Thoughts on type of gas

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Bryce S.
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Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Bryce S. » Mon May 16, 2022 2:10 pm

I'm curious about what people tend to like to run their T's on. I know that today's gas is much better than it ever has been but is everyone just running regular 87 or is it worth going out of the way to find ethanol free fuel? I can do either since my carb has a drain on the bottom of it so no fuel will be sitting in the carb for extended periods of time.

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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by John Heaman » Mon May 16, 2022 2:22 pm

Ethanol free.
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon May 16, 2022 2:40 pm

Ethanol-free gas might be expected to provide about 5% more power compared to E-10 gas. Ethanol-free gas avoids the various issues related to ethanol-adulterated gasoline. Your car should run fine on E-10, and it won't cause any problems in the short term. I would not leave E-10 in the car for long periods, expecially in a hot, humid climate. I would stay away from E-15 or E-85. A Model T should run on these fuels, but the higher ethanol blends will require different carburetor mixture adjustments and timing adjustments, and I would expect reduced power and mileage. Problems associated with stale ethanol-adulterated fuel would probably be worsened with E-15 and higher blends. Starting might be more difficult with E-85. I would not hesitate to run a T on E-10, but I would want to use it all up and replace with non-ethanol fuel during any prolonged period of storage or limited use. (Over a month to six weeks)

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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by JTT3 » Mon May 16, 2022 2:46 pm

.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon May 16, 2022 2:51 pm

You definitely have to keep your eyes on the road when running Everclear in a T. But a T handles it better than a two-mule hitch.... !

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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by JTT3 » Mon May 16, 2022 2:57 pm

.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Norman Kling » Mon May 16, 2022 4:24 pm

Depends on where you live. In California, the government regulates the blend of fuel which changes according to the hot time of the year and the colder time of the year. I just use the lowest octane found at the gas stations. In my town the Sinclair station has the lowest price, so I go into the Dinosaur station to get dinosaur gas for my car, and it runs fine. It needs to be run often because if the gas sets in the tank for too long it gets thick and clogs up the fuel line. If I drive at least once every 3 months or more often the state blend works fine.
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Craig Leach » Mon May 16, 2022 5:23 pm

Most states ban straight gas, I know some that use Aviation gas so it will not go bad but I have found some waxy deposits from aviation gas that has set for a long time. Anything I have gas that sets for a long time it gets treated with Star-Tron, Seafoam, or Briggs & Stratton fuel stabilizers. All three will keep gas stable for 12-18 months. I also buy Chevron gas if I know it will be sitting ( just seems to stay fresh longer )
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon May 16, 2022 5:48 pm

I use whatever is least expensive. That's usually E-10. No problems. Some people gripe that it goes bad if you let it sit for months. I solve that by driving enough to use it up. I did once try E-85 because the price was so low. The mileage was so bad that E-10 cost less per mile.
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Erik Johnson » Mon May 16, 2022 6:15 pm

You need to refrain from using ethanol free gasoline only if your carb float is cork and sealed with shellac.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by jiminbartow » Mon May 16, 2022 9:48 pm

I will only use ethanol free gas in my T. Check out: www.pure-gas.org, for ethanol free gas near you. Jim Patrick


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Professor Fate » Mon May 16, 2022 10:33 pm

Ever try 100LL AVGAS.???
Best to cut it 50/50 or 60/40 87 octane and 100 octane. The "LL" designation is "low lead."
I'd advise against running straight AVGAS as the elevated lead content could foul plugs.
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon May 16, 2022 10:49 pm

Not to mention, illegal and entirely unnecessary in our engines

I'm not exactly a tree-hugger, but burning leaded fuel in an automobile is not exactly the most responsible thing to do these days.
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon May 16, 2022 11:05 pm

... burning leaded fuel in an automobile is not exactly the most responsible thing to do these days.

And in a Model T, a waste of money. ;)
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue May 17, 2022 12:19 am

An octane rating, or octane number, is a standard measure of a fuel's ability to withstand compression in an internal combustion engine without detonating. The higher the octane number, the more compression the fuel can withstand before detonating. Octane rating does not relate directly to the power output but simply indicates gasoline's capability against compression.
The advantage in using Ethanol gas (87-88) over Ethanol Free Gas (averages about 90 Octane) is the price.
Leaded Gasoline should never be used in a vehicle with a catalytic converter as it will destroy its effectiveness to reduce emissions. If you live in a State that does emissions testing - it will be noticed.
Ethanol Free gas should be used in older lawn and garden engines and some automobiles built prior to 1975. The reason for this is that these engines contained parts that react with ethanol.
Here are two charts use your head to decide your gas.
compression ratios.png
compression ratios.png (104.58 KiB) Viewed 4412 times
Screen Shot 2016-07-27 at 11_10_36 PM.png
Screen Shot 2016-07-27 at 11_10_36 PM.png (29.39 KiB) Viewed 4412 times
--
--
There are also different methods of measuring an Octane rating - in t he US the RM/2 method is used but in other countries it may be RON or MON. While the numbers are in the same range the values are different for the grade gas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Professor Fate » Tue May 17, 2022 7:52 am

Burning leaded fuel is fine. The government can stay out of and away from my TAILPIPE.
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue May 17, 2022 9:43 am

Well, Dan, maybe you'll turn me into a tree hugger

Do you dispose of oil and coolant into the dirt near your well, too?

Odd how some folks live in some of the most restrictive areas of the country care the least of what they do and odd how some folks who live in virtual freedom of laws manage to do the right thing. Is it that excessive law-breaking leads to excess laws or is it that complete freedom leads to self-regulation? Interesting question, no?
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Professor Fate » Tue May 17, 2022 9:58 am

O' happy day...
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Professor Fate » Tue May 17, 2022 10:07 am

I've used 100LL in my '67 Ariens snowblower with great success. It runs so good on it compared to pump gas (ethrnol).
" I've run my '23 on it cut with pump gas. Car runs great on it."
---->That's really all I set out to say here.<----
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Professor Fate » Tue May 17, 2022 7:25 pm

Back to the top....
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Professor Fate » Tue May 17, 2022 8:00 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 9:43 am

Do you dispose of oil and coolant into the dirt near your well, too?
Wow!
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by JohnH » Tue May 17, 2022 8:24 pm

I have always used E-10 with good results. I never seem to have any of the troubles with it that others mention. I use it in my modern car and lawnmower. It can sit for months and the engine will start first go.
One of the best performances from my Model T was when I used it to dispose of some old petrol that had been sitting in a 46 V8 for several years. It stank and had changed colour, but the T never ran so well.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Professor Fate » Tue May 17, 2022 8:31 pm

Did the gas just have an odor or was it cloudy or anything visual?
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Oldav8tor » Tue May 17, 2022 8:59 pm

Old chemistry teacher here. Leaded fuel was not available until the early 1920's, when it was added to help prevent detonation in higher compression engines---not 20 HP Model T's. Leaded fuel is still used in aviation but there are lead-free replacements just over the horizon. You might find the attached story interesting.
"A filling station in Dayton, Ohio, sold the first gallon of leaded gasoline in February 1923. Thomas Midgley Jr. missed the event. The General Motors engineer who discovered that tetraethyl lead, also called TEL, raised the octane of gasoline was in Miami, Florida, convalescing from severe lead poisoning.

Midgley and his boss, Charles Kettering, the man who patented the electric starter in 1911, had ignored the known health risks of lead. Exposure affects not only the nervous, cardiovascular, and immune systems, but it can also cause major behavioral issues and learning problems in young children.

But in engines, the toxic compound eliminated knock, which was an industry-wide problem at the time. TEL was held up as the protector of valve seats and high-compression engines. Kettering also knew it was a better bet for GM than ethanol, which had similar benefits but couldn’t be patented.
"

The ethanol-gasoline blended fuels available today are fine for your Model T with a few caveats. If you seldom drive you would be advised to add a fuel stabilizer and keep the tank full to prevent condensation. Over time (many months), ethanol and water can combine resulting in a separation of the alcohol/water mix from the gasoline, which will settle to the bottom of the tank. If the inside of the tank is bare metal then corrosion may occur. You'll want to drain the offending mixture out. The other problem is fuel system components. Aluminum and some types of rubber and plastic don't stand up well to ethanol - fortunately, Model T fuel systems are unlikely to contain these materials. Brass sediment bulb, steel fuel line, steel or brass carburetor, brass carb float, etc. All good.

If the price was comparable, I'd buy unleaded "Rec" gas. As it is, I've sometimes filled the tank with "Rec" gas when parking it for winter storage...I've also filled it with regular gas and added a stabilizer. In both cases I drain the fuel line and carb bowl. Regardless of how I prep for winter, the car starts right off each spring and runs just great. Henry never had fuel as good as is available to us today.
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue May 17, 2022 10:05 pm

I'm certain that all of us understand the issues with lead in drinking water and paint. Lead poisoning isn’t just a problem for children who are exposed to contaminated drinking water or chipped lead-based paint on older toys. Studies suggests that many middle-aged and older adults experience cognitive problems today because they breathed car exhaust from leaded gasoline when they were young.
Leaded gas fueled most vehicles on the road beginning in 1923, when it was first added to gasoline to keep car engines healthy, until 1996, when it was banned in the United States after being linked to widespread cognitive damage in children. On average, childhood lead exposure cut Americans’ IQ scores by 3 points, according to study results reported in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
The damage was doubled, however, for people born during the 1960s and 1970s, when leaded gasoline usage hit its zenith in the United States, the study found. Typical levels of childhood lead exposure during these decades resulted in an average IQ score reduction of six points, with even larger hits to IQ for those with the highest levels of lead exposure.
Lead exposure is one of the many things associated with cardiovascular disease and cardiovascular risk factors such as smoking, hypertension, elevated cholesterol, and diabetes. Lead exposure also adversely affects renal and reproductive functions and has been associated with cancer. However. Lead is particularly noted for its impact as a neurotoxin. There haven't been studies conducted yet to show a relationship of past lead exposure to Alzheimer's
but there have been to Parkinson's.
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Oldav8tor » Tue May 17, 2022 10:23 pm

Frank gives a very clear explanation why lead is a bad thing. I would suspect city dwellers suffered disproportionally due to the higher concentration of exhaust fumes in the air they breathed.

Many things that we gave little thought to in the "good old days" have proven to have been very bad ideas. Things we used to do in our shirtsleeves in university chem labs in the late '60's would require hazmat suits and external air supplies today. I remember the fun of rolling Mercury around in my hands as a kid to name one... I've lost classmates to lung cancer who started smoking as kids because it was portrayed as "cool." If we continue "business as usual" after becoming aware of such hazards and then complain about restrictions we are complicit in the damage they cause.
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Alan Long » Tue May 17, 2022 10:46 pm

We have the choice of three unleaded Petrol grades in our state. These are 92, 95 and Premium 98.
Both of our “Daily drive” vehicles and 1966 Mustang recommend either 95 minimum or 98. I choose 98.
Sure it’s a bit more expensive but I notice the slight increase in performance and economy.
As a result (which I’m told regularly I’m wasting money) everything in my home where possible runs 98 including the two Model T’s, Lawn mower and edger! Well over the top I know but that’s just me! Fuel usage is about 8% of our living expenses.
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by JTT3 » Tue May 17, 2022 10:57 pm

While not minimizing the serious problems that lead can have on everything including death, the following is true too.This is the world we created. Bacon consumption is one of the many things associated with cardiovascular disease and cardiovascular risk factors such as smoking, hypertension, elevated cholesterol, and diabetes. Bacon also adversely affects renal and reproductive functions and has been associated with cancer. However bacon or pork products such as sausage carry botulism which is particularly noted for its impact as a neurotoxin. The word Botulism is derived from the Latin word for sausage. There have been studies conducted to show a relationship of bacon consumption to Dementia & a link to Parkinson's.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed May 18, 2022 6:21 am

It took 96 years for the lead and tobacco and mercury and flouride and bacon and red meat and asbestos-lined space heaters to kill my uncle. I'm not that old, yet I still somehow cling to life. Of course, the planet itself is now ablaze with heat and soaked in deadly toxins, with temperatures soaring to near 108 F predicted by a federal government agency this week, with daytime temperatures crashing to the mid-70s F by this weekend ... if we get that far. Comets threaten, and the contrails were especially thick yesterday... UFOs, I'd guess, spewing alien toxins, sugary cola, and misinformation!!!


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Professor Fate » Wed May 18, 2022 8:53 am

Scott_Conger wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 9:43 am
......maybe you'll turn me into a tree hugger
Do you dispose of oil and coolant into the dirt near your well, too?
SNARKY and GLIB.

These are at best, strange and misplaced comments that do not encourage the Model T hobby.
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed May 18, 2022 8:56 am

OH MY GAWD!! BLACK MOLD!


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Been Here Before » Wed May 18, 2022 9:47 am

For your entertainment:

Just remember when the Model T was introduced gasoline was considered a light fuel, and just a useless byproduct.

https://www.fordmodelt.net/m/gasoline.htm - " What Kind of Gasoline Should I Use In My Model T Ford?"

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1449089178

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 1487252839

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/6/ ... 1050447857

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1397045011


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by jiminbartow » Wed May 18, 2022 10:05 am

This thread was a very helpful thread that could have been one for folks to refer back to but it became way too political and it and its’ useful information may be endangered of getting deleted by admin. George John has posted a response on gasoline in an attempt to get the discussion back on track. Let’s keep it going in that direction or end it. Jim Patrick


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed May 18, 2022 10:20 am

When T's were introduced, gasoline was not commonly available outside of oil producing districts, where it was considered to be a waste product. Kerosene was what was in demand. That situation changed very quickly as automobiles, and Ford Ts in particular, began to flood the streets and roads. Between automobiles and electric lighting, demand for kerosene plummeted, and the demand for good quality gasoline skyrocketed. Refiners responded as quickly as they could. Demand for Diesel fuel was very low until after WWII. Today, Diesel is in high demand, and the airline industry consumes vast oceans of kerosene. Shipping consumes a lot of fuel, which I believe is still mostly heaver grades of fuel oil. The development of catalytic cracking made gasoline more widely available at low cost by allowing good quality gasoline to be produced from low gravity crude oil. The development of lead-based anti-knock additives allowed the economical production of vast quantities of excellent quality gasoline from crude oils of various quality.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed May 18, 2022 10:27 am

PS: Unleaded" motor gasoline remains a toxic substance, besides its flammability and potential explosivity. I suggest that all persons avoid frequent or careless contact with it, and store it safely, if you must store it at all.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Been Here Before » Wed May 18, 2022 3:40 pm

I am going to make a statement that will be either correct or incorrect.

Reviewing the 1908 Bulletin of Pharmacy, there was a letter correcting the purchase of a cleaning agent that was available at the time (1907/08). Equivalent to alcohol for cleaning was gasoline. Gasoline was the result of fractal distillation producing three agents that can be a cleaning agent. The first and lightest product was gasoline, second was Naphtha, and third was Benzene.

A later discussion states that when produced gasoline has an octane rating of 70.

The only dangers was that gasoline was very flammable.

Gasoline and the other byproducts could be toxic. But generally for cleaning alcohol and gasoline were equal in cleaning power.

Gasoline did not become dangerous until an octane booster was introduced in the form of tetraethyl lead.

A Model T motor will run in stock form on a pool gasoline octane rating of 70, so either Naphtha (octane of 64), or Benzene (octane of 114) could be used for the nostalgia of early Model T motoring.....


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed May 18, 2022 4:40 pm

"Gasoline" is a blend of hydrocarbon fractions within a fairly broad range. Octane equivalency varies widely within the gasoline range. Benzine is a component of many "natural" gasolines, and benzine is held to be a potent carcinogenic. Gasoline has always been dangerous, whether in its raw natural form or refined and replete with additives. It is flammable, explosive, a skin irritant, a probable carcinogen, an asphyxiating and intoxicating agent, and more. Many, iof not all, gasoline additives, past and present, are dangerous in and of themselves. As for ethanol, it has been one of Humanitys' great curses for the last several thousand years. It is a powerful intoxicant, addictive, and known to cause damage to every system of the human body, including the liver and the brain.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed May 18, 2022 4:53 pm

A Model T will run, more or less, on about any aromatic, combustible fluid. Octane equivalency is not important for stock model Ts, unless it is VERY low, and the car can be run successfully, with care, even on very low octane fuel, such as kerosene or kerosene blends, as long as the vapor pressure is such that the carburetor can gasify it and not such that it boils at or near ordinary ambient temperatures. I have run many engines many tens of thousands of miles on "drip" gasoline, which is a condensate of wet natural gas. It is typically of low octane, and vapor pressure varies with the seasons and how long the liquid has been held at atmospheric pressure. The more volatile components of the liquid have the highest octane equivalency, and are the first to evaporate under ordinary conditions. Natural gasoline that has a lot of the more volatile components, which are near-butane, can have good octane equivalency and will mgive excellent cold weather starting, but vapor lock and carburetor boilover will be issues in warmer weather or when underhood temperatures rise. After a few hours or days in the gas tank, the high volatiles will evaporate and the octane equivalency will decline, and the vapor lock problem will disappear.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed May 18, 2022 4:57 pm

I used to run "camp fuel" , or "white gas" which is naptha, in a Model A and in some old stationary engines. It worked pretty well, and cut way down on exhaust odor. It would knock in the Model A under load when the engine was warmed up, but not too much to drive the car normally. It's far too expensive to use now, if you can find any.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by jiminbartow » Wed May 18, 2022 9:50 pm

Pat. Didn’t the Model T run on turpentine in the day, used by drivers who couldn’t afford gasoline? I’m sure moonshine was also tried by some in an effort to save money. Free corn from the field distilled into moonshine. Except for the time it takes it can’t get much cheaper than that. Are there members here that have experimented with various flammable fuels in their T? With gasoline becoming so expensive it would be nice to have a list of compatible alternate fuels to run our T’s with. Jim Patrick


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed May 18, 2022 10:01 pm

Somewhere among early Ford ads or in an early owner's manual there is a statement on the virtues of gasoline as a motor fuel. I'll see if I can find it and quote it.

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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by JTT3 » Thu May 19, 2022 6:59 pm

Was natural gas ever used in model Ts? Seems I remember a carburetor that supposedly for a T that used natural gas or maybe it was propane?


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Been Here Before » Thu May 19, 2022 7:51 pm


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Craig Leach » Sat May 21, 2022 12:26 am

So there is a political tone to this thread. I caught my neighbors kid pouring 2 qts of black motor oil down a gofer hole when he changed the oil in his car. I'm sure this 30 something thinks it's environmentally safe to do because he ran his 5 qt capacity engine on 2 qts for a extended time offsetting the effects of refining crude. I sure hope he doesn't vote.
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat May 21, 2022 9:36 am

With gasoline becoming so expensive it would be nice to have a list of compatible alternate fuels to run our T’s with.

Kerosene now costs a lot more than gasoline, and I expect any other possible substitute does too.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat May 21, 2022 10:18 am

Propane $ is sky high. A system is probably available to run a T on propane. It would not be cheap. Crank starting might be a problem. Starting by other methods would be enhanced. Propane has a very high octane equivalency and about 90% of the BTU content of good gasoline. Carbon deposition would be reduced, and oil contamination would be reduced. Running propane can be hard on engine valves, since the cooling effect of gasoline micro droplets in the intake stream is lost when using propane, much like running a very lean mixture with gasoline. However, combustion efficiency is increased. This ought not be a problem with a T with modern valves in good condition. Placement of the propane tank would be a problem in most Model Ts. A roadster pickup or TT truck might be a candidate, but I would not put a propane tank in any enclosed space in any vehicle. Butane was once very cheap in the USA, and many applications were set up to run butane. Butane/propane are no longer cheap, and it's not a practical fuel for most applications anymore. Road taxes are still due if you run propane/butane or any other combustible fuel. The tax farmers will be coming for you electric car people soon, too. Right now, the rest of us are being made to subsidize you. If you are in a position to brew your own ethanol, it's unlikely that you can do it in an economically rational way, since brewing ethanol is an energy-intensive operation, and suitible inputs are usually quite expensive. There are issues with regulations and taxes, too. You'd do better to put an electric drive in a Model T, and pretend that doing so has any net benefits as pertains to cost, whether economic or environmental.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by JohnM » Sat May 21, 2022 10:37 am

If you are handy, have a pile of parts behind the barn, and a woodlot, maybe this is what you are looking for. :)

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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by John Codman » Sat May 21, 2022 1:14 pm

This is a MMO-type thread. I didn't read all of the comments but on a tour I would have no problem with E-10. I use Ethanol-free gas in the T around here because I don't drive it much, and Ethanol-free gasoline has about twice the storage life of E-10 (remember that the T fuel system is vented). I have had E-10 go bad in the tank; I have never had that issue with Ethanol-free gas. Also remember that E-10 absorbs water in a vented fuel system; I have dismantled and cleaned the T's carburetor on the road twice when I was in Massachusetts. At the time, the Bay State didn't allow the sale of Ethanol-free gasoline at the pumps.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat May 21, 2022 1:32 pm

Any ethanol-adulterated gasoline may loosen debris in older fuel systems and cause clogged screens or carburetor problems. This is usually a one-time issue when an old system is first exposed to ethanol gas. The solution is to remove any debris, and if the problem continues, it usually indicates a dirty fuel tank that needs remediation.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sat May 21, 2022 2:49 pm

Leave it a Model T forum to get nearly 50 replies, so far, to what seems to be a fairly simple question :lol:


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat May 21, 2022 2:53 pm

The question has no single answer.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sat May 21, 2022 7:14 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 2:53 pm
The question has no single answer.
I guess you're right, and since the OP did ask for "thoughts", he's getting his money's worth :)

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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Mark Gregush » Sun May 22, 2022 10:50 am

I run whatever regular unleaded gas comes out of the station pump. :D
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by perry kete » Sun May 22, 2022 10:57 am

I use whatever gas I syphon from my neighbor's car, so now I'll have to go ask him what he buys! :roll:
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by jiminbartow » Sun May 22, 2022 12:20 pm

I may be wrong, but due to the EPA regulations, I don’t think unleaded gas is even made anymore at the refineries If you want lead in your gas, you have to add it yourself. Jim Patrick

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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun May 22, 2022 3:24 pm

Been trying to understand the Leaded Gas Pro position with respect to Model Ts. The Con position is well documented.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline
1903 to 1914
Early fuels were termed "straight-run" gasolines and were byproducts from the distillation of a single crude oil to produce kerosene, which was the principal product sought for burning in kerosene lamps. Gasoline production would not surpass kerosene production until 1916. The earliest straight-run gasolines were the result of distilling eastern crude oils and there was no mixing of distillates from different crudes. The composition of these early fuels was unknown and the quality varied greatly as crude oils from different oil fields emerged in different mixtures of hydrocarbons in different ratios. The engine effects produced by abnormal combustion (engine knocking and pre-ignition) due to inferior fuels had not yet been identified, and as a result, there was no rating of gasoline in terms of its resistance to abnormal combustion. The general specification by which early gasolines were measured was that of specific gravity via the Baumé scale and later the volatility (tendency to vaporize) specified in terms of boiling points, which became the primary focuses for gasoline producers. These early eastern crude oil gasolines had relatively high Baumé test results (65 to 80 degrees Baumé) and were called Pennsylvania "High-Test" or simply "High-Test" gasolines. These would often be used in aircraft engines.
By 1910, increased automobile production and the resultant increase in gasoline consumption produced a greater demand for gasoline and the growing electrification of lighting produced a drop in kerosene demand, creating a supply problem. It appeared that the burgeoning oil industry would be trapped into over-producing kerosene and under-producing gasoline since simple distillation could not alter the ratio of the two products from any given crude. The solution appeared in 1911 when the development of the Burton process allowed thermal cracking of crude oils, which increased the percent yield of gasoline from the heavier hydrocarbons. This was combined with the expansion of foreign markets for the export of surplus kerosene which domestic markets no longer needed. These new thermally "cracked" gasolines were believed to have no harmful effects and would be added to straight-run gasolines. There also was the practice of mixing heavy and light distillates to achieve the desired Baumé reading and collectively these were called "blended" gasolines.
.... As late as June 1917, Standard Oil (the largest refiner of crude oil in the United States at the time) stated that the most important property of a gasoline was its volatility. It is estimated that the rating equivalent of these straight-run gasolines varied from 40 to 60 octane and that the "High-Test", sometimes referred to as "fighting grade", probably averaged 50 to 65 octane.
World War I
... When the U.S. entered the war in April 1917, the U.S. became the principal supplier of aviation gasoline to the Allies and a decrease in engine performance was noted. Soon it was realized that motor vehicle fuels were unsatisfactory for aviation, and after the loss of several combat aircraft, attention turned to the quality of the gasolines being used. Later flight tests conducted in 1937 showed that an octane reduction of 13 points (from 100 down to 87 octane) decreased engine performance by 20 percent and increased take-off distance by 45 percent. If abnormal combustion were to occur, the engine could lose enough power to make getting airborne impossible and a take-off roll became a threat to the pilot and aircraft.
U.S., 1918–1929
Engine designers knew that, according to the Otto cycle, power and efficiency increased with compression ratio, but experience with early gasolines during World War I showed that higher compression ratios increased the risk of abnormal combustion, producing lower power, lower efficiency, hot-running engines, and potentially severe engine damage. To compensate for these poor fuels, early engines used low compression ratios, which required relatively large, heavy engines with limited power and efficiency. ......
Between 1917 and 1919, the amount of thermally cracked gasoline utilized almost doubled. Also, the use of natural gasoline increased greatly. During this period, many U.S. states established specifications for motor gasoline but none of these agreed and they were unsatisfactory from one standpoint or another. Larger oil refiners began to specify unsaturatedmaterial percentage (thermally cracked products caused gumming in both use and storage while unsaturated hydrocarbons are more reactive and tend to combine with impurities leading to gumming). In 1922, the U.S. government published the first specifications for aviation gasolines (two grades were designated as "Fighting" and "Domestic" and were governed by boiling points, color, sulfur content, and a gum formation test) along with one "Motor" grade for automobiles. The gum test essentially eliminated thermally cracked gasoline from aviation usage and thus aviation gasolines reverted to fractionating straight-run naphthas or blending straight-run and highly treated thermally cracked naphthas. This situation persisted until 1929.
The automobile industry reacted to the increase in thermally cracked gasoline with alarm. Thermal cracking produced large amounts of both mono- and diolefins (unsaturated hydrocarbons), which increased the risk of gumming. Also, the volatility was decreasing to the point that fuel did not vaporize and was sticking to spark plugs and fouling them, creating hard starting and rough running in winter and sticking to cylinder walls, bypassing the pistons and rings, and going into the crankcase oil.[39] One journal stated, "on a multi-cylinder engine in a high-priced car we are diluting the oil in the crankcase as much as 40 percent in a 200-mile [320 km] run, as the analysis of the oil in the oil-pan shows"

--
Recap: Low grade gasoline promoted the development of engines with low compression ratios Thermal Cracked gas caused visible deposits in the oil pan, fouled plugs etc
--
Leaded gasoline controversy, 1924–1925
With the increased use of thermally cracked gasolines came an increased concern regarding its effects on abnormal combustion, and this led to research for antiknock additives. In the late 1910s, researchers such as A.H. Gibson, Harry Ricardo, Thomas Midgley Jr., and Thomas Boyd began to investigate abnormal combustion. Beginning in 1916, Charles F. Kettering of General Motors began investigating additives based on two paths, the "high percentage" solution (where large quantities of ethanol were added) and the "low percentage" solution (where only 0.53–1.1 grams per liter (0.071–0.147 oz/U.S. gal) were needed). The "low percentage" solution ultimately led to the discovery of tetraethyllead (TEL) in December 1921, a product of the research of Midgley and Boyd and the defining component of leaded gasoline. This innovation started a cycle of improvements in fuel efficiency that coincided with the large-scale development of oil refining to provide more products in the boiling range of gasoline. Ethanol could not be patented but TEL could, so Kettering secured a patent for TEL and began promoting it instead of other options.
The dangers of compounds containing lead were well-established by then and Kettering was directly warned by Robert Wilson of MIT, Reid Hunt of Harvard, Yandell Henderson of Yale, and Erik Krause of the University of Potsdam in Germany about its use. Krause had worked on tetraethyllead for many years and called it "a creeping and malicious poison" that had killed a member of his dissertation committee. On 27 October 1924, newspaper articles around the nation told of the workers at the Standard Oil refinery near Elizabeth, New Jersey who were producing TEL and were suffering from lead poisoning. By 30 October, the death toll had reached five.[43] In November, the New Jersey Labor Commission closed the Bayway refinery and a grand jury investigation was started which had resulted in no charges by February 1925. Leaded gasoline sales were banned in New York City, Philadelphia, and New Jersey. General Motors, DuPont, and Standard Oil, who were partners in Ethyl Corporation, the company created to produce TEL, began to argue that there were no alternatives to leaded gasoline that would maintain fuel efficiency and still prevent engine knocking. After several industry-funded flawed studies reported that TEL-treated gasoline was not a public health issue, the controversy subsided.
--
Recap: Both Ethanol and TEL were known as antiknock additives. The higher ratio of Ethanol to gas initially led to TEL and failed studies on its effect to a persons health led to its choice.
The Model T engine at this point was developed as a low compression engine running on, at best, a 60 octane rating. The need to prevent knocking with a higher grade octane rating should be satisfied with any of Today's gasoline octanes
--
Lead Gas (lead substitutes) affect on valve seats
https://blog.amsoil.com/what-is-a-lead- ... -need-one/
Lead also emerged as an effective way to protect against valve-seat recession, which can occur under high-rpm, high-heat, high-load conditions. This was observed by lead deposits under the valves
As the intensely hot exhaust valve hammers against the valve seat thousands of times per minute, the two components can momentarily fuse together in a process called “microwelding.”
Once the valve opens, the microweld tears apart. Multiply this by thousands of times and the valve seat deteriorates until the valve no longer seats properly. This leads to compression and power loss, in addition to catastrophic failure if the valve breaks off.
--
Recap: The Model T is not a high-rpm engine. It can be under high-load. The reference to "high-heat" needs to be qualified with a value range. Model T engines normally run at the same temperature range as Today's engines.
--
Conclusion:
There is no point in using Leaded Fuel because of its higher octane rating in a Model T (or any engine) with a compression ratio 7:1 or below.
Using Leaded Fuel or additives to an engine with hardened valve seats is also questionable as being necessary. However, for engines with unhardened valve seats that have never been replaced - then it would make sense to use it or an additive that is documented to protect unhardened valve seats. there are many advertised with somewhat ambiguous claims.
Aircraft fuels are for aircraft engines not low compression engines
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by John Codman » Sun May 22, 2022 4:33 pm

The issue isn't the lead. You don't need it. The issue is Ethanol, which absorbs water. If you drive your T a lot (enough that the gas in your tank never reaches about three months old) you are fine with with E-10. If you don't, you need to find non-ethanol gas or use a fuel stabilizer. Leaded Avgas is Waayy overkill for a model T. It does store well, but is illegal as a highway fuel, and does not provide any benefit that a much cheaper motor fuel with a bit of Stabil would not also accomplish.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun May 22, 2022 4:51 pm

Ethanol-adulterated gasoline will absorb water from the air or, any other source, it can and does decay into a corrosive, paint-like mess, and it has lower BTU content, or fuel value, than a good quality gasoline. It requires a range of additives beyond ethanol,, that are quite toxic, to be suitible for use in motor vehicles. Some of these, such as methyl tertiary ether, have been quite problematic. Ethanol does have a high octane equivalency, but so does plain water. Leaded fuels were in wide use for decades with no observable ill effects among ordinary people, including life-long urbanites and animals, such as birds, mice, and insects, which flourished in heavily trafficked urbanized environments to the point of being a public nuisance, and this in spite of numerous other sources of lead in these same environments. Plumbers, radiator repairmen, radio and TV repairmen, painters, auto mechanics, roofers, sheet metal workers, and others had long term, often intensive exposure to lead and lead compounds in addition to any exposure related to motor fuel, and yet a great number of them survived well past "retirement age".


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun May 22, 2022 4:52 pm

Mr. Codman is correct.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun May 22, 2022 6:35 pm

Here's what I do. I buy 87 octane "regular" gas. It probably has some ethanol in it. I don't care. The cars sit for 5 - 6 months and are driven for the balance of the year. No problems ever. No worries... :)


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun May 22, 2022 7:22 pm

Around here, pumps are labeled, "May contain up to 10% ethanol". Less is better. None is enough.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by speedytinc » Sun May 22, 2022 7:42 pm

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 6:35 pm
Here's what I do. I buy 87 octane "regular" gas. It probably has some ethanol in it. I don't care. The cars sit for 5 - 6 months and are driven for the balance of the year. No problems ever. No worries... :)
Our CA. poison, fuel replacement noticeably degrades much sooner.

I was off my modern harley for 2 months(daily driver) The bike would barely start. once started, it wouldnt idle without more manual throttle. I drained what I could & put fresh in. After the old fuel burned out of the system, she ran as normal. Only 2 month old fuel.

My Montana buddy just discovered the fuel degradation in his T after about 30 days. He was having trouble starting. Popping & farting. This is a T that RELIABLY starts 1/4 choke & 1/4 start pull. Theory is, the volatile stuff evaporates & vents out the carb. The liquid left in the bowl isnt good enough to fire the car. The solution is to drain the carb bowl before starting. The fresh fuel in the tank is still good & she starts easy as it should.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun May 22, 2022 7:49 pm

speedytinc wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 7:42 pm
Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 6:35 pm
Here's what I do. I buy 87 octane "regular" gas. It probably has some ethanol in it. I don't care. The cars sit for 5 - 6 months and are driven for the balance of the year. No problems ever. No worries... :)
Our CA. poison, fuel replacement noticeably degrades much sooner.

I was off my modern harley for 2 months(daily driver) The bike would barely start. once started, it wouldnt idle without more manual throttle. I drained what I could & put fresh in. After the old fuel burned out of the system, she ran as normal. Only 2 month old fuel.

My Montana buddy just discovered the fuel degradation in his T after about 30 days. He was having trouble starting. Popping & farting. This is a T that RELIABLY starts 1/4 choke & 1/4 start pull. Theory is, the volatile stuff evaporates & vents out the carb. The liquid left in the bowl isnt good enough to fire the car. The solution is to drain the carb bowl before starting. The fresh fuel in the tank is still good & she starts easy as it should.
Sounds like a mess there with CA gas. Lucky to live in Michigan I guess.


speedytinc
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by speedytinc » Sun May 22, 2022 7:57 pm

Lucky(or smarter) if you live anywhere but CA. Good weather is the trade off for socialist governance.
It wasnt always so, stay aware, its coming your way also.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by DHort » Mon May 23, 2022 12:10 am

Here in WI. Same as Jerry. 87 octane with up to 10% alcohol. We also have other stuff put in there because all the pollution from Chicago heads north and pollutes our clean air. I can leave my T's for 3-4 months and no problems starting them, even when the temp is in the 30's.

As my old buddy George use to say 'you gotta hold your tongue right'.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon May 23, 2022 8:30 am

I believe that hot, humid weather degrades ethanol-adulterated fuels more quickly than cool, dry weather. Ethanol adulterated fuel that is kept in a vapor-tight container will retain quality longer than the same fuel held in a vented container. Exposure to some metals may accellerate decomposition of ethanol fuel. Exposure to sunlight, such as might occur with ethanol fuel stored in a plastic container not designed for fuel storage, will destroy e-fuels quickly, besides being dangerous. If you must store gasoline, use a high quality, approved container that is intended for use with gasoline and keep it in a cool, dark, well-ventilated space. Storing gasoline is inherently dangereous, and should be avoided altogether where possible.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue May 24, 2022 5:14 pm

Concerning fuel for the Model T, Ford Motor Co stated the following:
"Experiments with various gases and liquids have proven that the most practical fuel to use in this country for automobile motors is gasoline. It can be conveniently stored in a comparatively small amount of space and it is not so volatile that there is any appreciable loss when kept in covered tanks."


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Professor Fate » Tue May 24, 2022 10:19 pm

I got soaked in gas [10% ethanol] today and was so relieved that it was lead free.... 😲
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Loftfield » Wed May 25, 2022 7:07 am

Ethyl Corporation (General Motors) did not have leaded gasoline widely available until mid-late 20's, so no cars made before that time require or benefit from lead in the gas.The lead was added so GM could produce engines with higher compression to get more HP from a smaller block, $$$$$.

I recently heard from a carburetor man who heard it from a decent chem prof that ethanol in gasoline reacts with yellow metals leading to problems of degradation. If true (we haven't yet heard it from NPR, PBS, or CNN so not yet believable) it would be of more concern for we who run brass and bronze carbs, i.e. ancient automobiles. Also, if true, we here in Western North Carolina will have to stop running our cars on local moonshine. Oh well, more for me!

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Charlie B in N.J.
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Wed May 25, 2022 9:27 am

On the Roadkill spin-off show Engine Masters the guys checked the difference in power/torque gains in a number of easily available fuels by dyno testing them on the same engine. Regular, high test, 100 octane avgas, Sunoco 116 octane racing fuel and E85. The results were quite impressive. Across the board from lowest to highest the torque and HP gains were minimal. Very low single digit gains. Now if you're at the track a 5 to 7 HP/torque gain would mean a lot but the price difference between regular 87 and Sunoco 116 octane negates it's use for street driving. What the bottom line was if your engine doesn't ping on regular use it. Sounds odd but that's what showed.
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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed May 25, 2022 9:44 am

The development and use of leaded fuel permitted raising HP output in low priced automobiles from around 1/10 HP per cubic inch in 1920 to around 2/10 HP per cubic inch by 1930 while reducing engine weight and increasing fuel efficiency. By 1940, HP per cubic inch was up to around 4/10 HP per cubic inch, and fuel consumption per HP delivered was down considerabley. This certainly helped put money in car makers' pockets, but it also put a lot of money in consumers' pockets by reason of increased efficiency and mulitplied the usefulness of automobiles, trucks, busses, and aircraft. It opened the door to rapid advances in commercial aviation, over-the-road trucking, helped shorten WWII, and made possible the production of large quantities of high quality gasoline from less than ideal grades of crude oil, making quality, low-priced fuel available widely to the masses. Leaded fuel had a great many benefits, and it was one of several key factors in making "modern living" possible for great masses of ordinary people.


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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed May 25, 2022 9:58 am

A Model T engine will perform the same on 70 octane gasoline as it will on 116 octane fuel, assuming all other characteristics of the two fuels are the same. A 350 CID 350 HP engine will run just fine on 70 octane fuel.... until you open the throttle past a certain point. As manifold pressure increases with more throttle opening, you will need progressively higher octane fuel to avoid devastating detonation, and at or near wide open throttle, octane requirements will be at or near 100 for a typical carbureted engine with HP output around 1 per CID. Depending on a particular engine's design, WOT octane requirement might be well over 100. I've driven high compression engines designed for 100 octane leaded fuel many tens of of thousands of miles on cheap "regular" leaded and non-leaded fuels with octane ratings from 87 to around 93. No harm will result IF you keep manifold pressure low enough to prevent detonation. You might need to shut the engine off in gear to prevent "dieseling". I've run a high compression 390 Ford FE engine on "drip"gasoline for a hundred thousand miles with no issues. The octane rating of that stuff was very low... probably below 50. NO problems, as long as the operator (me) was careful to avoid detonation.

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Re: Thoughts on type of gas

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Wed May 25, 2022 5:14 pm

Pretty much what the Engine Masters guys said. The high priced stuff isn't worth the $ as long as you don't detonate or hit the drag strip.
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