Can of worms officially opened
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Topic author - Posts: 686
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Can of worms officially opened
What have your experiences with marvel's mystery oil been?
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Jonah,
Like everything else, MMO has it's place and places where it should not be. Many here use it and many here loathe it. You WILL get both of their opinions since you have asked.
I have used MMO for many years although I have not used it on our Ts......yet. I may if I find it would be the best option.
Good Luck,
Terry
Like everything else, MMO has it's place and places where it should not be. Many here use it and many here loathe it. You WILL get both of their opinions since you have asked.
I have used MMO for many years although I have not used it on our Ts......yet. I may if I find it would be the best option.
Good Luck,
Terry
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
I find it excellent for lubricating air-powered tools - some even come with it. I also have used it for freeing up long frozen (seized) engines.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Jonah, you have found the best use for MMO. To start a very opinionated discussion on a public automobile forum.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
I tried it as Model T engine oil additive (a few oz) because I read of potential benefiits, BIG mistake! Developed Immediate brake band chatter, especially during the last few feet coming to each and every stop. Had to change the oil several times before the band chatter improved but never completely stopped.
I-Timer + ECCT Adjusted Coils = Best Model T Engine Performance Possible!
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Only have used MMO in the gas tank, per label 4oz to 10gal.
About every 3rd fill up. Perhaps helps the valve stems from sticking, those exhaust valves are prone to that. Haven’t seen less carbon buildup on piston tops or cylinder head dome, but like to use it.
With todays different seasonal fuel blends that add driers and such, plus that dang ethanol, think a fuel related top end oil is useful on our T’s.
Main ingredient is wintergreen oil, sure makes the fuel and exhaust smell nice!
About every 3rd fill up. Perhaps helps the valve stems from sticking, those exhaust valves are prone to that. Haven’t seen less carbon buildup on piston tops or cylinder head dome, but like to use it.
With todays different seasonal fuel blends that add driers and such, plus that dang ethanol, think a fuel related top end oil is useful on our T’s.
Main ingredient is wintergreen oil, sure makes the fuel and exhaust smell nice!
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
I particularly like the logo on the old metal cans, Either round or rectangular is nice.
I have used it but don't remember the results being spectacular.
I'm sad to see it in plastic bottles.
Rich
I have used it but don't remember the results being spectacular.
I'm sad to see it in plastic bottles.
Rich
When did I do that?
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
When I picked up my new engine I was advised to add 4oz to every 10 gal. Makes sense for breaking in a new engine. A little lubrication if it wasnt burnt off. Did I notice anything -no. But I am not an expert.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Jonah- decide for yourself. Research the substances below and let us know what value they would add to your engine...
<o><o><o><o> Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks - Forum member since 2013 <o><o><o><o>
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Had a "friend" put some in the gas tank of my 1924 Buick years ago. Huge mistake! Screwed up the carburetor for the next several years! Sticky caked on varnish that would not quit, despite multiple cleanings and chiseling away the build-up. Even after running through several tanks of gas, the problem still lingered. Admittedly, the "friend" put in way too much, but after dealing with the outcome I never want to see that stuff again!
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
I've used it for decades with good results. I've never seen any indication of it causing any harm. It was a very useful product in the days of non-detergent, single grade motor oils and non-detergent gasolines. It still has its uses. I've had success using it in old, sludged engines to free up sticky rings and noisey hydraulic valve lifters. It appears to be helpful in freeing engines that have become stuck from long periods of non-use. It will not effect mechanical repairs, and neither will any other oil or fuel additive.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
I don't think Marvel oil would gum up your carburetor, even if you filled the gas tank with straight Marvel Oil and ran the car until it stalled, then let it sit for ten years.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
I have heard of it not being compatible with this poison we have here used as motor fuel. This was 15 or so years ago. FWIW.
I do use ATF as cylinder & valve lubrication.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
I've used Marvel Oil in E10 gasoline off and on for many years with no ill effects. I have never used it with E85, and that might need some checking into. I've used it in small engines, larger carbureted engines, Ford Powerstroke and GMC Duramax diesel engines, and fuel-injected gasoline engines. Speaking of diesel engines, I believe that MMO would be a good thing to add to ultra-low sulphur diesel fuel used in older engines with mechanical injection pumps.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
I have a friend who recommends the stuff, but he's also a diabetic smoker who gives health advice.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
My original thoughts was Snake oil, but will say it has changed, I fly an older aircraft, Franklin engine that is lower compression than Lycoming problem is the 100 LL fuel is a lead additive and with lower compression the lead builds up on everything, have added it to my fuel and compression has raised 15lbs on each cylinder, so I guess I can not call it Snake oil anymore! There is lots of pilots that use it with confidents!
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
There is an STC for the use in aircraft also, so it must do some good??
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
MMO is just as big a can of worms in the aviation hobby as it is here. I’ve never heard of a supplemental type certificate to run it airplanes; people I know who use it just use it. Is the STC for fuel or oil or both?
Miles
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Steve, you are presenting a logical fallacy ! (two, actually)Steve Jelf wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 11:32 pmI have a friend who recommends the stuff, but he's also a diabetic smoker who gives health advice.
Get a horse !
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
I have always thought the name alone was reason enough to use it."Marvel Mystery Oil." What's not to like about that?
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
I've used MMO for about 60 years. I've found it useful for de-gumming mechanical devices, among many other uses. It does a very good job of cleaning out air tools that have been used on a wet, sludgy air line. I've never observed any indication of gumming or corrosion from contact with MMO on any kind of metal, whether short term or long term. I've kept some opened, partially-used containers Of MMO around for years, and it has shown no tendency to decay or thicken. I've had consistently good results using MMO, where appropriate. Rislone is another good product that can be useful when dealing with old engines, espcially those suffering from poor maintenence and/or long storage.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
...and by gosh, it smells pretty!
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
A friend of mine here at work had some sent out for analysis, turns out is just Automatic Transmission Fluid. Now whenever I feel I need MMO, I just substitute less expensive ATF
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
MMO was around long before ATF, so maybe ATF is MMO... ATF, such as the Ford Type F, and older GM formulations, has long been used to free up gummed, noisy hydraulic valve lifters. Late model, synthetic ATF formulations may not be as versatile.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Same here, I actually transfer it from the new plastic bottles into the old metal cans before use. Call me a traditional purist!Rich Eagle wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 11:46 amI particularly like the logo on the old metal cans, I'm sad to see it in plastic bottles.
Rich
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Jeff,
I've often wondered if Kroil, "The Oil That Creeps", is not also just ATF.
https://www.kroil.com/
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
I've often wondered if Kroil, "The Oil That Creeps", is not also just ATF.
Actually, ATF/Acetone is said to be better.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Have seen that test posted before, wonder what a 'scientifically rusted environment' was created?
Have tried that mix of Acetone/ATF and didn't work well. Wasn't what the results I get with Aero Kroil, the Aero comes in an aerosol can, and sure is convenient to 'spray' with the tiny nozzle right where you are working on that 100 year old rusted T fastener!
The mixture had to be poured and just ran off, and the mixture evaporated very fast, even in a jar. Guess if you have the piece apart from the chassis and could soak it for hours, then may be useful to someone. For me, the spray can is the best, can shoot it in any angle, upside down, and get the penetrate to the right spot. Clearing the fastener openings, with a wire brush first, so that the gap between fasteners is suitable for the penetrate, it won't cut through dirt and caked grease.
I'll stick with Aero Kroil, the best I have used over the years on T parts and pieces!
Have tried that mix of Acetone/ATF and didn't work well. Wasn't what the results I get with Aero Kroil, the Aero comes in an aerosol can, and sure is convenient to 'spray' with the tiny nozzle right where you are working on that 100 year old rusted T fastener!
The mixture had to be poured and just ran off, and the mixture evaporated very fast, even in a jar. Guess if you have the piece apart from the chassis and could soak it for hours, then may be useful to someone. For me, the spray can is the best, can shoot it in any angle, upside down, and get the penetrate to the right spot. Clearing the fastener openings, with a wire brush first, so that the gap between fasteners is suitable for the penetrate, it won't cut through dirt and caked grease.
I'll stick with Aero Kroil, the best I have used over the years on T parts and pieces!
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Running a non-TSO'd or STC'd product in an aircraft could lead to huge liability for you. Unless the engine manufacturer and the aircraft manufacturer both approve it, you should definitely not run it. About the last aircraft built with a factory Franklin engine was the Bell 47. Whether the manufacturer of your aircraft is still around I don't know, but has every single component of your aircraft's fuel system been tested for compatibility with MMO? I doubt it. There is a reason for the FAA approval process.
Last edited by John Codman on Thu May 19, 2022 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
I too have seen that study. It should be remembered that WD-40 was never intended to be a penetrating oil. The WD stands for Water Displacement.Steve Jelf wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:49 amI've often wondered if Kroil, "The Oil That Creeps", is not also just ATF.
Actually, ATF/Acetone is said to be better.
Penetrants.jpg
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Nice to see so many guys pretty much calling snake oil snake oil. Quite refreshing actually. Pour it in the engine and you’re just thinning the engine oil. Pour it in the fuel tank and it’s so totally thinned out that it blows right past everything and goes out the tail pipe.
Forget everything you thought you knew.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Dry and rusty fasteners, such as body bolts, may respond well to a mix of detergent and lemon juice. I've read that heating a rusted fastener to several hundred degrees and applying beef tallow is helpful. I'd think lard would give a similar result. Pickling vinegar and lard, whipped to a paste, might be good.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Added to gasoline, MMO and similar products tend to accumulate in small amounts on intake valve stems, which can be beneficial. They can also provide extra lubrication to piston rings, especially the top and seconnd ring, and can help free stuck rings. MMO can help clean and free clogged oil rings. I've had excellent results with MMO in quieting noisy hydraulic lifters in old engines. MMO burns very clean. When used as directed, when appropriate, it can be quite useful. The various STP-type oil thickening products can be useful in worn engines. They can reduce oil burning and mechanical noises and give better overall performance. They can support oil pressure in worn engines running in hot weather. Such products must be used with caution in splash lubricated engines in cold weather, and they can contribute to clutch drag in Model Ts and other vehicles with multi-disk wet clutches. As far as I know, purchases and use of these products has yet to be mandated. I choose to use them, on a limited basis, and I have had generally good results. MMO is one of the lower-priced products of this sort, and, in my opinion, among the most useful. Products than contain moly sulphide, graphite, teflon, and so forth are probably not good for use in Model T engines. They could cause issues with transmission and brake bands, and possibly with the clutch and the magneto. I don't use moly grease on my Model T U-joint, since some of it could find its way into the transmission.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
John, I agree with you when I heard it from my IA, it is a 1946 Franklin after running this for a hundred hours in the last year I noticed compression dropping, I added the snake oil and after one tank through it the compression came up on the cylinders by 15lbs. the plane even felt to have more power, so it was proven to me? I am all about safety and fuel, I can run non ethanel fuel in it but will stick to the 100LL at least I know it is regulated!
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
John, just fuel.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
It is an excellent de-gumming agent. It will wake up 70 yr old Diesel fuel pump plungers as stated above. In a moment or less.
Vroom! Maybe valve stems too?
I happen to be not scared of this snake oil as some say. I don't know if it's Kero. I don't think so.
ATF has little lubricating properties according to some anymore. They say: Lube? Use two cycle oil.
Gosh, I sound like a troll. Not intended. Sorry folks.
Vroom! Maybe valve stems too?
I happen to be not scared of this snake oil as some say. I don't know if it's Kero. I don't think so.
ATF has little lubricating properties according to some anymore. They say: Lube? Use two cycle oil.
Gosh, I sound like a troll. Not intended. Sorry folks.
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Sssh! Please don't tell the 163,000 mile automatic transmission in my Dodge that it has been running on a fluid with little lubricating properties.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Mystery_Oil
The Marvel Oil Company (also known as Marvel Carburetor Company; Marvel-Schebler Carburetors since 1928) was founded by Burt Pierce in 1923. After World War I, the company produced carburetors for automobiles and aircraft. Some of these encountered problems with clogged jets, prompting Pierce to formulate a blend of chemicals and petroleum to clean and maintain them. Marvel claims the oil creates a top ring seal producing higher compression, preventing blow-by on power strokes, resulting in more power. Supporting evidence is not provided.
The Marvel Oil Company was initially based in Chicago, moved to New York in 1941 and was purchased by Turtle Wax Inc. in 1999, returning to Chicago.
According to the company, the name Mystery Oil comes from Pierce's answer to the question, "what kind of oil is this?" to which Pierce would respond, "It's a mystery!" Composition
According to the company's 2015 safety data sheet Marvel Mystery Oil is composed of:
Petroleum distillates (hydrotreated heavy naphthenic) also known as mineral oil, 60–100%[3]
Petroleum distillates (Stoddard solvent) also known as white spirit, 10–30%[3]
Tricresyl phosphate, an antiwear and extreme pressure additive in lubricants 0.1–1.0%[3]
Ortho-dichlorobenzene, a softening and removing agent for carbon-based contamination on metal surfaces, 0.1–1.0%[3]
Para-dichlorobenzene, a precursor used in the production of chemically and thermally resistant polymers, <0.1%[3]
In an NTSB post aircraft accident investigation published in 2003, it was reported that Marvel Mystery Oil was composed of 74 percent mineral oil, 25 percent stoddard solvent, and 1 percent lard. "N5428H Incident Report Narrative NYC02LA181". National Transportation Safety Board. October 17, 2003. Retrieved March 13, 2016.
Claims
Marvel Mystery Oil marketing literature claims benefits which include improved lubricating qualities, primarily cleaning and friction reduction capabilities. The product has previously been marketed as a fuel additive in all kinds of engines, including aircraft (although the company no longer markets it for the latter application on their website). It has also been used as an oil additive, corrosion inhibitor, penetrating oil, and in automatic transmissions as a leak stopper and seal relubricator.[5] Supporting evidence for claimed benefits is not provided by the manufacturer.
The lubricant was used as a fuel additive in a Lycoming aircraft engine which was specifically cautioned against oil additives (Service Instruction No. 1014M, which also stated its use would void the warranty) which suffered catastrophic damage during take-off. The NTSB listed the probable cause of the accident as "The improper use of [a] fuel additive which resulted in a power loss."
Auto manufacturers Ford and GM recommend against using engine oil additives, stating they are unnecessary in their contemporary engine designs and may void their warranties.
Stoddard solvent
Synonyms & Trade Names
Dry cleaning safety solvent, Mineral spirits, Petroleum solvent, Spotting naphtha [Note: A refined petroleum solvent with a flash point of 102-110°F, boiling point of 309-396°F, and containing >65% C10 or higher hydrocarbons.]
ortho-dichlorobenzene, is an organic compound. It is a non-polar colorless liquid that is miscible in most organic solvents. This derivative of benzene differs from the parent compound by the presence of two adjacent chlorine atoms. 1,2-dichlorobenzene is used as a precursor for agrochemicals, as a solvent for fullerenes, as an insecticide and as an agent to remove carbon-based contamination from metal.
Paradichlorobenzene is a synthetic, white crystalline solid that is practically insoluble in water and soluble in ether, chloroform, carbon disulfide, benzene, alcohol and acetone. It is used primarily as a space deodorant in products such as room deodorizers, urinal and toilet bowl blocks, and as an insecticide fumigant for moth control.When 1,4-dichlorobenzene is heated to decomposition, toxic gases and vapors (such as hydrochloric acid and carbon monoxide) are released.
The primary route of potential human exposure to this compound is inhalation. Acute inhalation exposure to 1,4-dichlorobenzene can result in coughing and breathing difficulties. Breathing high levels of this chemical can cause headaches, dizziness and liver damage. Contact with 1,4-dichlorobenzene can irritate the eyes, leading to burning and tearing. It is reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen
The Marvel Oil Company (also known as Marvel Carburetor Company; Marvel-Schebler Carburetors since 1928) was founded by Burt Pierce in 1923. After World War I, the company produced carburetors for automobiles and aircraft. Some of these encountered problems with clogged jets, prompting Pierce to formulate a blend of chemicals and petroleum to clean and maintain them. Marvel claims the oil creates a top ring seal producing higher compression, preventing blow-by on power strokes, resulting in more power. Supporting evidence is not provided.
The Marvel Oil Company was initially based in Chicago, moved to New York in 1941 and was purchased by Turtle Wax Inc. in 1999, returning to Chicago.
According to the company, the name Mystery Oil comes from Pierce's answer to the question, "what kind of oil is this?" to which Pierce would respond, "It's a mystery!" Composition
According to the company's 2015 safety data sheet Marvel Mystery Oil is composed of:
Petroleum distillates (hydrotreated heavy naphthenic) also known as mineral oil, 60–100%[3]
Petroleum distillates (Stoddard solvent) also known as white spirit, 10–30%[3]
Tricresyl phosphate, an antiwear and extreme pressure additive in lubricants 0.1–1.0%[3]
Ortho-dichlorobenzene, a softening and removing agent for carbon-based contamination on metal surfaces, 0.1–1.0%[3]
Para-dichlorobenzene, a precursor used in the production of chemically and thermally resistant polymers, <0.1%[3]
In an NTSB post aircraft accident investigation published in 2003, it was reported that Marvel Mystery Oil was composed of 74 percent mineral oil, 25 percent stoddard solvent, and 1 percent lard. "N5428H Incident Report Narrative NYC02LA181". National Transportation Safety Board. October 17, 2003. Retrieved March 13, 2016.
Claims
Marvel Mystery Oil marketing literature claims benefits which include improved lubricating qualities, primarily cleaning and friction reduction capabilities. The product has previously been marketed as a fuel additive in all kinds of engines, including aircraft (although the company no longer markets it for the latter application on their website). It has also been used as an oil additive, corrosion inhibitor, penetrating oil, and in automatic transmissions as a leak stopper and seal relubricator.[5] Supporting evidence for claimed benefits is not provided by the manufacturer.
The lubricant was used as a fuel additive in a Lycoming aircraft engine which was specifically cautioned against oil additives (Service Instruction No. 1014M, which also stated its use would void the warranty) which suffered catastrophic damage during take-off. The NTSB listed the probable cause of the accident as "The improper use of [a] fuel additive which resulted in a power loss."
Auto manufacturers Ford and GM recommend against using engine oil additives, stating they are unnecessary in their contemporary engine designs and may void their warranties.
Stoddard solvent
Synonyms & Trade Names
Dry cleaning safety solvent, Mineral spirits, Petroleum solvent, Spotting naphtha [Note: A refined petroleum solvent with a flash point of 102-110°F, boiling point of 309-396°F, and containing >65% C10 or higher hydrocarbons.]
ortho-dichlorobenzene, is an organic compound. It is a non-polar colorless liquid that is miscible in most organic solvents. This derivative of benzene differs from the parent compound by the presence of two adjacent chlorine atoms. 1,2-dichlorobenzene is used as a precursor for agrochemicals, as a solvent for fullerenes, as an insecticide and as an agent to remove carbon-based contamination from metal.
Paradichlorobenzene is a synthetic, white crystalline solid that is practically insoluble in water and soluble in ether, chloroform, carbon disulfide, benzene, alcohol and acetone. It is used primarily as a space deodorant in products such as room deodorizers, urinal and toilet bowl blocks, and as an insecticide fumigant for moth control.When 1,4-dichlorobenzene is heated to decomposition, toxic gases and vapors (such as hydrochloric acid and carbon monoxide) are released.
The primary route of potential human exposure to this compound is inhalation. Acute inhalation exposure to 1,4-dichlorobenzene can result in coughing and breathing difficulties. Breathing high levels of this chemical can cause headaches, dizziness and liver damage. Contact with 1,4-dichlorobenzene can irritate the eyes, leading to burning and tearing. It is reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Marvel Schebler carburetors are known Russian agents!
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Hi Jonah,
I will see your can of worms & raise you a Ampco oiler to lube the Judson.
Craig.
I will see your can of worms & raise you a Ampco oiler to lube the Judson.
Craig.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Marvel also sold an oiler, which I believe they called the "Marvel Inverse Oiler".
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
The dashboard portion of the Marvel Mystery Inverse Oiler…
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
Rich,
George at Judsonguru has them gdfolchi@yahoo.com They come in the original box with yellowed paper instructions he has a bunch of different styles.
He is very helpful.
Craig.
George at Judsonguru has them gdfolchi@yahoo.com They come in the original box with yellowed paper instructions he has a bunch of different styles.
He is very helpful.
Craig.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
More info on oilers.
Ampco lubricators LLC George B. Folchi phone (860) 355- 5706 Fax (845) 635- 8442 P.O. Box 1468, New Milford, CT 06776 www.ampcolubes.com
Craig.
Ampco lubricators LLC George B. Folchi phone (860) 355- 5706 Fax (845) 635- 8442 P.O. Box 1468, New Milford, CT 06776 www.ampcolubes.com
Craig.
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Re: Can of worms officially opened
I had said: ATF has little lubricating properties according to some anymore.
Jerry and John replied:
"So, to those "some", I would ask what then is lubricating our automatic transmissions? "
"Sssh! Please don't tell the 163,000 mile automatic transmission in my Dodge that it has been running on a fluid with little lubricating properties."
Me: Ain't that the truth! Bazillions of miles simply using ATF in transmissions.
Maw put 248,500 on her '11 Traverse and it was still goin' without a hitch in its giddy-up. I think her '14 is around 130,000 now.
My '05 pickup has 163,000 and if the computer thinks something is wrong with a bunch of things, shut it off, open the door, close it, start it back up and no problem. Vehicles are silly but they work.
I don't think the Traverses have a dipstick to check the ATF level! The owners manual tells something like that and don't change the ATF.
I 'spose where I was coming from was the older IH Diesel community where they've seen a change over the years when old ATF was the go-to to add to Diesel fuel to keep gum away. Perhaps Diesel has gotten even dryer more like JP-8 or so.
Glad to be outed and appreciate your good natures. I blabber too much tho.
Jerry and John replied:
"So, to those "some", I would ask what then is lubricating our automatic transmissions? "
"Sssh! Please don't tell the 163,000 mile automatic transmission in my Dodge that it has been running on a fluid with little lubricating properties."
Me: Ain't that the truth! Bazillions of miles simply using ATF in transmissions.
Maw put 248,500 on her '11 Traverse and it was still goin' without a hitch in its giddy-up. I think her '14 is around 130,000 now.
My '05 pickup has 163,000 and if the computer thinks something is wrong with a bunch of things, shut it off, open the door, close it, start it back up and no problem. Vehicles are silly but they work.
I don't think the Traverses have a dipstick to check the ATF level! The owners manual tells something like that and don't change the ATF.
I 'spose where I was coming from was the older IH Diesel community where they've seen a change over the years when old ATF was the go-to to add to Diesel fuel to keep gum away. Perhaps Diesel has gotten even dryer more like JP-8 or so.
Glad to be outed and appreciate your good natures. I blabber too much tho.
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated