MTFCA Forum

Heard a gentle popping noise... and found this?!

Have you been to Area 51 lately?

Where did you find this ...and where were you when it popped off ?!?

That was the first time... here is what happened after a few more tries...

Spinning up Winfield floats, are we ????????

metal spinning is one of the few things that really intrigues me that I haven't actually tried yet. I keep having visions of appendages that I'm fond of, flying off over the bench to regions that are hard to get at...

RajoRacer wrote: ↑

Fri May 13, 2022 10:42 pm

Spinning up Winfield floats, are we ????????

Who said anything bout spinning...? This was hydraulically formed!!!

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Fri May 13, 2022 11:06 pm

metal spinning is one of the few things that really intrigues me that I haven't actually tried yet. I keep having visions of appendages that I'm fond of, flying off over the bench to regions that are hard to get at...

You'll be fine......
A saying we have up here in Minnesota when sitting around a campfire drinking.

You might need to relieve the mold to allow it to draw more of the skirt. Just a thought.

Andy

AndyClary wrote: ↑

Sat May 14, 2022 12:03 am

You might need to relieve the mold to allow it to draw more of the skirt. Just a thought.

This one was entirely drawn, and is only about .006” thick at the deepest areas. I tried a couple with smaller blank diameters, and they drew in the extra material well. Unfortunately, I wasn’t very good at centering the blank so they didn’t work out. Materials are running thin, so need to be more strategic thru the weekend...

It looks like a “Bursting Disc” to me. These are usually made of exotic material and fitted under a Safety Valve.
It’s purpose is to protect the Safety Valve from the harsh aggressive material that could corrode it. If the vessel has a over pressure situation it will blow the disc (as shown). Sometimes only the Disc is used but is a once off pressure relief device.
I’ve been the the Safety Relief Valve Business for many years.
Alan In Western Australia

Michael, you made me laugh

most of my career was spent working with a bunch of 1st generation Americans of Swedish decent. What you describe is perfect, and as I recall, said with a Scandinavian accent and either preceded or followed by a *burp*, and typically it was anything but fine!

Good times!

So, just what the heck do you do in your "spare" time, Kevin ????????

Spare “time”...?! What is this spare “time” you speak of...?

Yesterday was a rare occasion when the wife was at work, the kids were with nana, and work was really quiet. I had 8 uninterrupted hours in the shop, and was able to finish the forming fixture and make bout a dozen parts. Only the 1 shown above turned out without popping, but is most likely too light as the material stretched really thin. I hope to try smaller blanks to allow the skirt to draw into the die, and hopefully this will mean less annealing steps too...

The hydraulic forming creates pressure in all directions and on all surfaces, unlike conventional stamping. So the part is exactly the same size as the die, and the resolution is fantastic. If I can get the annealing steps and blank diameter figured out, I suspect that a new float will be easy to make... someday!

There is no measurement of the diameter, but to me it looks like it could be the thrust washer which goes against the differential carrier and the babbit or later bronze washer and the other washer which looks like the one in your picture which is against the housing.
It would need the center cut away and two holes drilled diameterically on each side.
Norm

Do you have an air bleed hole, Kevin? Do you anneal a couple times? Copper or brass? Looks great, you’ll get it.

I’m working with brass, and after so many failures I annealed the successful part about 8-10 times! Probably more than required, but I was determined to get a fully formed part. I started with .020” sheet, and the material tends to fracture when stretched to about .008”-.010”. This one finished at .006”, and was obsessively annealed toward the end. I haven’t been able to form a full hemisphere yet, and I suspect that getting the skirt to draw into the die will be necessary for success. Drawing the skirt into the die should also mean less stretching, and so more consistent material thickness and less bursting!

Target weight 22 grams

In my world it is excellent work Kevin.., but with all your time in making the dies, annealing, etc a high speed spin forming from copper or brass sheet would not take a lot of time to master...., just me! An inside pattern of your float dimensions on the chuck of the lathe made from steel, a nice rough surface holding on the live center, and hard maple paddles for the friction push to form rubbed down with canning paraffin.

All the Best,

Hank

I went down the metal spinning road last year... turns out that .016” brass sheet scares professional metal spinners. All I got back after many months of waiting and multiple no quotes, was inconsistent weight parts with varying interface diameters and overall lengths. The hydraulic forming road was not a first choice, but should produce very high quality parts with minimal size variations

After a quick vinegar bath, it’s ready for solder!

I get it Kevin..., Looks Great! I think I am a dinosaur.

Hank

I ordered some special vibration resistant “no clean” solder that arrived today. Worked like a charm! I am on size, on weight, and floating... at the right height!

Here is a spun float compared to an original;
And here is the new hydraulically formed float compared to the same spun float (not sure where my original went);
All shined up;

Impressive stuff, Kevin

just lovely!

there are some really talented folks on this forum, and I appreciate their willingness to share both success as well as some of the bumps and bruises along the way.

Finally, in all honesty, your thread title does not do you justice (I was drawn in by authorship, not subject description).

Thanks for the kind words Scott! In all honestly, when I started this thread... I wasn’t confident that I would progress beyond the “burst disk” phase

I’m still not “on top” of the process here. I received more material today, and will continue to experiment with annealing intervals, material thicknesses, blank diameters, etc... Hope to iron something out soon as brass sheet is noticeably affecting my wallet!

As someone who goes through a lot of brass, and has to have it shipped in, to boot, I can very much appreciate your wallet-pain on buying that sheet stuff!

Wow! Steve was right. I was very wrong.
Norm

Beautiful ! It’s great to see someone take on a challenge, not because it’s easy, but because it’s hard!

I wouldn’t say that this project falls into the “hard” category... but sure didn’t fall into the “easy” category either! Is there an “approach with extreme caution” category...?

Taaaaa Daaaaaa!

Gorgeous

you had mentioned "vibration proof" solder. I spent 33 years in manufacturing with many of those years in electronics that were destined for severe environment. The vibration and G loads we placed on things on Unholt-Dickey vibration equipment would blow your mind. I never heard of "vibration proof" solder in those years. Our products survived rocket launches and howitzer fire, so the joints were pretty vibration proof. I'm telling you all of this, because I believe you'd be well served with the same eutectic solder, 63/37, and RMA flux that we used. Nothing needs post-flow cleaning, is the very lowest melting point solder there is, with almost no plastic state...it is either solid or it flows. I believe it would be ideal for your work and ought to consider it if it is not what you're using now.

thank you for sharing your results.

for me, the creativity and critical problem solving of this part eclipses the impressive CNC work you've shown. Two entirely different mediums requiring two entirely different skill sets...both impressive, but this for me, is moreso.

Anti vibration was how it was advertised... it is a 63/37 with no rinse rosin core. It worked great on the other 2 SR floats, I got a bit carried away with the heat this time, so let it cool down, and the solder flowed fine for all but the original hot spot. It sealed up fine, but has a few sloppy solder spots. Not too shabby for the first few parts tho!

Kevin,

Those are very nice...did they fall off of a monkey on a cold day?

perry kete wrote: ↑

Thu May 19, 2022 3:23 pm

Kevin,

Those are very nice...did they fall off of a monkey on a cold day?

Sure did! Good thing the are non-sparking

Kevin, you are a craftsman. Thank you for posting.

Must be doing sumpin right! Didn’t have any failures this afternoon, and so will yield 8 complete floats. I switched from MAP gas to propane, and am no longer overheating the brass during the annealing steps. This combined with smaller forming increments is producing very consistent parts.
I trimmed the first few by hand... and it was tedious! So am now scheming on a fixture to trim all these more reliably. The heavy lifting will have to wait tho, I have to get the rebuilt Ruxtell painted and installed in my ‘15 for a tour next month. Have a Winfield S-AA updraft to replace the U&J carb too...

Looks like you’ll need to build some more carbs to use up those floats.


Andy