with new mirrors. If the reproduction brass mirrors coated with nickel work well I would be happy to use them, but if not I need to find some good original glass mirrors. Has anyone compared the coated brass mirrors with the original glass mirrors?
.
Thanks....

I have "silvered" metal reflectors in my gas headlights. They are not great, and while I suspect the plating is nickel, silver was used in headlights up to 1939 when sealed beams were first introduced. The earliest of those had a silver plated metal reflector, the "sealed" part was to eliminate the necessity of polishing reflectors periodically to eliminate tarnish. Silver has the highest reflective index, some 50% greater than nickel.

All that said, it's fun to note that later sealed beams employed mirror silvered glass reflectors . . . just like the mirrors found in acetylene head lamps decades before. Glass reflectors with good silvering would be superior to the reproduction metal ones, but they are very difficult to find these days. Ive been looking fir a pair for my Jno. Browns (admittedly not very hard) for six years since acquiring my current Lizzie - found a pair that aren't the right size.

Perhaps it could be possible to reproduce glass reflectors but the market for them would be tiny, and the cost fairly high, I'd think. Good luck !

Afterthought - there are modern plastic reflectors available for the Ford electric headlights that have excellent reflective properties. Perhaps they could be adapted for an LED conversion ??

Led's are directional. To have a gaslight reflect their output they need to be aimed at the reflector, not to the front. You would need multiple led's to be focused on the dish of the reflector to get any sort of output. The halogen bulb is a much better solution for directional output, albeit at greater current draw.

Allan from down under

There was an article in the HCCA gazette a while back that showed how to use modern available reflectors with LED or halogen bulbs. I learned a lot from it( since forgotten ) as to difference between the original style mangen mirror and why they will not work well with electric bulbs. Looks like a nice solution for a car you want to drive easily,

My friend installed the available reflector & Halogen bulb kit from Restoration Supply in his '13 - they are super bright but do draw major amperage - I installed the same kit in our '14 - they're crazy bright !

Would you be able to post information on the reflectors and kit part numbers used in the above photo that your friend installed?

Does anyone here know if all of the headlights used around this time were basically the same units despite the different makes? Example Juno/Brown, etc.?

thanks in advance.

Restoration Supply has a great catalog on the internet - check out "Halogen Reflector Kit" - they're available in multiple sizes with or without turn indicators.

Mark,
Not to change the OP question but you asked about headlamp size....

Ford used 6" Mangin mirrors in the supplied headlamps, John Brown, E&J and Victor.

I have John Brown 16's and they will not take a larger diameter. They are measured
across the maximum diameter as shown in the MacBeth chart below.

Fords would use the MacBeth No. 3209.

I searched for a while on the usual sites until I came up with some good mirrors and
have a pair of Lancasters on the car in their original silver. They came out of other brands
of acetylene headlamps I bought just to get the mirrors. Just be sure to have a pad behind
the mirrors and snug up the 3 mirror mounting screws (John Brown) every once in a while.

Thanks for the information. I have a set of Gray Davis lamps on my 14 that are missing the reflectors. I will also check with Restoration Supply.

We're those pads asbestos originally?

Herb,

I believe the pads were asbestos but I don't know for sure.
The lamps don't get near hot enough to require it. I have one "pad" that came off
an old lamp that looks like a donut, a bold "O" and it may be asbestos.

I use 2" exhaust wrap in three strips trimmed so you don't see it behind the mirror.
Works fine. The burner is about 2-1/2" in front of the Mangin so it doesn't get very hot.

If you don't have a pad/cushion behind the mirror, loose mount screws can let the mirror rotate
in the headlamp bucket due to vibration and wear the silver off the back of the Mangin.

The gas headlamps are designed to be air cooled and should be lit when you are ready to
drive the car. Traffic lights and so on are not a problem. The bonnets have the most heat
but they don't get as warm as the radiator on a normal drive.

Can't you just get the original mirrors re-silvered?

I was the original poster.....It would not help much to get my original mirrors re-silvered because they are pretty scratched up and there are a lot of chips in the glass. They don't look bad when you walk past the car, but they are not in good shape.
.
I just wanted to know if anyone had tried the aftermarket mirrors and how well they worked. If the response was good enough I was just going to buy some....if the response was not very well I was going to search the internet until I found someone with a good set for sale.
.
Thank you...

There was a place that polished and re-silvered those reflectors about 15 years ago
.
Evidently every glass mold the Lancaster Glass Company owned and used went right to the scrap heat or was melted down in a blast furnace.

Useful information here - I am wondering if I could 3D print new mirrors. For 100+$ a piece, there are room for innovation

Michael you’d make a lot of early cars owners happy and waving dead inventors & presidents at you.

Is it possible to 3-D print glass ??? That would be wonderful !!

I have always wondered why no one ever purchased convex glass for clock bezels and sent them out for silvering. There are companies who sell these glasses in a myriad of diameters and there are companies who restore or create mirrors...

Scott, I wonder if that would work ? I have never seen a convex clock face glass that was heavier than single strength window glass, while the lamp reflectors are heavy, over 1/4" in some sections of the profile.

Rich

I don't disagree with your measurements, but I ask myself 2 questions: am I going to burn the lights on a regular basis, and are there other glass repops available?

In my case, definitely "no" and "I don't think so"

given the present repops are nickle plated brass, I'd bet the glass would look much better, though will likely be unable to handle the heat or project light properly...still, I'd take glass over brass any day. That said, if I were to break one of my glasses, I'd be thankful that there was ANYTHING on the market to patch that void and am no way impugning the present repair alternative.

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:29 pm

I have always wondered why no one ever purchased convex glass for clock bezels and sent them out for silvering. There are companies who sell these glasses in a myriad of diameters and there are companies who restore or create mirrors...

Convex glass most likely would not have a parabolic curve, so placing the light source within a focal point might be an issue.

No, it would most definitely not have a parabolic curve, and I suspect the brass one does not, either, as I have heard numerous complaints that it does not throw light.

I do not suggest that the glass would be a "replacement" in functionality but would look a darn sight better than the plated brass and I bet in any kind of quantity would compete $$ very well with the $100+ dollar brass version

Now, for OP Bryan

send the glass out for resilvering. This isn't rocket science and used to be a common thing...though not as common now, it is still done.

Scott if you have a source for some company that could & would resilver the original mirrors that would be awesome. As stated before there use to be a person that did this about 6 years ago but that ended when the EPA wanted upgrades that made this niche vendor close their doors. At that time she charged under $100 a mirror but they had to be chip free. Seems the process could cause the the mirror to fracture if already chipped or compromised. I had 4 done and collected 20 more mirrors that would meet her criteria but that’s when I found out she closed. Sometime a few years ago someone was going to try using Pyrex to make parabolic mirrors for acetylene lights but never read anymore on the project. I want to say that it was on the forum but doing a search I couldn’t find it. Truly I’m not sure but the cost vs market + risk probably makes it prohibitive. I wish it were not the case. Perhaps some overseas contingent could produce them or resilver them but I’m clueless in seeing how to travel down that path.

John

it has been years since I had a mirror redone. At the time, so long as it was not mercury-silvered, it was no problem. I do not have a source, but after shooting my mouth off, figuratively speaking, on my last post, I did a quick search on-line and there appears to be a reasonable number of people offering the service. I'd think someone would be amenable to doing new, clean glass.

I think Craig Riker, in Ohio will re-silver mirrors. I know he does lots of nickel and brass plating. He does a great job and is very knowledgeable with Model A's and T's. Just search for him in past forum posts.
-Joshua

I bought my lathe from a fellow who was into astronomy. He was replacing it with a much sturdier and far more accurate machine so he could make precision lenses for telescopes. These had to be ground to the correct dimensions to allow the required focusing. The edges of headlight mirrors I have handled also looked to be ground, but not polished like the faces of the lens. Are the original lenses ground and polished to final dimensions before silvering? Moulded or slubbed glass may look OK but is that the finished product?

Allan from down under.

Rich P. Bingham wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:18 pm

Is it possible to 3-D print glass ??? That would be wonderful !!

No, not to my knowledge, but it is all about supporting a thin layer of silver and that could be of either side of the mirror. It may originally be behind the glass, but in a 3D printed solution it could as well be on the front side. The 3D printet object would then of course have a sightly different geometry than the original, but who cares. You would not see that when the brass band plays! Here it is useful to know that all Model T acetelyne headlamps all used 6" diameter mirrors and hopefully also have the same distance between the flame and the bottom of the mirror since then one size will fit all and have a proper parabolic cross section to focus the flame.
You can actually electrosilverplate plastic, så it could probably be made of plastic but it might also be made by metal.

Allan wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:32 am

. . . Are the original lenses ground and polished to final dimensions before silvering? Moulded or slubbed glass may look OK but is that the finished product?

Allan from down under.

The reflectors I have show a very high finish on both sides. Without knowing the original production methods, or really anything at all about polishing lenses it's impossible for me to say if the surfaces were ground and polished. I do know it's possible to mold glass with a very high finish.

Dang it Allan, the glimpse you gave us of lens grinding will have me going down yet another rabbit hole just out of curiosity !!

This was discussed years ago on one of the forums. It seems to me that someone was considering making new lenses as the company that was doing it had decided to quit making them. The lenses were ground and polished.
Bausch and Lomb was one of the names I think that was talked about.

DIY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oe1fQ7tVoU

OR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzsbd3g-jMg

"I think Craig Riker, in Ohio will re-silver mirrors"

Craig does plating of reflectors, he doesn't resilver glass. He does do a great job of getting your reflectors in top notch condition, or anything else you need to have nickle or chrome plated.

There is a lot more science than just putting something shiny and reflective behind a light source. …….as a very slight drift, if you do have original mirrors to get resilvered, you can save by prepping them yourself. A good paint remover to take off the protective paint layer. Then a good grade of toilet bowl cleaner will remove the silver. Takes patience and possibly a couple applications but it works well, and important to use gloves and a scratch proof method of agitating both the paint stripper and toilet bowl cleaner. ………. There is a place in northern Ohio , Rocky River , Ohio , called Bruenning Glass. There is one in north western Ohio , Bigelow glass. They both do silvering ( they may not advertise it, but I’ve used them both and can highly recommend both) . Worth a call to find out.

Michael, my E and J 666 lamps have slotted bases to allow the burners to be shifted fore and aft so the lamps can be focused. There is no one fixed spot to locate them. I have original glass lenses in them, but they are not a matched pair, as I found them some two years apart at different swap meets. However, because they can be focused by shifting the burner, they work well. Looking straight on in daylight, one dark centre appears smaller than the other, reflecting their differing curvature.

Allan from down under.