MTFCA Forum

Posted: **Mon May 16, 2022 9:03 am**

Hello everyone! I have a quick question for you. We own a 1923 TT Fire Truck which should have a serial number of around 6 to 9 million. Why would the serial number be 11,307,223? That seems around 1925... Weren't replacement engines always stamped with the existing block number?

Posted: **Mon May 16, 2022 9:28 am**

No, replacement blocks came unnumbered. Replacement engines came with serial numbers.

Posted: **Mon May 16, 2022 9:31 am**

Weren't replacement engines always stamped with the existing block number?
No, they were not all stamped with the old numbers.
Often times the whole engine/transmission was just swapped out and people did not really care/think about numbers matching, so titles/registrations were not updated with the new number. Even if the old number was stamped on the block, don't think most states would accept a strike through of the old number and restamped with original number. The only time that a block would have been sold without a number would have been if it was just a bare block, no internal parts and from past reading, not all those bare blocks got stamped with the original number so pad was blank.

Posted: **Mon May 16, 2022 9:41 am**

So the truck itself may be a 1923, but the engine may have been replaced?

Posted: **Mon May 16, 2022 10:09 am**

Yes, that could be the case. Is the TT in question low or high radiator? If low then it could be a 1923 or earlier, if high then it could be a 1924 to 1927. The radiator changed at about the same time the cars did.

Posted: **Mon May 16, 2022 10:17 am**

All the above info is correct but there is another possibility. Does the fire truck have a high radiator ? If you don’t know the truck’s full history the truck could be a 1925 that got back dated to 1923 for some reason. Model T’s made in late 1923 are really a 1924 model with the high radiator, some people incorrectly call these Model T’s by the calendar year of 1923. The 1925 T’s looked like the late 1923 T’s, hence the wrong year label, so a 1923, 1924 or 1925, or even 1926-27 for a TT, label even if the engine has been changed out at some point.

Posted: **Mon May 16, 2022 10:36 am**

Thank you everyone for the information! The firetruck is my profile picture, so I am guessing it is a high radiator... I am new to the model T's, but the radiator looks very similar to our 1925 touring, so I am guessing that it is a high radiator. The truck is all original, and has 1923 painted on the hood with the initials for the Savanna Ordnance Depot Fire Department. (SOD FD) I found an online video of the museum which has the truck in it. Since I am not at the truck now, I cannot get photos. https://br-fr.facebook.com/McConnellAre ... 0882311735

Posted: **Mon May 16, 2022 11:37 am**

Looks like a high radiator to me. I have had engine swaps on various cars and went down to the Highway Patrol headquarters and had them look at the car and the new number. They ran a check and if the number hadn't been reported stolen or registered, they just gave me a verification and I got it transferred to the new number. Sometimes the engine number was earlier or later than the registered date of the vehicle. So I would suppose the same could have been done sometime in the past with your vehicle. Very common on vehicles where the engine number is used as a VIN number.
Norm

Posted: **Mon May 16, 2022 1:21 pm**

Thank you for the input!

Posted: **Mon May 16, 2022 1:34 pm**

Maybe something historical happed in 1923 so that date was painted on it or that is when A fire engine was bought. This one could have been rebuilt out of the parts from it using a latter chassis. Or?

Posted: **Mon May 16, 2022 2:43 pm**

Is there any other place on a truck like this that I could look for dating? Even if it is a rough estimate? I will not have access to it for a while, but would look when I got a chance.

Posted: **Mon May 16, 2022 9:47 pm**

Do you have a picture of the vehicle? Maybe we could tell by some of the body features.

Norm

Posted: **Mon May 16, 2022 10:07 pm**

It's a TT fire truck, the front end photo above might be the only good indicator of what year it is along with the engine number.

Posted: **Mon May 16, 2022 11:00 pm**

Rather than rely on what people think things look like in a picture, use this to determine whether your radiator is low or high.

Low = 1923 &earlier; high = 1924 & later.

Is your firewall steel? Then it's after 1922. Does it have a large wiring hole under the terminal board? Then it's 1923. Is the big wiring hole above the terminal board? That's 1924 and later.

On cars the hand brake quadrant is an important clue. Maybe one of the experts can tell us if this applies to trucks too. 4 rivets = 1924 & earlier; 2 rivets = 1925 & later.

That 1923 painted on the vehicle is no guarantee. A Ford made August-December 1923 is a 1924 model. Also, people often misremember what they read or hear. I bought a "1922 touring" which turned out to be a 1923. The TT project sold to me as a 1922 is actually a 1924. The sellers weren't being dishonest about the year. They were just mistaklen.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 12:14 am**

The apron under the radiator indicates a high radiator, as do the lips on the front fenders. On our Canadian sourced cars, this would make it 1923 or later. TT's kept the same components even when the improved 1926-7 cars came along.

Allan from down under.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 3:10 am**

A possible longshot? Being a TT confuses a lot of people. They assume that because so much of the cars changed for 1926, that the TTs did also. But the TTs didn't change so much. Location of the coil box might be a clue IF the TT is 1926 or 1927. Or not. If the frame is a mid/late 1926 or 1927, the frame itself may have the original serial number on the top of one frame rail. It could be on either side, somewhere near the brake handle cross shaft. However, fairly likely it will be a 1924 or 1925, which should not have a serial number from the factory on the frame rail.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 10:17 am**

Thank you all for the input! I will have to look at the car closely the next time I see it.

I am finding these photos in the above video, since I do not have access to a camera that I can upload pictures onto the forum. I will also be losing my computer on the 25th so I will not be able to post on the form for a while. I will have to look at the car, but I don't know if it has a wood firewall, and the coils are in the same spot on the dash. I do not know about the rest of the holes everyone has mentioned. I think that the car has a high radiator, but I will have to measure it.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 10:18 am**

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 10:19 am**

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 10:20 am**

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 10:58 am**

There are a lot of Model T's with parts from different years. Some are such a scramble of parts that they're known as bitsas, Johnny Cash cars, or parts salads. It's possible that's what you have here.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 12:19 pm**

Could the number on the hood be the number of the fire department, or did ordnance depots have that sort of thing? Maybe it is not the year?

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 12:38 pm**

Is that an American LaFrance body? ALF has some very good records in their archive. If it's an ALF body, and it has a serial number, I would contact them to see if they have any records on it that would indicate a date. If they fitted the body to a T chassis, they may also have the original build photo of the truck.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 1:27 pm**

Did some searching on the INTERNET. https://www.lacountyfiremuseum.com/proj ... -model-tt/
"1923 Ford Model “TT” The TT designation was for heavier duty chassis, such as a truck chassis. The TT we have is similar to the 1915, but it has two chemical tanks. You could switch over to the other tank when the first was empty and continue to fight the fire as you refilled the other one with water. This also carried 2.5″ cotton jacketed hose, and that hose would be charged with water with either a fire hydrant, or a pumper."

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Comparing some details I would say it is a 1923 American La France. It would then be likely that parts from from a prior year might be used in assembling the body by ALF. Many things match -(I didn't expect the running boards to but the do). A "no match" is the width of the rear fender but who is correct? Would be worth while to capture some pictures from the museum video and take a corresponding picture of the one under investigation

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Some vintage photos to answer authenticity of questionable differences like rear fenders

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 3:54 pm**

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑
Tue May 17, 2022 1:27 pm
Did some searching on the INTERNET. https://www.lacountyfiremuseum.com/proj ... -model-tt/
"1923 Ford Model “TT” The TT designation was for heavier duty chassis, such as a truck chassis. The TT we have is similar to the 1915, but it has two chemical tanks. You could switch over to the other tank when the first was empty and continue to fight the fire as you refilled the other one with water. This also carried 2.5″ cotton jacketed hose, and that hose would be charged with water with either a fire hydrant, or a pumper."
1923FordTT9 main.jpg
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--
Comparing some details I would say it is a 1923 American La France. It would then be likely that parts from from a prior year might be used in assembling the body by ALF. Many things match -(I didn't expect the running boards to but the do). A "no match" is the width of the rear fender but who is correct? Would be worth while to capture some pictures from the museum video and take a corresponding picture of the one under investigation
1923FordTT -1.jpg

1923FordTT2 -2.jpg
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--
Some vintage photos to answer authenticity of questionable differences like rear fenders

It looks like that truck has a high radiator. If it is a 1923 like it says, why would it have a high radiator?

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 3:56 pm**

I have talked with another owner of a truck like ours, and the fenders on theirs are different as well.

I see that this truck has a lip on the rear fenders. Ours does not, but this truck has that same design.

Posted: **Tue May 17, 2022 3:58 pm**

I guess that we also have to keep in mind that this may have been more "custom" than other LaFrance trucks, because it was on an Ordnance Depot truck.

Posted: **Wed May 18, 2022 1:28 am**

Posted: **Wed May 18, 2022 9:41 am**

The above plate is not from our truck, but from another truck that was featured in the Vintage Fire Truck Magazine.

(Thank you for cropping it and rotating it for us all.)

Posted: **Wed May 18, 2022 11:13 am**

The visual difference between low and high hoods can be tricky. I've found the best way is to look at the car from the side -- if the hood hinge is close to the top of the headlight, its a low hood. If there's a bit of space between the two, its a high hood.

Your truck looks like a high hood. That, plus the apron and fender style supports a March 1925 date as the engine number states.

The date "1923" painted on the hood looks like it was added over the past fifty years, probably by someone who sincerely thought that was the year of the truck.

Posted: **Wed May 18, 2022 12:39 pm**

Your truck seems to match the Brown's Mills truck the closest. The ALF bodies have a bit different construction than yours. The "Rockville" truck, I believe, might be a Boyer.

Maybe look up the antique fire engine club, SPAAMFAA.
https://spaamfaa.org/

Posted: **Wed May 18, 2022 10:08 pm**

There is an easy way to tell a high radiator from a low one. The shell on a low radiator has the sides square to the front of the core. On a high radiator, the sides are flared outwards to the back to follow the taper in the hood. This is why cutting down a high shell never results in a good fit for a low hood. And it is also why the once available high reproduction shells never fitted well because the sides were made square to the front.

Allan from down under.

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